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  1. #21  
    bblue,

    In all your infinite faith that Palm is actually doing everything right, taking the correct course of action, and everthing is fine and dandy.
    How do you explain this:
    http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=1941

    http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/cn/2001...ts_deal_1.html


    "Palm Announces Severe Revenue Shortfall, Big Loss"

    "Palm Inc. said today that it expects revenue for its current financial quarter to be roughly half what it had previously expected. The company estimates revenue will be between $140 and $160 million, compared to its previous estimation of $300 to $315 million. This means the company is now expecting to lose between $170 and $190 million this quarter, compared to the $80 to $85 million it had previously thought. Inventory problems also mean Palm will take a $300 million charge.

    This announcement came after the major markets had closed. Shares fell to an all-time low of $5.47 on very heavy volume in after-hours trading."
    Palm did report positive sale of the new m500 series...but that decrease in revenue, and the huge loss can't be good.

    Palm also loss the acquistion deal with Extended Systems. Wasn't Extended Systems' mobile infrastructure what Palm plan their wireless features on?

    Dark times for Palm .

    Still think that Palm is heading in the right direction, bblue?
    Last edited by Fat_Man; 05/18/2001 at 01:34 AM.
    Fat's
  2.    #22  
    They had trouble with shipping.

    T1HS ON
    (Hold up a mirror to your compy screen and look at it through the mirror)


    Still think Palm's great!
    <b><font size=1 color=teal>"Sorry about the whole thing about losing your life savings, but that Palmpilot is property of Enron, so please give it back"
  3. #23  
    Originally posted by bblue
    They had trouble with shipping.
    They had trouble with more than shipping. They've had trouble with leaks, whether orchestrated or not, that caused their shipping problems. Palm seems to lack a long-range view of things occasionally. In the middle of a slump, they allow a leak that causes their current inventory to sit stagnant while there are delays on their new stuff. With investors so touchy these days, this was a dumb move.

    Maybe from now on you should call yourself a "certified troller."

    And while we go after BB for having blind faith that we'll see SD accessories in the future, once again we should remember that there was a time when the springboard wasn't supported yet either. However, there's a difference between the two, and that's potential. The reason there aren't any SD modules yet is that it's too early. Fine. But in the coming years, I think that SB is better off than SD because of the form issue.

    Yes, Edge vs. M500 you get a reduction in form factor with non-memory add-ons. I personally would feel more comfortable with extra bulk on a device that is designed to carry extra bulk as necessary--the Edge.
  4. #24  
    Originally posted by bblue
    Are you kidding me? The Edge, while not a CLONE of the V series, there's almost no contest over who Handspring used as their benchmark.
    If Handspring used _anything_ to clone to get the look for the Edge, it was a Titanium Powerbook, and not the Palm.

    Next, Springboard modules have one fatal flaw= size. This is a benefit in some ways because of sturdiness.
    If it's a benefit in _any_ way, then it can't be a flaw as well. Again, the SDIO modules are pure vapor at this point, and no judgements can be made about them yet, other than the size of the SD slot will practically _require_ most of them to have warts. Any advancements in technology which would allow them to be made smaller would also apply to the Springboards, so this isn't an advantage for Palm by any sane standard, Shirley.

    <inane screen ramblings snipped>

    Especially with the EDGE. If you want to use your current Springboard cards, you have to use that bulky adaptor, which hurts the form factor.
    Unless some enterprising soul decides to work on a smaller adapter. Besides, your argument on this point is still moot, because _no_ slim PDA has such a solution that won't hurt the form factor yet.

    Stuff will be availible soon, but I'm still questioning it.
    Then maybe you shouldn't be shooting your mouth off yet?

    The Springboard is also NonStandard technology, meaning, it's good only on your Visor.
    Hint: There is _no_ standard yet. Palm might think that their market clout will help SDIO become a standard, but Palm's recent news hasn't been looking good WRT them keeping their market clout.

