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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Mobileman is getting a little cocky, but iPhone is such a bad platform for some-one who really want a mobile computing device one can only hope it never ends up dumbing down the whole world.

    Surur
    What's wrong with it as a mobile computing device? I don't see it ever being great for heavy document editing (unless and until they support hard keyboards), but other than that, from the point of view of what the SDK (even taking into account what the HIGs "allow") and hardware permits to be done, it seems far superior to Palm to me, and more or less on par with WM (though WM has some advantages in some areas, and iphone has some advantages in other areas).

    And given how easy it is to program in Objective-C/cocoa vs. palm and WM, I think you're going to see a lot of extremely productivity-enhancing applications for iphone and the number of applications is going to grow faster than the other two platforms at this point. I also suspect that given the itunes publishing model you will see a much lower price point in a given category (primarily because the barrier to entry is reduced for small guys who don't have to deal with copy protection, billing, etc.) Programming for iphone is certainly a lot more "fun" than WM and palm, and that's worth something. (WM is also a lot more "fun" than Palm, which hasn't helped Palm much.)
  2.    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    What's wrong with it as a mobile computing device?
    Only being allowed to have an app if it aligns with Apple's business plans is objection enough. Where do I sign up for my barcode tattoo?

    Surur
  3. #43  
    Feh. As long as for a reasonable price I can buy the software that does what I need, I don't care how it got there. Even better if I'm allowed to write my own software and put it on there for my own use - yet to be seen if that will work unless you pay the $99.

    In any event. Apple's business plan is tangential to the usefulness of the device (so long as they don't limit things TOO much.)
  4.    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    In any event. Apple's business plan is tangential to the usefulness of the device (so long as they don't limit things TOO much.)
    Clearly not - here's looking at VOIP, unlocking and Amazon MP3store software.

    Surur
  5. #45  
    They already said VOIP is ok (albeit not over edge, but no one though AT&T was going to allow that anyway). I don't care about unlocking (and you honestly didn't think that was coming, did you?) And it's not clear to me that the amazon mp3store software doesn't fly - you can definitely stream remote songs and play songs from your own directory, and you can address other software on the device by url. You may not be able to directly write songs into the normal iphone music library for playing by the built-in software, but if I was amazon I would:

    1) application allows you to buy, and then copies to program's own directory.
    2) application can play music in "ipod" software by sending openURL message to it
    3) desktop application keeps track of your purchases, and downloads into iphone for sync into the normal place when you get back to your desktop.


    Like I said, if they lock it down TOO much, then that's not good. I suspect pretty much all the things people really want will be there.
  6.    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    They already said VOIP is ok (albeit not over edge, but no one though AT&T was going to allow that anyway). I don't care about unlocking (and you honestly didn't think that was coming, did you?) And it's not clear to me that the amazon mp3store software doesn't fly.
    Those are just examples of the top of my head. The list of "unsuitable" software is very long indeed.

    You obviously "dont care" if Apple dictates your every move, which is why you have an iPhone.

    Surur
  7. #47  
    Surur - you saying the "list is long indeed" doesn't make it so. The "parade of horribles" i've seen mentioned elsewhere is mostly limited to software that needs to talk to the dock connector, voip/bandwidth-intensive stuff on Edge, and (maybe) virtual machines. You haven't really added to that list.

    If that is the complete list, I'd hardly call it "dictating my every move." Frankly, I predict we get JVM and even browsers that support plug-ins, and that the only thing verboten will end up being GSM unlocking and voip on Edge. I think the dock thing is more a technical omission than a strategy, and that it will show up at some point.
  8.    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    Surur - you saying the "list is long indeed" doesn't make it so. The "parade of horribles" i've seen mentioned elsewhere is mostly limited to software that needs to talk to the dock connector, voip/bandwidth-intensive stuff on Edge, and (maybe) virtual machines. You haven't really added to that list.

    If that is the complete list, I'd hardly call it "dictating my every move." Frankly, I predict we get JVM and even browsers that support plug-ins, and that the only thing verboten will end up being GSM unlocking and voip on Edge. I think the dock thing is more a technical omission than a strategy, and that it will show up at some point.
    Its called "dictating your every move" because if Apple does not like an app it can simply refuse to release it. That you cant see the gilded cage is beyond me.

    Lets see which of my software wont work so well under the iPhone Regime.

    SlingPlayer Mobile (high bandwidth)
    Skype (high bandwidth)
    Newsbreak Podcast downloader (background download)
    Coreplayer (background play not allowed)
    AE Buttonplus (cant use unreleased API's, background services not allowed)
    Windows Live Search (obvious reasons, but also bandwidth)
    Opera Mini (No java)
    Pocket snap (screenshot software, no background software)
    TomTom (no bluetooth or dock support)
    Sprite Backup (cant back up if you can only see your own directory, can you)
    Total Commander (file manager, same reason)
    Voice speed dial (cant launch other apps)
    UI Tweaker (obviously)
    MochaFTP (FTP server for WM, no background apps)
    Dockware (shows your pictures as a slideshow when your phone gets docked, cant access your pictures or maybe even sense when its docked)
    Bluetooth explorer (bluetooth FTP client, not in the SDK)
    Mortscript (scripting software, not allowed)
    Messenger (Background apps)
    Search (cant see other directories)
    Internet sharing (high bandwidth)

    Thats just from the apps that's installed on my device. I'm pretty used to my freedoms, thank you.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 03/10/2008 at 07:15 PM.
  9. #49  
    You are cheating a bit.

