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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Knowing some of my favourite apps are prohibited tells me more than enough, thank you. You are apologizing for Apple.
    Ofcourse anytime somebody disagrees with the great Surur, they are labled an apologist. You claimed the SDK turned out as badly as it was expected. I have given examples of real developers that disagree with you. I guess they are apple apologists also.


    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    One little gem called Opera Mini comes to mind. Of course on an iPhone this may not be much missed
    agreed, it won't be missed.


    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Thats a hilarious statement. You cant really believe it, do you?
    far be it from Sun to ever use litigation to get their way. Just ask Microsoft about that.
  2.    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    Ofcourse anytime somebody disagrees with the great Surur, they are labled an apologist. You claimed the SDK turned out as badly as it was expected. I have given examples of real developers that disagree with you. I guess they are apple apologists also.
    A few glitzy apps have blinded you. Before the SDK announcement we expected the apps to be controlled by Apple, iTunes to the only way to get apps, and no access to the dock. All that has come true, plus even more. Its actually worse than expected.

    far be it from Sun to ever use litigation to get their way. Just ask Microsoft about that.
    So next Styletap will sue Apple so the iPhone will run PalmOS apps also? Really? And can I sue Apple so I can play my WMA's on the iPhone too?

    Surur
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    A few glitzy apps have blinded you. Before the SDK announcement we expected the apps to be controlled by Apple, iTunes to the only way to get apps, and no access to the dock. All that has come true, plus even more. Its actually worse than expected.



    So next Styletap will sue Apple so the iPhone will run PalmOS apps also? Really? And can I sue Apple so I can play my WMA's on the iPhone too?

    Surur

    Those few "glitzy app" look really nice. An AOL IM client, some awesome looking games, a PIM replacement, a medical and drug database app used by hundreds of thousands of doctors, and more.


    Yes, you can sue Apple for whatever you want. All it takes is a lawyer.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Not much wriggle room there, is there.
    Hard to say at this point. Language like that has appeared with respect to other HIGs and has meant nothing. That, and the fact that AOL AIM was demo'd during the "event," leads me to believe that, at the very least, exceptions will be made.

    I also think you are reading too much into the "programs that run other programs" thing. I think they were targetting launchers and things like the jailbreak over-the-air software installer, and they didn't choose their language carefully enough.
  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    Those few "glitzy app" look really nice.
    And that's what iPhone owners are all about. Do you also buy 5 pairs of trainers per year and use tooth whitener?

    Surur
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    And that's what iPhone owners are all about. Do you also buy 5 pairs of trainers per year and use tooth whitener?

    Surur

    Thats Surur for you, he loves to make assumptions of people based on the cell phone usage.
  7.    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    Hard to say at this point. Language like that has appeared with respect to other HIGs and has meant nothing. That, and the fact that AOL AIM was demo'd during the "event," leads me to believe that, at the very least, exceptions will be made.
    Whether Apple allow exceptions for their closest friends like Google and AOL does not mean much for the regular coder or competition, does it not.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmaier View Post
    I also think you are reading too much into the "programs that run other programs" thing. I think they were targetting launchers and things like the jailbreak over-the-air software installer, and they didn't choose their language carefully enough.
    An Application may not itself install or launch other executable code by any means, including without limitation through the use of a plug-in architecture, calling other frameworks, other APIs or otherwise.
    This is clearly a very carefully written, very broad restriction to prevent loopholes to Apple's control of app distribution. If you allow any other virtual machine on there then Apple's guidelines and control become almost meaningless, does it not?

