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  1.    #1  
    There is an old saying which goes "Better be thought a fool than open your mouth and confirm it."

    David Pogue has long been slamming Windows Mobile devices to the New York Times readership, but in his recent review of the T-Mobile Shadow he laid it on so thickly that his bias was completely exposed. This resulted in a minor backlash from other sites that have reviewed the device more favorably, notably Matt Miller's site at the ZDNET Blog. In his 18 item point by point refutation he showed exactly how sloppy Pogue's review was. This kind of rebuttal post is not unusual. What was unusual was David Pogue actually showing up in the ZDNET comments section trying to reinforce his case - and failing pathetically and publicly e.g.

    Quote Originally Posted by palmsolo (aka Matthew Miller)
    4.1. Why pick on the unlock process - 11/09/07
    I agree with you Steve. Even the iPhone has a two part process to unlock it (button press and finger slide) so why should the Shadow or Windows Mobile 6 be held to a different standard? I personally want two button integrity and I am sure the people that I have called at 5 in the morning while I am getting ready for work now appreciate the lack of calls now too.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Pogue
    Reply4.1.1. iPhone - 11/09/07
    I DON'T hold the iPhone to s different standard. I find ITS 2-step unlock process excessive, too. And I criticized it in my review, exactly the same way. (Actually, it's even worse--it takes up to SIX STEPS to make a phone call, starting from sleep mode...) --Pogue
    Originally posted by David Pogue Reply4.2. button presses - 11/09/07
    What all of this boils down to is this: Some people don't care about extra steps. Windows Mobile people, like Windows people, have never cared about elegance or simplicity or streamlining of steps--and that is a TOTALLY LEGITIMATE stance. You get more excited about the length of the feature list--and no question, Microsoft's feature list is always longest--and this, too, is a totally legitimate opinion. But as a reviewer for non-technical people, I don't think you're in the majority. I will take elegance and simplicity over feature-list length every time! Some theater critics may love Sondheim, some food critics may love Daniel Bouloud--me, I love simplicity and elegance, whether it comes from Google or RIM or, yes, even Microsoft. As for your note about the 2-button press unlock: Remember, we're talking about a phone that, when its slider is closed in your pocket, has NO BUTTONS EXPOSED AT ALL. (OK, volume, but that's not going to make a phone call in your pocket if it gets struck by a pen or a dime.) So yes--2 button presses is excessive! --Pogue
    Quote Originally Posted by palmsolo (aka Matthew Miller)
    Reply4.2.1. The Call button is exposed... - 11/09/07
    and pressing in on this will call the last caller you talked to on your phone. The directional pad is exposed too so if the Send button was pressed and the directional pad rubbed up against something you could call anyone in your most recently called list inadvertently. I still think the Shadow does bring simplicity and "fun" to Windows Mobile. I can do most everything right from the new Neo Home screen thanks to the plug-ins. As a mobile geek I would love to customize these even more, but think your standard consumer will be just fine hanging just within the Home screen.
    Quote Originally Posted by AdamzP
    Reply4.2.2. NO BUTTONS EXPOSED AT ALL - 11/12/07
    We're talking about the T-Mobile Shadow, right? You see that there are 6 buttons, a D-pad, and scroll wheel on the front, two buttons on the right side, and volume control buttons on the left side; all accessible while the slider is closed. Initially I had shut off the locking feature on my Shadow (it is optional), but then I decided to re-enable that feature when it started playing Windows Media music while I was in a movie theater. Furthermore, unlocking can be a one-step process on the Shadow; just open the slider! Also, any phone that can multi-task should have a task manager. How else would you be able to tell what applications are currently running?
    Its a vain hope that Pogue loses a little bit of credibility from this exchange, as its clear his reviews are patently biased and not based on any real examination of the hardware and software. However I hope he stays a bit longer and exposes his ignorance even more for the rest of us to see. It should be clear to anyone who is considering a smartphone not to take Pogue's reviews seriously.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 11/14/2007 at 06:02 AM.
  2. #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    There is an old saying which goes "Better be thought a fool than open your mouth and confirm it."

    David Pogue has long been slamming Windows Mobile devices to the New York Times readership, but in his recent review of the T-Mobile Shadow he laid it on so thickly that his bias was completely exposed. This resulted in a minor backlash from other sites that have reviewed the device more favorably, notably Matt Miller's site at the ZDNET Blog. In his 18 item point by point refutation he showed exactly how sloppy Pogue's review was. This kind of rebuttal post is not unusual. What was unusual was David Pogue actually showing up in the ZDNET comments section trying to reinforce his case - and failing pathetically and publicly e.g.