    SlingPlayer Mobile - I said high bandwidth ON EDGE. And, really, can you imagine using slingplayer on Edge? it would be horrible.

    Skype: again, they'll allow it on wifi, just not edge.

    As for your background play stuff, it's a red herring. They'll allow background operations. They already did so for AIM, the API is there and not disabled (as it easily could have been). They may be picky, or not, but there will be apps that allow background operations.

    I have no idea what AE Buttonplus is, but I'm not sure why it would require unreleased APIs.

    Java has already been announced by Sun, and I doubt they would have announced it if they thought they were going to be prevented from distributing it.

    Screenshot software works fine.

    TomTom: agreed (so far)

    Backup software is not really necessary since everything is always mirrored in the backup dir on the host PC (but it would be nice to wear belt AND suspenders).

    File manager: agreed. But in the iphone paradigm, i'm not sure why it's necessary. Things are objects, not files, and you can ask other (cooperative) programs to tell you what they've got.

    Voice speed dial: you can too launch other apps if they respond to openURL messages. They even tell you how to do it in the iphone OS api document. In fact, this one is particularly trivial as ANY application can dial the phone with a single line of code. Additionally, any application can access the address book, and any application can access the mic.

    UI Tweaker: good. People waste too much time on that ;-)


    Dockware: you absolutely CAN access your pictures - they have an official API for this, including built-in UI elements, etc. You can also sense the dock, I think, by monitoring the battery/power connection. You just can't send/receive data from the dock.


    Bluetooth explorer: yep. I kind of think bluetooth is coming to the API, but who knows.

    Mortscript: yep. Though, it's not clear to me that a "script" is a program. I think they'll allow script interpreters so long as they run in the sandbox. OS X, of course, already has ports of perl, tcl, etc.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    SlingPlayer Mobile - I said high bandwidth ON EDGE. And, really, can you imagine using slingplayer on Edge? it would be horrible.
    Although it takes a bit to connect, once so ...

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  11. #51  
    what kind of edge bandwidth are you getting? I tried it once (on my laptop using tethering) and it was absymal.
  12.    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    You are cheating a bit.

    SlingPlayer Mobile - I said high bandwidth ON EDGE. And, really, can you imagine using slingplayer on Edge? it would be horrible.
    The iphone is not going to stay EDGE, is it, not to mention the many people who think 2.0 will come out the same time as a 3G iphone

    Skype: again, they'll allow it on wifi, just not edge.
    Works fine over HSDPA, which will defnitely come this year to the iPhone.


    As for your background play stuff, it's a red herring. They'll allow background operations. They already did so for AIM, the API is there and not disabled (as it easily could have been). They may be picky, or not, but there will be apps that allow background operations.
    You are pretty optimistic. Will the apps on my list not made by a multi-billion company be allowed to multi-task too?

    I have no idea what AE Buttonplus is, but I'm not sure why it would require unreleased APIs.
    Its button remapping software. I suspect strongly Apple would not want people to mess with the very few buttons available on the iPhone. What if I want a double tap on my home button to launch voice speed dial?

    Java has already been announced by Sun, and I doubt they would have announced it if they thought they were going to be prevented from distributing it.
    Of course they will. Its explicitly forbidden.

    Screenshot software works fine.
    How do you take a screenshot of an app if you are not allowed to multi-task?

    Backup software is not really necessary since everything is always mirrored in the backup dir on the host PC (but it would be nice to wear belt AND suspenders).
    Would it not be nice to be able to do a restore while away from home?

    File manager: agreed. But in the iphone paradigm, i'm not sure why it's necessary. Things are objects, not files, and you can ask other (cooperative) programs to tell you what they've got.
    How PalmOS.

    UI Tweaker: good. People waste too much time on that ;-)
    Steve Jobs's way or the highway?

    Dockware: you absolutely CAN access your pictures - they have an official API for this, including built-in UI elements, etc. You can also sense the dock, I think, by monitoring the battery/power connection. You just can't send/receive data from the dock.
    But can you override the normal behaviour of the system (battery charging icon, screen goes off)

    Mortscript: yep. Though, it's not clear to me that a "script" is a program. I think they'll allow script interpreters so long as they run in the sandbox. OS X, of course, already has ports of perl, tcl, etc.
    Mortscript is basically an interpreted language. Thats explicitly forbidden.

    There's more than enough problems with the Apple model to show it a clearly crippled, shacked platform.