    While I doubt SD & MMC will be as popular as CF and SMC, they can be used in other devices. (Hell, even some Springboard modules!) (MiniJam)
    Exactly why the Springboard is a better solution. It can adapt to encompass the other solutions. Only a fool or a liar would claim that this is a mark against it.

    One handheld? The M505. Read on.

    The modules won't hurt the Form factor... they're too small!
    No modules _exist_ yet. You cannot by any sane standard make that assertion. The only things that exist are _mockups_ which suggest what they _might_ look like. For any significant application (PalmPix), they've had to use the 'universal connector' and a sled which blows the form factor to hell.

    Sure, they may protrude slightly, but they're small enough to go unnoticed. And judging by the actual size of the mock-ups, they'd be the smallest of their type.
    "Judging by the 'actual size' of the _mock-ups_"?!? Hint2: They're _mockups_. There is no 'actual size'. The SDIO standards haven't even been fully fleshed out yet, so there's no way to know what size the modules will have to be.

    And next, I know this: THERE IS SUPPORT FOR .GIF .JPG .MP3 files in either OS 4.0 or OS 5.0 .
    PalmOS 5.0 is only on the drawing board right now. Until it's released, you have no idea what it will or won't include.

    (Although, I'm almost positive this is for OS 4.0) This does not mean it can play Mp3's directly,
    Clue: If it can't play them, then it doesn't have support for the files, does it? Clue2: Just because you can see them on the MMC card doesn't mean that they're supported. If it does, then the Visors have support for them too (which is actually more accurate since a memplug will let you view jpgs stored on SMCs, and the minijam will play MP3s on an MMC).

    but it probably allows the smaller size of many of the SD modules, and more integration between the hardware down the line. I'm not sure how Palm is approaching this, like I mentioned earlier, but I do know they HAVE done something with it.
    Again, don't you think you should know these details before you try and claim that you're correct in your assertions?

    I'll find the article. But the point still stands.
    Only in the fantasy world where you're a 'certified genius'.

    Neeexxxtt!
    Clue3: This attitude is precisely why I was less than forgiving of some of your ridiculous assertions.
    Last edited by Toby; 05/18/2001 at 09:05 AM.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  5. #25  
    Originally posted by bblue
    I am a "certified genius" do not argue with thou! j/k
    Correct, you really shouldn't be arguing with others.

    While I haven't actually seen the actual FINISHED modules yet, you must also (**** dickson) realize that these modules have limited size capacity. If they're too large, they could become overly topheavy and snap off. So size IS a major concern. But I guess some clever developers have found out how to fit stuff in there!
    Name one. Please.

    2) I'm not THAT stupid.
    You sure could have fooled me.

    Just to name a few. Granted, you'll go on nitpicking about how these are only a few companies supporting the technology, but that's not too shabby for a technology not even standardized yet.
    Hint: SD _memory_ is standardized. SDIO is not. None of those cards or devices are SDIO peripherals.

    http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=1697 . It's close enough, so can you nitpick about THIS part somewhere else?
    No, it's nowhere _near_ the same thing. Are you just trolling, or are you really this stupid?

    Finally, to keep things cool, can we turn down the stupidity in here?
    Hmmm...I think if everyone put you in their ignore list, that'd fix it up.

    I'm sorry, but it gets tedious!
    Yes, when someone is as blatantly wrong as you are and doesn't admit it, it gets tedious.

    But at least I'm backing it up
    No, you're not.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6. #26  
    Normally, I consider myself an adventurous early adopter. So I really tried to buy the first/only m505 @Staples but BESIDES the intial look at it-vvveeerry dim,angle,angle,tilt,tilt, forget it-
    I have to admit my maturity spoke to me(I hate when that happens).
    I am now dependant on 'a' pda,
    I MUST have a keyboard(means no travel laptop)
    I MUST have a modem(I sync when I travel)

    I just couldn't wait. Maybe if they were out,it would've have turned my mind from Prism to m505...
    As an early adopter, I can deal with Issues(dim screen)if there's compelling Newness (form w/color)

    too bad, I didn't know I was hooked on the stuff until I had to face giving it up...