    As Rob Sayre from Mozilla says

    Apple Bans Firefox, SpiderMonkey, Lisp, Lua, Ruby, Python, Rhino, Java, Opera, .NET, Squeak, Quake, Unreal, Second Life, GCC, GDB, GNOME, KDE, Photoshop, Word, Excel, Flash, Freetype and Zork
    March 6th, 2008

    Apple iPhone SDK Agreement: “No interpreted code may be downloaded and used in an Application except for code that is interpreted and run by Apple’s Published APIs and builtin interpreter(s)… An Application may not itself install or launch other executable code by any means, including without limitation through the use of a plug-in architecture, calling other frameworks, other APIs or otherwise.”
    http://blog.mozilla.com/rob-sayre/20...ava-opera-gcc/

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 03/10/2008 at 11:16 AM.
  8. #28  
    The technical quality of the sdk and development environment is outstanding - far better than what Microsoft or Palm provides, even at this early stage. The only thing that I find awkward is that there isn't a good "synch" architecture (at least I haven't found it). Palm, for example, has a fairly robust set of desktop and mobile API's for syncing information via the dock. I expect most software will instead rely on wireless synch, which is nice in some ways but, from a developer point of view, means we have to invest in servers and from a user point of view means having to trust a developer to host data. Alternatively, on the desktop we can spelunk through the backup directories, I suppose.

    I'll withhold my final opinion on the "goodness" of the overall SDK announcement until I hear whether Apple has accepted me in the iphone developer program :-)
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Whether Apple allow exceptions for their closest friends like Google and AOL does not mean much for the regular coder or competition, does it not.





    This is clearly a very carefully written, very broad restriction to prevent loopholes to Apple's control of app distribution. If you allow any other virtual machine on there then Apple's guidelines and control become almost meaningless, does it not?

    Surur
    Not necessarily. Again, I'll withhold judgment until we see whether and to what degree Apple decides to enforce all this.

    And, from a user perspective, I don't care about the regular coder or competition; there's almost no competition in software as it is, anyway. As a coder, I'd like to be free to write my own IM app and distribute it on itunes. I suspect that once Apple decides to let a category in (AOL AIM, for example) it won't discriminate against smaller developers in that same category. But, of course, that's a guess, and I suppose we'll find out soon enough.

    If Apple does choose to discriminate on the developer level (as opposed to the category level), I'll join you with the torches and pitchforks. If they simply refuse to allow any background apps by anyone, I will be disappointed at their stupidity, but I won't take personal offense.
  10. #30  
    Maybe the French or some other EU entity will force Apple's hand (again)... when you're small or the underdog, you also have greater freedom and less rules. When you're topdog or a much bigger gorilla, the rules you need to comply with change... Apple is now clearly a force to be reckoned with in the mobile industry, and they are and will be reckoned with...
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by mobileman View Post
    Did I say WM "does really bad", or did I say its getting beat by both Blackberry and Apple in the US. If all you care about is little OS updates to an aging OS, than WM is a great choice (I guess).

    Xperia looks nice, cant wait to see how big of a loan I will need to take to buy one.

    WM keeps changing itself. I don't get the "aging" part.

    It kind of seems like MS has little interest in Windows Mobile as a viable platform going foward. In the US at least, they have lost the enterprise market to Blackberry and the consumer market to Apple. It just seems like they haven't had any response at all.

    Actually you did say they're doing bad and seem to be abandoning their OS, at least that's what it seems to me. I was just saying in that other post that that can't be because they keep releasing phones with their OS and updating their OS. Even if RIM has more market share, they must still have enough of a market to keep going.

    As for consumers, WM is better for people who actually can use it's functions. The consumer market is more varied and of course they can't take the lead in that since many people still don't even understand smartphones. I don't know about it all going to Apple either. For one, the iPhone is still expensive and many get a phone that has a subsidy. Maybe in large metro areas where people tend to spend more(although people still carry lots of other phones here in Chicago). But what about mid to smaller areas? Has the iPhone really penetrated to all those areas that much?
    Last edited by The Phone Diva; 03/10/2008 at 03:05 PM.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    WM keeps changing itself. I don't get the "aging" part.
    Well... Not that I'm a fanboy of Windows OR Mac but it seems that a lot of Mac users feel that anything Windows is aging even though Mac OSX is built on an OS that predates Windows by quite some time...