    Surur
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    what kind of edge bandwidth are you getting? I tried it once (on my laptop using tethering) and it was absymal.
    eww...I don't use edge, have had 3g since late 2005

    In my post above I linked to a Youtube vid showing Sling over Edge on a WM Dash--like I said, it's not fast to connect but once so, it fairly decent and there are lots of reports from users who use it with little to no issues. granted, 3g+ is always better, but I wouldn't put Edge as a knockout punch to using Sling...jmo.

    either way, sling can use edge and/or Wifi--so that would still be a nice program to have on the iPhone, especially with that huge/high res screen...

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  14. #54  
    1) you wanna bet on the multitask? they could have disabled one api function, but they left it in. And AIM already must use it. I added about 5 lines to my program and it's now sitting around in the background (doing nothing). I am sure they won't allow crappy programmers like me to do it for no reason, but if the software requires background operation, it will be permitted background operation.

    2) you wanna bet on java/interpreted languages? I am absolutely certain JVM will be released for iphone.

    I don't care what the HIGs say. Both of these will be there on whatever day in June this all gets released. The thing with you seems to be, however, that even if they do allow this, you won't budge; you'll still argue that you are shackled.

    ps: as for overriding charging icons and such, don't know. You can override some status bar behaviors, I noticed (like hiding it), but I haven't played with that stuff at all. My application makes use of a toolbar that switches between multiple screens, tables with custom cells, some text entry fields, some animation, file i/o (albeit just .plists), some minor event hooking ("notifications" in apple parlance) and a little bit of graphics. That's about all I can be sure of at this point.

    I did read up and see that any application can register a custom url scheme, which appears to be the preferred method of inter-process communication, though there seems to be discussion of RPC-style stuff in the manual as well.
  15.    #55  
    I will easily accept the bet regarding a JVM. Apple did not set up all these barriers to them have them circumvented by an uncontrolled virtual machine.

    We shall see about multi-tasking,but even there I think its much more likely than not.
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier
    SlingPlayer Mobile - I said high bandwidth ON EDGE. And, really, can you imagine using slingplayer on Edge? it would be horrible.
    Although it takes a bit to connect, once so ...
    I agree. I use SlingPlayer Mobile on my Dash on Tmo (itself a mediocre EDGE network), and it really wasn't that bad... certainly tolerable and useable while waiting for flights, etc. But then I've also used SlingPlayer on Sprint's 1xrtt Vision... now *that* was bad, but still better than nothing...
  17. #57  
    Anyone else think it's funny that the iPhone is marketed as such an amazing multimedia phone with YouTube as one of the main selling points, yet they disallow any other kind of streaming media? If YouTube is ok why not SlingPlayer? Because Jobs says so, that's why!
    Visor Edge + VisorPhone -> Samsung i300 -> Treo 300 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755
  18. #58  
    Who said they "disallow any other kind of streaming media?" There is an entire chapter in the developer's manual on how to stream video. Sling has already said slinglayer is coming. The only thing Apple has said is no VOIP on Edge.

    From the manual:

    To initiate video playback, you must know the URL of the file you want to play. For files your
    application provides, this would typically be a pointer to a file in your application’s bundle; however,
    it can also be a pointer to a file on a remote server. You use this URL to instantiate a new instance of
    the MPMoviePlayerController class. This class presides over the playback of your video file and
    manages user interactions, such user taps in the transport controls (if shown). To initiate playback,
    simply call the play method of the controller.
    Last edited by cmaier; 03/11/2008 at 11:43 AM.
  19.    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    Who said they "disallow any other kind of streaming media?" There is an entire chapter in the developer's manual on how to stream video. Sling has already said slinglayer is coming. The only thing Apple has said is no VOIP on Edge.
    I know you have an EDGE phone, but most of the readers have moved on to 3G years ago, and see no need to be shackled to WIFI anymore.

    Surur
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    I know you have an EDGE phone, but most of the readers have moved on to 3G years ago, and see no need to be shackled to WIFI anymore.

    Surur
    What does any of that have to do with slingplayer? You are assuming two things, neither of which has been stated by Apple:

    1) no high-bandwidth stuff, including video, on edge. It's possible, of course, but I suspect the problem with VOIP is the revenue loss to AT&T, not the bandwidth.

    2) that if no high-bandwidth stuff is permitted on Edge, it won't be permitted on HSDPA.

    That's a heck of an extrapolation from "no VOIP on edge."

    Personally, I believe the rules are:

    1) video streaming on edge is ok. There is nothing in the HIGs or SDK that says it isn't, however they do explicitly prohibit VOIP on edge. They tell you how to stream video and audio, and dedicate a whole chapter to it.

    2) video streaming on 3G will be okay. VOIP on 3G will not be okay. Because it isn't the bandwidth that matters, it's the lost voice minute revenue to AT&T.

    I have seen nothing, other than my own (and your) conjecture, that indicates they will limit slingplayer, youtube competitors, etc. in any way.
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