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  1. zeze22's Avatar
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       #1  
    OK, I ended my starf*c*er relationshiop with the iphone and am well over the honeymoon period.

    After being offended with AT&T's cs, I am back with Palm (755p) and Sprint. I ate the $175 fee to be rid of them.

    I have owned the Q9c, the Centro and the 755p and spent considerable time with Mogul.

    I also owned the Blackberry 8830 for a few days, and cannot believe that the complaints are that PALM is the antiquated system.

    Let's put aside aesthetic differences and sensory preferences (lagtime, etc.) that divide WM6 and Palm users.

    Let's instead focus on objective criteria.

    BB is nearly impossible to use to stream anything, from radio to video. The included player won't and third party app's (the only two- XPlayer and Bee) will not open links from the browser. but only nativey, if they work at all. Once running, they are choppy and skip alot. 192kbps (Radio Paradise) on EVDO is out o fthe question.

    Its only doc-editing app is absurdly expensive and incomplete. Included is NOTHING for doc-editing.

    Mac syncing? Niet. Pocketsync uses the horrific isync system from five years ago.

    Its messaging software lumps all incoming activity (missed calls, voicemails, emails, etc.) into a cramped, single space list with little to distinguish the types.

    Its calendar's only detailed view is the day (or agenda) view. Other views show no appointment details at all.

    The only viable third party scheduling app is not much better, and still offers no grid-view for weeks.

    The browser is cramped and massacres webpages in rendering. Stay away from non-mobile sites.

    Various PIM apps (email, scheduler, maps) do not link or refer to one another.

    I have to say that I am shocked that this is a viable competitor at all. This is like an early-nineties OS.

    What am I missing?
  2. #2  
    You're not missing anything - one of the main reasons the BB has become such a behemoth has little or nothing to do with actual capabilities - here's what I mean:

    - I call it the 'sheep' syndrome. People flock to things based on the masses - 'my neighbor/friend/co-worker/roommate/etc got a 'Blackberry' and I must as well, to be cool. It's all about marketing and perception. RIM has done a great job lately with getting their product visibly placed in the Hollywood set - Entourage, other shows on HBO. It's hip, now, to have a Blackberry (and I can't even believe that as I type it). The iPhone will certainly dislodge some of that, but RIM is in now, with the John Mayer crowd. Gad.

    - they do the basics very well - email and overall device stability. Many of the items you pointed out, while very valid, only apply to a small subset of users. (how many people really think they're going to edit docs on a handheld? I do it, and others might as well, but most people don't walk into a carrier retail store and declare -'hey, I want to edit Excel spreadsheets on a handheld!' - no one THINKS they need that functionality). Thus, that type of thing just isn't a requirement for the masses.

    - RIM has won over the mindshare at the carrier retail level - if you walk into any carrier store, and say 'I want to do a lot of texting, tons of email, and minimal other stuff' (which is what 90% of potential buyers will say), every time the sales rep in that store will lead you over to the RIM devices. Every time.

    - device pricing - RIM has really gotten their devices down to price points that reach the mass buyer. Pearls for $49 and free. The Curve at AT&T for $99. That kills more-capable devices due to sheer price advantage.

    Right or wrong, agree or disagree, that's how RIM has made their mark so far. Time will tell if they're able to maintain that position. I'm hoping not.
  3. zeze22's Avatar
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       #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyMac View Post
    You're not missing anything - one of the main reasons the BB has become such a behemoth has little or nothing to do with actual capabilities - here's what I mean:

    - I call it the 'sheep' syndrome. People flock to things based on the masses - 'my neighbor/friend/co-worker/roommate/etc got a 'Blackberry' and I must as well, to be cool. It's all about marketing and perception. RIM has done a great job lately with getting their product visibly placed in the Hollywood set - Entourage, other shows on HBO. It's hip, now, to have a Blackberry (and I can't even believe that as I type it). The iPhone will certainly dislodge some of that, but RIM is in now, with the John Mayer crowd. Gad.

    - they do the basics very well - email and overall device stability. Many of the items you pointed out, while very valid, only apply to a small subset of users. (how many people really think they're going to edit docs on a handheld? I do it, and others might as well, but most people don't walk into a carrier retail store and declare -'hey, I want to edit Excel spreadsheets on a handheld!' - no one THINKS they need that functionality). Thus, that type of thing just isn't a requirement for the masses.

    - RIM has won over the mindshare at the carrier retail level - if you walk into any carrier store, and say 'I want to do a lot of texting, tons of email, and minimal other stuff' (which is what 90% of potential buyers will say), every time the sales rep in that store will lead you over to the RIM devices. Every time.