    Its a vain hope that Pogue loses a little bit of credibility from this exchange, as its clear his reviews are patently biased and not based on any real examination of the hardware and software. However I hope he stays a bit longer and exposes his ignorance even more for the rest of us to see. It should be clear to anyone who is considering a smartphone not to take Pogue's reviews seriously.

    Surur
    As Pogue writes:

    But as a reviewer for non-technical people, I don't think you're in the majority. I will take elegance and simplicity over feature-list length every time!
    I'm not surprised that he'd advocate the iPhone over Windows Mobile for his audience, which is non-technical people.
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Its a vain hope that Pogue loses a little bit of credibility from this exchange, as its clear his reviews are patently biased and not based on any real examination of the hardware and software. However I hope he stays a bit longer and exposes his ignorance even more for the rest of us to see. It should be clear to anyone who is considering a smartphone not to take Pogue's reviews seriously.

    Surur
    All reviews are biased on any topic in any field--from academics to smartphones, everyone has preconceived notions of what it should be like.

    I think Pogue's point about writing for a non-technical general audience is correct and people who agree with Pogue go by his advice. Those who don't, don't.

    It's the same with movie critics. Yeah, some say "Critic X is great because he talks about Y in his reviews and he considers Z." but in reality people like a specific movie critic because their tastes in movies happen to align most of the time.

    There's nothing objective about reviewing. The only honest position in reviews is to state your biases in advanced. Even Howard Zinn says that about writing history books.

    He made an error about the 2 button thing, which is pretty trivial, but I agree he should at least spend more time with a device or make a correction. But we all miss things in reviews and always don't get it right--sometimes deadlines are lurking.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  4.    #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by Overthrow View Post
    As Pogue writes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pogue
    But as a reviewer for non-technical people, I don't think you're in the majority. I will take elegance and simplicity over feature-list length every time!
    I'm not surprised that he'd advocate the iPhone over Windows Mobile for his audience, which is non-technical people.
    If he's just going to blindly advocate his favorite iProduct to his audience, whats the point of even reviewing the other devices? The Shadow is probably a simpler device than the iPhone, but from reading Pogue's completely uninformed"review" you would never know.

    Surur
  5.    #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    All reviews are biased on any topic in any field--from academics to smartphones, everyone has preconceived notions of what it should be like.

    I think Pogue's point about writing for a non-technical general audience is correct and people who agree with Pogue go by his advice. Those who don't, don't.

    It's the same with movie critics. Yeah, some say "Critic X is great because he talks about Y in his reviews and he considers Z." but in reality people like a specific movie critic because their tastes in movies happen to align most of the time.

    There's nothing objective about reviewing. The only honest position in reviews is to state your biases in advanced. Even Howard Zinn says that about writing history books.

    He made an error about the 2 button thing, which is pretty trivial, but I agree he should at least spend more time with a device or make a correction. But we all miss things in reviews and always don't get it right--sometimes deadlines are lurking.
    Opinions is one thing. Being completely wrong is another. What if I said a Treo is junk because it only has a 160x160 screen?

    If your opinion is not based on facts its worthless, and you are misleading people.

    Surur
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Its a vain hope that Pogue loses a little bit of credibility from this exchange, as its clear his reviews are patently biased
    Coming from the infamous "iPhone hater extraordinaire" that never touched an iPhone in his life?

    I don't care for Pogue either, honestly, and the whole "no buttons are exposed when the slider is closed" makes him look like an absolute GOOF!

    And I have NEVER purchased a phone because of a review I read in the New York Times, or CNet, only message boards. They are much more detailed, and its easy to decipher whats for you and whats not when you read multiple reviews from different users.
  7.    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattycerts View Post
    Coming from the infamous "iPhone hater extraordinaire" that never touched an iPhone in his life?
    The difference is that I dont review iPhones, and my reviews are not read and respected by millions. I'm sure his slapdash work has cost T-Mobile and HTC hundreds of thousands if not millions in lost revenue. His story even made slashdot.