    Hi, my name is Gina...and I'm a visorholic.
  7. #27  
    Originally posted by bblue
    They had trouble with shipping.
    Palm is losing $170 to $190 million simply because of shipping problems? Are you kidding me?!?!

    Palm is having way more problems than just "shipping"!!

    Their m500 series is going to bomb. Beside the screen dissatisfation, there appears to be quality control problems and variations in screen brightness between units made in the US and Hungary. Palm is going to be hit if another inventory back-up of Hungary units. There have been reports of dust under the screens like the iPAQ. Also, their deal with Extended Systems is off. Palm was going to use Extended Systems infrastructure to push their wireless connectivity package. Have you seen their stock value?

    I think it's more than shipping. Palm is in serious problem and they caused it.
    Fat's
  8. #28  
    Originally posted by acraniotes
    Now if everybody could take a cue from Gameboy70's comments regarding my previous post, I think we'd all get along a lot better around here. He stated clearly, and without venom his reasons for not liking the m505, as well as his rationalization for purchasing the Clie (whereas I questioned such a purchase due to the capabilities of my iPAQ).
    Actually, I purchased a Prism. But I said if the choice was between the m505 and the Clié, I purchase the latter.

    Gameboy, I agree that my faith in SDIOs is quite possibly misguided, but hope springs eternal in the human heart. Why can't they stick an mp3 player or digital camera on on an SD card? Sony has managed to create a digital camera MemoryStick (it's a prototype, but it's functional).
    I have no doubt that an MP3 player or digital camera can be shoehorned into an SD slot; I'm skeptical of the cost/benefit ratio. One only has to look at how much more expensive Springboard modules were than anticipated as a harbinger for what to expect with SDIOs. For every I/O card that makes it to market, I think we're going to see a lot of SixPak debacles. Most third parties don't have the R&D budget of Sony. Kodak PalmPix is the more likely direction for I/O expansion on the 505. It's just easier to get a new product out to market that connects to the cradle port and sticks on the back. It's not chic, but Kodak made the smart move. Other companies will learn the hard way.

    As far as perferring the PalmOS - I, for one, don't. I also do not prefer PocketPC. I just happen to love PDAs, and find that each OS has it's own particular advantages and disadvantages. Presently, I'm using my m505 over the iPAQ due to its considerable size advangtage (now that it's warmer out, I don't have a jacket on all the time with a pocket large enough to stick the bugger in).
    I came from a Newton 110 to a Palm III to a VDX to a Prism. What I've learned from the first transition is that the most important thing in a PDA for me is that I like the UI. Every time I see a new PPC in a store, I try it out, and my gut reaction is always the same: I don't like the interface, and all the features in the world won't distract me from that. I owned a Newton for two years and almost never used it, although I didn't know why, since I always liked the concept of a PDA. The first night I brought home a Palm III (which I tried out alongside a Casio PalmPC of some kind), all my reservations about PDAs vanished, mainly because the usage model of the interface was so well thought out. I keep hoping that MS refines the UI to the point where I can use it, but that hasn't happened yet.

    As far as size, you're right: the m50x wins hands down. But at this point, I'd have to think twice about spending $450 for an m505 instead of Palm's current offer of $348 for a Vx and Stowaway (after $50 rebate).