    - device pricing - RIM has really gotten their devices down to price points that reach the mass buyer. Pearls for $49 and free. The Curve at AT&T for $99. That kills more-capable devices due to sheer price advantage.

    Right or wrong, agree or disagree, that's how RIM has made their mark so far. Time will tell if they're able to maintain that position. I'm hoping not.
    Thanks. Really thoughtful and sensible explanation.
  4. #4  
    Curious.... why does a BBerry require a unique data plan? I'd likely switch to the Curve today but doubling the cost of of my data plan always makes me balk.
  5. #5  
    Push email service
    at&t iPhone3G
  6. #6  
    But does that justify the extra bucks. Especially if you don't have push email?

    And help me understand the terminology. Push Email is when the email server sends you the email as it is recieved. Pull Email is when your device checks your email server periodically. Right?

    BBerry's are capable of both, while WM/Palm devices aren't necessarily capable of push but will pull email.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by coppertop View Post
    But does that justify the extra bucks. Especially if you don't have push email?

    And help me understand the terminology. Push Email is when the email server sends you the email as it is recieved. Pull Email is when your device checks your email server periodically. Right?

    BBerry's are capable of both, while WM/Palm devices aren't necessarily capable of push but will pull email.
    No, it doesn't justify the extra bucks, but it justifies the grasp BB has on ones gonads if they want a Blackberry device.
    at&t iPhone3G
  8. #8  
    I tried out the BB for 2 weeks and had the same experience. Also, the BB seemed to have poor sound quality with a very hollow or tin-like sound coming from the earpiece.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by coppertop View Post
    But does that justify the extra bucks. Especially if you don't have push email?

    And help me understand the terminology. Push Email is when the email server sends you the email as it is recieved. Pull Email is when your device checks your email server periodically. Right?

    BBerry's are capable of both, while WM/Palm devices aren't necessarily capable of push but will pull email.
    The extra plan cost is attributable because RIM device software (BES and BIS) run on a different server. There is licensing per device, as well as international costs (RIM is Canadian) that the carrier has to assume when customers choose those devices.

    While other devices can do push email, there is not that additional cost (usually) and so that additional special plan is not necessary.
    MMM | AntoineRJWright.com | BH | Jaiku

    Moved on to Symbian, but still will visit from time to time.
  10. #10  
    I never liked the blackberry. I always found the keyboard horrible (even worse than Palm's -- hard little round buttons cause my clumsy thumbs to slide all over the place).

    What killed RIM dead for me, however, was their dodgy architecture where they place a RIM server on top of the already buggy Exchange technology, and then introduce the unbelievable single-point-of-failure system where they process every single message at RIM HQ (leading to mass blackouts, such as the one many months ago). Insane.
    Editor-in-chief, iMore
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  11. glenada's Avatar
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    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by zeze22 View Post
    OK, I ended my starf*c*er relationshiop with the iphone and am well over the honeymoon period.

    After being offended with AT&T's cs, I am back with Palm (755p) and Sprint. I ate the $175 fee to be rid of them.

    I have owned the Q9c, the Centro and the 755p and spent considerable time with Mogul.

    I also owned the Blackberry 8830 for a few days, and cannot believe that the complaints are that PALM is the antiquated system.

    Let's put aside aesthetic differences and sensory preferences (lagtime, etc.) that divide WM6 and Palm users.

    Let's instead focus on objective criteria.

    BB is nearly impossible to use to stream anything, from radio to video. The included player won't and third party app's (the only two- XPlayer and Bee) will not open links from the browser. but only nativey, if they work at all. Once running, they are choppy and skip alot. 192kbps (Radio Paradise) on EVDO is out o fthe question.

    Its only doc-editing app is absurdly expensive and incomplete. Included is NOTHING for doc-editing.

    Mac syncing? Niet. Pocketsync uses the horrific isync system from five years ago.

    Its messaging software lumps all incoming activity (missed calls, voicemails, emails, etc.) into a cramped, single space list with little to distinguish the types.

    Its calendar's only detailed view is the day (or agenda) view. Other views show no appointment details at all.

    The only viable third party scheduling app is not much better, and still offers no grid-view for weeks.

    The browser is cramped and massacres webpages in rendering. Stay away from non-mobile sites.

    Various PIM apps (email, scheduler, maps) do not link or refer to one another.

    I have to say that I am shocked that this is a viable competitor at all. This is like an early-nineties OS.