    And I have NEVER purchased a phone because of a review I read in the New York Times, or CNet, only message boards. They are much more detailed, and its easy to decipher whats for you and whats not when you read multiple reviews from different users.
    I'm sure in this you do not represent the majority. Its much easier to turn somebody of a new purchase than turn them on. After his assassination job you would have to be mad to want a Shadow.
    Last edited by surur; 11/14/2007 at 02:44 PM.
  8. #8  
    pogue is a joke.

    why anyone puts stock in what says baffles me.

    opinion is fine, but get the facts right.

    most "tech reviewers" in the mainstream media are Apple shills anyway.
    Last edited by mikec; 11/15/2007 at 11:49 AM.
  9. #9  
    Meh, more blogger drama that nobody cares.
  10. #10  
    I hate to say it, but I think he's right about the non-technical remark. Many people don't even know all their phones' features!! At least US people.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    The difference is that I dont review iPhones, and my reviews are not read and respected by millions. I'm sure his slapdash work has cost T-Mobile and HTC hundreds of thousands if not millions in lost revenue. His story even made slashdot.



    I'm sure in this you do not represent the majority. Its much easier to turn somebody of a new purchase than turn them on. After his assassination job you would have to be mad to want a Shadow.
    I've bought phones with questionable reviews because I wanted to try them for myself, just to see what would happen(iPhone is one). I seriously hope most people spending their own money can learn to think for themselves, otherwise they are in trouble!!

    People in the store may try out the Shadow anyway. Sometimes when you see a phone in person, your perspective changes, despite what reviews say. I saw a whole lot of bad reviews for the newer line of Sony Ericsson phones, claiming they were cheap feeling. Not necessarily so, IMO.

    Anyway, how many people actually believe Pogue? I have read some of his reviews and I don't necessarily like the way he reviews.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  12. #12  
    I read the review and he just doesn't like WM6, but the phone's design seems OK to him. He's not an ***** for disliking WM6, he's just not a Windows guy.

    BTW, I LOVE WM and have decided to use all WM smartphones for serious business. But some people(like Palm OS and Blackberry users) would say I'M an ***** due to all the steps you still have to go through. And I now have to find launchers(AGAIN) that work on WM6 due to that. But I just think it's a matter of opinion. No one is truly right or wrong.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  13.    #13  
    Phone Diva, you are mising the point. He was complaining about things which were not true. Again, it would be like me complaining about Treo's only having 160x160 screens. That's not a matter of opinion, its just plain wrong.

    Surur
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    The difference is that I dont review iPhones, and my reviews are not read and respected by millions.
    well, you're right about not being respected by millions.


    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    I'm sure in this you do not represent the majority. Its much easier to turn somebody of a new purchase than turn them on. After his assassination job you would have to be mad to want a Shadow.
    i'm with Pattycerts; i've never gone out and bought a phone device because of what Mossberg said or didn't say, or any review for that matter. i like to try them out for myself and then decide if it's the right device for me.
    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
  15. #15  
    I think we're all missing the REALLY important question here, people: How did these moderately informed english majors get these jobs!?! I want all this cool stuff for free too!
    OH-IO!!!
    Current Record: 1-2 in BCS Championships Current Rank: #5
    Next Game: 8/30 - Youngstown State

    Formerly "Tre-i-e-i-o"
    Former Treo owner (iPhone 3G baby!)
  16. #16  
    maybe no one else wanted the job?
    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
  17.    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by oalvarez View Post
    i'm with Pattycerts; i've never gone out and bought a phone device because of what Mossberg said or didn't say, or any review for that matter. i like to try them out for myself and then decide if it's the right device for me.
    The very fact that you are on a cellphone website sets you rather apart from the masses. If I read a horrible review by a respected journalist about a car I had a passing interest in I would not waste my time giving it a test drive though. I would just move on to the next product which wasn't supposedly junk.

    Isn't that the whole point of these review - getting advice from supposed experts so you wont have to do it yourself?

    Surur
  18. #18  
    bingo...we are not the masses

    anyone working for the mainstream press should at least get the facts right.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post

    Isn't that the whole point of these review - getting advice from supposed experts so you wont have to do it yourself?

    Surur
    that's where you go wrong (i think). they're not all "experts."
    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
  20.    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by oalvarez View Post
    that's where you go wrong (i think). they're not all "experts."
    For phones I know that, but I dont for washing machines, cars, vacuum cleaners, mortgage providers, HD TV's and millions of other products who's message boards I dont read, but who I need to make decisions about.

    If I read an article in my daily rag saying Dyson vacuum cleaners have a 50% 1 year breakdown rate, I'm going to believe them. I'm not going to go on the internet and research how the columnist has always been biased to Hoover.

    Surur
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