    And one last word on the screen. From what I understand, Hungary-made units should be avoided like the plague. I happen to own a US-made m505, and have read that the screens are brighter, and have better contrast than their Eurotrash cousins.
    The difference between the US and Hungary units has been debated on The Gadgeteer's discussion page for the m505 review, and it looks like the majority of posters who've actually compared the units find no difference. But until we get a definitive answer, it looks like the smart thing to do in this case is buy American.
  9. #29  
    True, for $450 one can reasonably expect more of the m505, but then I've never applied reason to my PDA purchases. Do I wish the screen was brighter? Not if it meant that I couldn't adjust it and had to pay a price in battery life. Do I wish it was adjustable - you bet. Why Palm didn't think of that is beyond me, and they're paying the price for this misstep now. I have little doubt that 1 in 3 m505s they sell are being returned because of consumer dissatisfaction with the screen. Couple this with their current inventory and stock price woes (it's hovering a bit over $4/share right now), and it doesn't take a "genius" to see that they're headed for rocky shores. Unfortunately, these events are probably going to have a negative effect on SDIO development. You're right to say that most third-party companies lack the R&D budgets to develop this type of hardware - now it looks as though Palm is going to have enought trouble staying in business, let alone develop exciting and compelling SDIOs.

    Still, I like it.

    -Adam
  10. #30  
    Originally posted by acraniotes
    You're right to say that most third-party companies lack the R&D budgets to develop this type of hardware - now it looks as though Palm is going to have enought trouble staying in business, let alone develop exciting and compelling SDIOs.
    Yet another reason that SB has the edge: committed developers. While it may be true that HS probably isn't in the greatest financial shape, I get the feeling that there's a little more stability. Both Palm and HS have played the "lower expectations" game. Looks like Palm didn't lower them enough. I'm thinking that HS did.

    So instead of exciting, rapidly growing super companies, we get one that's possibly on the rocks (palm) and one that may be ho-hum for awhile (HS). Yes, the SD slot is cool & doesn't increase form factor, but you can't do all that much with it beyond memory. Would you rather buy the Celica? Get the M505. Prefer a BMW? Get a Prism or a Clie. Me, I've got a 4 banger Mazda 626 (VDX), it does the job and will last a long time.

    Guess there comes a point where you have to admit that the sedan is better than the sports car!
  11.    #31  
    Well, I gotta admit this, I'm pretty impressed to see one of MY posts having flames after just a few days on VC!

    I don't have time, like I said earlier, to spend the rest of the day fighting each of your arguements. Instead, I will offer some personalized advice to answering your quesitons.

    1) To all- Ever since I've had an interest in getting my prototype Springboard module a chance (long before I posted it here) I have talked to several developers working on the Palm SD slot. I know little about the marketing of the product the developer has chosen. Thus, I strongly sugguest that before a post is put on here, that you actually go out from the opposing side of your arguement, and actually search in depth. The links I gave you alone were found in less than 3 minutes while typing the post. I am quite sure there are many more.

    2) To Toby:
    * Stop the flames, please. Products & Companies are fair game, but people I try to stay away from. (and usually I'm just kidding)
    * Ok, most of the arguements in your last reply lacked some facts. (Some didn't, I stand corrected, although my point still stands!)
    * I sugguest you talk to some SD developers. It might help you prove me wrong.

    The same for Dicksy.

    Why I am having you research this on your own is because of basically what I have had in replies. I've had some actual good replies, but most of this is just cleverly worded platitudes mixed in with skepticism for a personal attack. Although done quite well, it's turning into a flame war. You need some facts, people! All I've heard is "you can't do this" and "it's impossible to do that" or "just because you gave me the link to the company site / or / linked to an article that basically said the same thing you're full of T1HS!" Some of the stuff I think needs a correction on my behalf, but now such that I take back my point. And some of these issues you need to take up with Palm, personally.

    Once again, that's not saying that that's all that has been said, several good points have been made against my arguement.
    <b><font size=1 color=teal>"Sorry about the whole thing about losing your life savings, but that Palmpilot is property of Enron, so please give it back"
  12. #32  
    Originally posted by bblue
    Once again, that's not saying that that's all that has been said, several good points have been made against my arguement.
    Ok, so which points do you give up and which do you maintain?
  13.    #33  
    I'm taking away that it supports .mp3 s, because this is something that I am not quite sure myself how Palm integrated it on a handheld that cannot play it by itself. Nobody else even bothered to check it out, only to criticize it, so it remains a fact only on PalmInfocenter.com , in whatever way it exists.