    What am I missing?
    I tried the Blackberry Curve for a couple of days and HATED that trackball!
    Current Phone(s): HTC Inspire "4G" & Pre 2
  12. andrewj's Avatar
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    #12  
    I posted the following comparison earlier elsewhere in Treocentral. Perhaps it's better suited to this subforum. Some background: I've been a big fan of the Palm and have been using one since the late 1990s, adopted a Treo 700P in June 2006. However, switched to the BB8830 (Verizon) when I got fed up with decreasing/flaky battery life and trouble with the charger:

    Favoring Blackberry 8830 (with enterprise e-mail access)

    • Choice for smaller font size lets you view more text...this was a very welcome change.
    • The Gmail app is substantially better/faster on the BB than the 700P. However, it does have glitches, occasionally, complaining about problems with network access.
    • Faster with switching from browser to e-mail, etc., less unexplained pauses.
    • Browser seems more responsive and with smaller fonts, much easier to read and navigate NY Times on the BB than the 700P
    • Trackball is awesome for navigating through messages, Google Maps quickly
    • Lighter and thinner than the Treo 700P
    • Battery life substantially much better than the 700P (even when the 700P was working properly with the Sedio battery with the extended life; granted I had Chatter and Good running simultaneously). I can go overnight without a charge with the BB. Definitely couldn't do that with the Treo.
    • Text messaging works fine, none of the Verizon 700P bugginess/unexplained pauses.
    • Bluetooth works more reliably with the Jabra JX10. I would have occasional problems with pairing with the 700P.


    Favoring Treo 700P (with Goodlink (or Motorola Good))

    • Keyboard feels better on the Treo 700P, I like the discrete keys. The BB keys don't feel as distinct nor as solid.
    • Better synchronization of Outlook e-mail, with ability to move older messages (i.e. messages received prior to starting Good or BB service) to folders, and this is reflected on the device.
    • Better ability to navigate/move items to different folders with one handed keystrokes, i.e. I can archive a message from the inbox to a folder with two keyboard presses...this is a little clunky on the BB
    • After you move an item to a different folder, you're returned to the inbox, rather than staying with the message
    • Ability to see flags, such as replied or forwarded, next to the messages. This isn't clear on the BB.
    • Inbox is much cleaner on the Treo. I prefer Goodlink's philosophy rather than BB's philosophy of lumping everything in one area.
    • Separate memos from Outlook memos. Plus the way Outlook handles memos is kind of clumsy.
    • Narrower width of device allows easier one-handed operation
    • More third party applications, e.g. medical applications, than the BB. However, I mainly use my PDA for e-mail, checking my work schedule, so these third party applications aren't as useful


    Of note, people talk about streaming video and editing documents. I don't really use my phone for streaming. As for editing documents, I thought that the 700P implementation of Docs to Go was unusable: too slow to open, too slow to edit, too slow to close, that it really wasn't practical for editing documents.
  13. #13  
    I use my 700wx to connect to my corporate exchange server and I really couldnt ask for anything more.

    The BT is lacking...but I have found a headset that works ok.

    I really couldnt see a BB making me any more efficient or productive than I am now.
  14. #14  
    these are all great comments and I am glad i found this thread.

    i am currently starting the evaluation process on whether or not to move from Good (on Palm or WM devices) to a BES and Blackberry devices.

    i have never used a Blackberry device at any length, although have had to troubleshoot them a little.

    I LOVE Windows Mobile, and started back on Palm devices before they were even all in one smartphones (can you say M100..??)

    I am currently using a Treo 750v and a Samsung sch-i760 both WM6 with GMM 5. I personally can't complain, but still have to wonder if blackberry would be easier in terms of support for users. Most of my users are not power users in anyway, just email an calendar.

    i'll continue to monitor this thread for your input

    thanks,
    skp
  15. #15  
    One thing that has not been mentioned is the fact that Blackberry is in transition. It has gone from being a device for technology challenged executives who could not do more than email and talk on the phone if they wanted to to a sexy consumer centric device. I expect RIM and third party applications to evolve as this transition develops further.

    For example, Documents to Go is now available for Blackberry and I've read about at least one update (not sure which carrier) where Blackberry included it for free with the update. So, now you can edit and create Windows documents on your Blackberry.

    How soon we forget. The same thing just happened with Windows Mobile smartphones. The introduction of devices like my Motorola Q with its QWERTY keyboard made these devices attractive to the masses. THEN, we got the Windows updates and the third party apps that make the devices a joy to use.