    Age, in my opinion, is completely irrelevant in this discussion.
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  13. #33  
    i think the "ageism" has to do more with the perceived age of the INTERFACE than with the age of the OS. (Mac OS X's BSD core is also used here and there in windows, btw. For example, the network stack. And most of Mac OS X is considerably newer than most of desktop Windows, ignoring .NET which still isn't used widely in the OS. Even much of the Mac OS layers that are similar to nextstep have changed considerably since those days).

    WM's UI still feels rooted, on the whole, in desktop operating systems. Palm's feels rooted in PDAs. RIMs feels like it's meant for phones. iphone "feels" like something different altogether, almost futuristic and uniquely adapted for mobile multimedia communications (too bad its over such small pipes).

    It's all subjective, of course. But I think that's what people are talking about when they talk about the age of WM; not so much the fact that it has a relatively modern file handle API compared to POSIX, but the fact that it generally relies on menus and buttons and keyboards in a way that is reminiscent of a tiny desktop computer.
  14. #34  
    Reinvention = the key to avoid aging and becoming obsolete. On both platforms.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    Reinvention = the key to avoid aging and becoming obsolete. On both platforms.
    Well said.
    Grant Smith
    A+, Net+, MCPx2, BSIT/VC, MIS

    eNVENT Technologies
    Use your imagination.
    --
    Sprint HTC Evo 4G

    DISCLAIMER: The views, conclusions, findings and opinions of this author are those of this author and do not necessarily reflect the views of eNVENT Technologies.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    WM keeps changing itself. I don't get the "aging" part.

    It kind of seems like MS has little interest in Windows Mobile as a viable platform going foward. In the US at least, they have lost the enterprise market to Blackberry and the consumer market to Apple. It just seems like they haven't had any response at all.

    Actually you did say they're doing bad and seem to be abandoning their OS, at least that's what it seems to me. I was just saying in that other post that that can't be because they keep releasing phones with their OS and updating their OS. Even if RIM has more market share, they must still have enough of a market to keep going.

    As for consumers, WM is better for people who actually can use it's functions. The consumer market is more varied and of course they can't take the lead in that since many people still don't even understand smartphones. I don't know about it all going to Apple either. For one, the iPhone is still expensive and many get a phone that has a subsidy. Maybe in large metro areas where people tend to spend more(although people still carry lots of other phones here in Chicago). But what about mid to smaller areas? Has the iPhone really penetrated to all those areas that much?

    I reread my quote many times. I did not say thats its doing bad. But now I will. In the US, it is doing bad. It has lost market share to both RIM and Apple. There hasn't been a major OS update in years. Supporting these devices in the enterprise is incredibly frustrating (I know, I do it for a living).
    Last edited by mobileman; 03/10/2008 at 03:30 PM.
  17. #37  
    Losing market share=doing bad IMO, LOL! Of course maybe it depends on just how much they lost.

    I view WM5 and 6 as upgrades over WM2002/2003 and all it's versions. WM 6.1 is coming. I would rather see continuous updates than nothing at all like Palm. They may have started working on WM7. I see bits and pieces about it.

    Funny how I never had one major problem on any WM device, ever. And NO IT access for me since I'm freelance.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    Losing market share=doing bad IMO, LOL! Of course maybe it depends on just how much they lost.

    I view WM5 and 6 as upgrades over WM2002/2003 and all it's versions. WM 6.1 is coming. I would rather see continuous updates than nothing at all like Palm. They may have started working on WM7. I see bits and pieces about it.

    Funny how I never had one major problem on any WM device, ever. And NO IT access for me since I'm freelance.

    yes, losing marketshare = doing bad. Especially for a platform that has been around for years.

    As for my comments on enterprise support, it is a far more difficult device to support on the handheld level and server side compared to RIM.
  19. #39  
    Sure, because RIM is easy out of the box.

    You can mess up with WM if you don't know what you're doing. Although most problems can actually be fixed by the user, many just don't know how. It's funny how many people don't realize they need to shut down programs or reboot their phone to clear up memory, and that's why their phone is slowing down and/or freezing.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  20.    #40  
    Mobileman is getting a little cocky, but iPhone is such a bad platform for some-one who really want a mobile computing device one can only hope it never ends up dumbing down the whole world.

    Surur
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