    I am still sticking to everything else. The standard media type. (I hate secure digital though, so I hope all of the good stuff comes on MMC cards!) The Form Factor. The Upgrade-ability. The color screen which I find more than acceptable. (US models only. I thought the Hungarian ones were pathetic!) And everything else. Everything else has only been fought with Pessimism. We'll see a year and a half from now if Palm keeps its promise. So far, the more I research it, the more I find in support of it.
    <b><font size=1 color=teal>"Sorry about the whole thing about losing your life savings, but that Palmpilot is property of Enron, so please give it back"
  14. #34  
    Originally posted by bblue
    I'm taking away that it supports .mp3 s
    Good
    I am still sticking to everything else. <snip> The Form Factor.
    Yep. Palm's got it. Nobody argues that.
    The Upgrade-ability.
    Nope. We've substantially argued to the contrary, namely:
    Originally posted by toby
    If it's a benefit in _any_ way, then it can't be a flaw as well. Again, the SDIO modules are pure vapor at this point, and no judgements can be made about them yet, other than the size of the SD slot will practically _require_ most of them to have warts. Any advancements in technology which would allow them to be made smaller would also apply to the Springboards, so this isn't an advantage for Palm by any sane standard, Shirley.
    So drop that or show us exactly how you're going to have accessories that use the SD slot successfully without sacrificing form.
    The color screen which I find more than acceptable.
    Again, this has been beaten to death: the M505 screen is a personal choice, you have to at least admit that it is substandard to a significant portion of users, and that this is bad for palm.
    And everything else.
    Which was? Can you please be more specific?
    Everything else has only been fought with Pessimism.
    Actually, no, we've put forth meaningful commentary on your assertions, you simply choose to focus on the method of delivery rather than the package.
    We'll see a year and a half from now if Palm keeps its promise. So far, the more I research it, the more I find in support of it.
    Yes, we will, but the point here is that Palm may be kerplunkt in a year and a half. Even if they aren't (and I don't think they will be), the industry will have changed quite a bit. It seems to be that the springboard standard (and it is a standard) is better poised to grab market than the SD slot.
  15. #35  
    Originally posted by bblue
    Well, I gotta admit this, I'm pretty impressed to see one of MY posts having flames after just a few days on VC!
    I'm beginning to smell a troll.

    I don't have time, like I said earlier, to spend the rest of the day fighting each of your arguements.
    If you don't have the time to defend your assertions, then you shouldn't make them.

    Instead, I will offer some personalized advice to answering your quesitons.
    Save it. You're even less qualified for this than you were making your original 'argument'.

    1) To all- Ever since I've had an interest in getting my prototype Springboard module a chance (long before I posted it here) I have talked to several developers working on the Palm SD slot. I know little about the marketing of the product the developer has chosen. Thus, I strongly sugguest that before a post is put on here, that you actually go out from the opposing side of your arguement, and actually search in depth. The links I gave you alone were found in less than 3 minutes while typing the post. I am quite sure there are many more.
    The number of developers you claim to have spoken to is irrelevant unless you cite specific examples which support your position. You have done none of this. The burden of proof lies with the one making the assertions.

    2) To Toby:
    * Stop the flames, please. Products & Companies are fair game, but people I try to stay away from. (and usually I'm just kidding)
    Any flames you received were fully justified and deserved. You make ridiculous claims, based on fantasy bound in attitude, and want to claim them as fact.

    * Ok, most of the arguements in your last reply lacked some facts. (Some didn't, I stand corrected, although my point still stands!)
    None of your points stand unless they have support provided for them.

    * I sugguest you talk to some SD developers. It might help you prove me wrong.
    There is no need to prove you wrong. You have not proven yourself right until you provide proof from these mythical SD developers with which you claim to have spoken.