    In my opinion, the Blackberry cannot meet my needs the way my Q9M can, but in the 2 years that it will take for me to be eligible for an upgrade, I'm sure the parity across all platforms will make my next choice in a PDA phone much more competitive.
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyMac View Post
    You're not missing anything - one of the main reasons the BB has become such a behemoth has little or nothing to do with actual capabilities - here's what I mean:

    - I call it the 'sheep' syndrome. People flock to things based on the masses - 'my neighbor/friend/co-worker/roommate/etc got a 'Blackberry' and I must as well, to be cool. It's all about marketing and perception. RIM has done a great job lately with getting their product visibly placed in the Hollywood set - Entourage, other shows on HBO. It's hip, now, to have a Blackberry (and I can't even believe that as I type it). The iPhone will certainly dislodge some of that, but RIM is in now, with the John Mayer crowd. Gad.

    - they do the basics very well - email and overall device stability. Many of the items you pointed out, while very valid, only apply to a small subset of users. (how many people really think they're going to edit docs on a handheld? I do it, and others might as well, but most people don't walk into a carrier retail store and declare -'hey, I want to edit Excel spreadsheets on a handheld!' - no one THINKS they need that functionality). Thus, that type of thing just isn't a requirement for the masses.

    - RIM has won over the mindshare at the carrier retail level - if you walk into any carrier store, and say 'I want to do a lot of texting, tons of email, and minimal other stuff' (which is what 90% of potential buyers will say), every time the sales rep in that store will lead you over to the RIM devices. Every time.

    - device pricing - RIM has really gotten their devices down to price points that reach the mass buyer. Pearls for $49 and free. The Curve at AT&T for $99. That kills more-capable devices due to sheer price advantage.

    Right or wrong, agree or disagree, that's how RIM has made their mark so far. Time will tell if they're able to maintain that position. I'm hoping not.
    How right you are. Most people call, text, and email with their phone. Nothing else. They wouldn't even think to use their phones for a calendar or an alarm clock. Let alone more advanced stuff.

    Also, Blackberries are status symbols. They say "I'm a serious business person; look I just sent you an email from somewhere other than my desk." How do you know? Well, if the boring text format wasn't a give away the "This message was sent from a Blackberry" caption leaves no doubt.

    And, as if that weren't enough, I cannot even tell you the number of times someone has asked me if my Q9M was a Blackberry (or if I've got the stereo earbuds plugged in even an iPhone).
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyMac
    I call it the 'sheep' syndrome. People flock to things based on the masses
    Along that note, I notice that the word "Blackberry" is almost now the de facto vernacular when referencing smartphones.

    Last year I had my Palm Treo sitting on my desk and a fellow employee was like, "Oh you have a Blackberry."
  18. #18  
    I was shopping for my wife, saw many phones and got her the Blackberry (which she truly wanted). NO questions, Palm OS is the absolutely, most SIMPLE, and EASIEST to use !!!!! Besides it is the most intuitive for me. I personally would have loved a foleo, just too bad they can't increase the screen size and take out the weight of the "brick".

    Palm, let's please see improved Hardware, the Software is almost PERFECT now that you have Chatter on board. Well done !
    ~* Peace
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    Along that note, I notice that the word "Blackberry" is almost now the de facto vernacular when referencing smartphones.

    Last year I had my Palm Treo sitting on my desk and a fellow employee was like, "Oh you have a Blackberry."
    Funny that you mention that. Last Friday night I was at a going away party for a co-worker and another co-worker say my 750 sitting on the table and the guy says "I like your Blackberry". I said thanks but it's a Treo. "Blackberry" has become the de facto term for smartphones just like "Tivo" has become the de facto term for any dvr not matter that it maybe a Directv DVR or some other non-Tivo brand.
    Are you trying to hurt me?
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lil_Sunshine View Post
    How right you are. Most people call, text, and email with their phone. Nothing else. They wouldn't even think to use their phones for a calendar or an alarm clock. Let alone more advanced stuff.

    Also, Blackberries are status symbols. They say "I'm a serious business person; look I just sent you an email from somewhere other than my desk." How do you know? Well, if the boring text format wasn't a give away the "This message was sent from a Blackberry" caption leaves no doubt.

    And, as if that weren't enough, I cannot even tell you the number of times someone has asked me if my Q9M was a Blackberry (or if I've got the stereo earbuds plugged in even an iPhone).
    Yeah, they do seem to be status symbols but alot people comment how much they like my 750 when they see it and it stands out in a good way from all of the BBs that the directors at the organization carry around. I also get my work email on the 750 using my company's Exchange server and it always amazes people at work that I can get my work email without having the Blackberry that they issue to the directors.
    Are you trying to hurt me?
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