    Why I am having you research this on your own is because of basically what I have had in replies. I've had some actual good replies, but most of this is just cleverly worded platitudes mixed in with skepticism for a personal attack.
    Oh please, Mr. 'certified genius'. You lack evidence and you lack logic, therefore you lack.

    Although done quite well, it's turning into a flame war.
    Because of statements like...

    You need some facts, people!
    No. _You_ need some facts. Provide some, and your arguments would be better received.

    All I've heard is "you can't do this" and "it's impossible to do that" or "just because you gave me the link to the company site / or / linked to an article that basically said the same thing you're full of T1HS!" Some of the stuff I think needs a correction on my behalf, but now such that I take back my point. And some of these issues you need to take up with Palm, personally.
    Nope. Palm didn't post anything to this site. You did.

    Once again, that's not saying that that's all that has been said, several good points have been made against my arguement.
    You have no valid argument in the first place.
    Last edited by Toby; 05/18/2001 at 03:52 PM.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  16. #36  
    I actually think that SD modules might not affect the form factor too badly. I took my Good technology player and put it up against the 505 and if you look on the back of a 505 you'll clearly see two hinges which I bet modules will lock into. Who wants to bet that Good Technology will make a version of their AudioPlayer that has an SD connector a top. The question is can the 505 battery last as long as my Prism does playeing MP3s.

    Anyway, the M505 and this module would still be slimmer than my Prism and maybe even the Clie.
    -Mikedemo
    It's all about how you spend the money.
  17. #37  
    Originally posted by mikedemo
    Who wants to bet that Good Technology will make a version of their AudioPlayer that has an SD connector a top
    Not me. More likely they'll use the universal connector. Less hassle with the connection, less likely to snap off. With the connector there, the only thing I think will use the sd slot is a modem.
  18. #38  
    Originally posted by bblue
    I'm taking away that it supports .mp3 s, because this is something that I am not quite sure myself how Palm integrated it on a handheld that cannot play it by itself. Nobody else even bothered to check it out, only to criticize it, so it remains a fact only on PalmInfocenter.com , in whatever way it exists.
    Learn to read. I addressed the PalmInfoCenter.com article which you posted. The _desktop_ software supports the file formats in that it can sync them with files created by peripherals that support them (like the PalmPix) or straight to the SD/MMC cards. This is not an advantage for Palm since Springboard developers did it before Palm with modules like the Minijam and Memplug.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  19.    #39  
    I'll be updating the original post on this !soon! with some of the proof you guys have been requesting!

    I won't be posting some of the changed information in replies, to better prevent this from becoming a flame war. I would delete this entire thread, except that I'm sticking to my original theory.

    Oh yes, everything else can be found on the first post.



    And please note,
    I try and post here as often as I can, however simply because I don't have the time to provide links to 20 sites for each individual does NOT mean I cannot back up what I say. It means I don't have time! It's not a hard deduction! ( I know who is gonna comment on this, and why, so don't bother.) I will get them to you though, since I know that some people cannot actually find something else out on their own!
    <b><font size=1 color=teal>"Sorry about the whole thing about losing your life savings, but that Palmpilot is property of Enron, so please give it back"
  20. #40  
    Originally posted by bblue
    And please note,
    I try and post here as often as I can, however simply because I don't have the time to provide links to 20 sites for each individual does NOT mean I cannot back up what I say. It means I don't have time! It's not a hard deduction! ( I know who is gonna comment on this, and why, so don't bother.) I will get them to you though, since I know that some people cannot actually find something else out on their own!
    It's been said before, but I'd love to say it again. Posting a bunch of crap w/o any info to back it up (and I'm sorry, but they "proof" you've offered has little, if anything, to do with your assertions) is not going to impress me (or anyone here, for that matter). Your "I don't have the time to proove anything I say" mantra is asinine. Idiots have been posting insider information for as long as I've been here. To anyone taking "genius" here at his word: I have some land I'll sell you real cheap. I can't be bothered to proove that the land actually exists, but I'm sure if you look hard enough you can find your own proof. I only accept cash.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
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