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  1.    #1  
    So far, the battery life on my 505 is excellent! But I'm not even using the backlight at all. I find the display to be fairly credible w/o backlight support, and nice and bright with it on. It has been noted by numerous users that the general quality and brightness of the M505 seems to vary between units that are manufactured in Hungary or the USA. I have the USA assembled model, and this unit seems to be considerably better than the original unit I looked at in Office Depot.

    The fit and finish is top notch. Palm did an excellent job, and this is, by far, the most solid and rugged device Palm has built to date. No creaking, flexing, bending, loose buttons. Nothing. It is tight.

    But there are a couple things that bother me. For one thing, I found one dead pixel (not a big deal), but what really has me concerned is that I also discovered a very tiny dust particle on far left side of the screen. This takes me back to my days as an iPaq user, which had (and still does) a serious problem with collecting dust under the display. I really hope this doesn't occur on the M505, but it has me a little worried. In fact, I'm afraid to carry the unit around in my pocket. I learned the hard way that your pocket is the wrong place to carry an iPaq, even though it is a "Pocket" PC.

    Aside from that, the unit is great. The thing that really gets on my nerves is that damn cradle. Whomever designed the cradle latch at Palm, should be drug out into the street and shot! Seating the 505 in its cradle can be tedious, but removing it is worse! You almost think your going to break the stupid thing because it will not let go.
    Last edited by foo fighter; 05/17/2001 at 12:27 PM.
  2. #2  
    I will agree with you about the stiffiness. Both the 500 and 505 feel like they were cut out of a single block of metal. I look forward to the technology allowing for an active matrix display in that same package.
    "That IS a Palm III form-factor in my pocket, AND I'm happy to see you...."
  3. #3  
    Originally posted by foo fighter
    . . . The thing that really gets on my nerves is that damn cradle. Whomever designed the cradle latch at Palm, should be drug out into the street and shot!
    Nah, don't drug him. I want him fully aware of why he's getting shot.

    Foo,

    where are you using your 505 without the side light? I have to tilt this dam thing at an angle just it to see it well indoors. And don't tell me I'm crazy cause I've seen many reviewers say the same thing. And subtle colors are lost to muddiness, for instance the teal color in the Avantgo logo, on my Prism and my computer screen it looks teal but on the M505 it looks gray. and the side light didn't help.

    !!!Palm patch the damn OS now and put contrast and brightness control!!!

    I do have some praise
    The form factor is what I love most about the thing and SD technology is cool too. Got a 64 MB SD card and I recently synched an 8MB video clip directly on it. whew . . . now I'll see less "Out of memory errors" when I sync.
    Last edited by mikedemo; 05/17/2001 at 02:20 PM.
    -Mikedemo
    It's all about how you spend the money.
  4. #4  
    When I got to test one out, I found the exact same thing! Just find a nice constant light source (desk lamps, etc. work the best!)


    Maybe now that the US models are coming out in larger numbers, I think you'll be finding more people satisfied with the M505. I also think it's pretty cool Palm assembles its products (well, most of em) here in the states!

    But for $449.00 , I would take it back and exchange it for one without a dead pixel. It would annoy the hell outta me!

    Oh well, nice to see someone pleased with their M505!

    Oh yes, I never got to use the cradle (just the unit, thus the M505 never HotSynced with my 'puter) is it like the HandSpring one that clips the back of the Visor?
    <b><font size=1 color=teal>"Sorry about the whole thing about losing your life savings, but that Palmpilot is property of Enron, so please give it back"
  5.    #5  
    Originally posted by mikedemo
    where are you using your 505 without the side light? I have to tilt this dam thing at an angle just it to see it well indoors. And don't tell me I'm crazy cause I've seen many reviewers say the same thing.
    No, your not crazy. The display is relatively dark. But under good lighting conditions it is useable. I've only felt compelled to use the backlight on a couple of occasions (where light was poor), but for the most part. Its okay, as in fair. I'm more worried about seeing stars whenever I toggle the backlight.

    The M505 isn't a killer PDA, but it is practical. And for the price I paid ($406 after tax), it was worth it for me. But keep in mind, your talking to a guy who has been without a PDA for over 6 weeks. Right now, even a block of wood with knobs would seem impressive! I'm just happy to have a PDA at all.
  6.    #6  
    Originally posted by mikedemo
    And subtle colors are lost to muddiness, for instance the teal color in the Avantgo logo, on my Prism and my computer screen it looks teal but on the M505 it looks gray. and the side light didn't help!
    Color clarity seems to depend of which color is being displayed. The dark greens do resemble grays, but reds, yellows, oranges, and most shades of blue all seem to render alright. But it's by no means exciting. The display in the M505 is identical to the Compaq Aero 2100 series, which was also criticized for being too dim. I owned an Aero back in 99 fro several months and never once had so much as a spec of dust under the screen. It baffles me that after two and a half years, reflective LCD technology has somehow gotten worse! Is it that hard to seal an LCD?
  7. Rob
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    #7  
    Originally posted by foo fighter
    But keep in mind, your talking to a guy who has been without a PDA for over 6 weeks. Right now, even a block of wood with knobs would seem impressive!
    It's funny you mention that, because I just received my patent (#661234018431) from the U.S. Patent Office, giving me full rights over any "hand-held block or box made of wood or other natural materials, made to resemble a PDA, mobile phone, pager, or other electronic device," so don't even think about it!!!
  8. #8  
    Originally posted by Rob
    It's funny you mention that, because I just received my patent (#661234018431) from the U.S. Patent Office, giving me full rights over any "hand-held block or box made of wood or other natural materials, made to resemble a PDA, mobile phone, pager, or other electronic device," so don't even think about it!!!
    Bah. Prior art. Jeff Hawkins was quite well known to have done this while in the process of thinking up the original Palm. I darn you to Heck.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  9. #9  
    Does this mean, that you aren't a visor user anymore?!?!
    -Michael Ducker
    TreoCentral Staff
  10. Rob
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    #10  
    Originally posted by Toby


    Bah. Prior art. Jeff Hawkins was quite well known to have done this while in the process of thinking up the original Palm. I darn you to Heck.
    I just got off the phone with the Patent Officer in charge of my case. He says, and I quote, "prior what?!?"
  11. #11  
    Originally posted by foo fighter
    So far, the battery life on my 505 is excellent! But I'm not even using the backlight at all. I find the display to be fairly credible w/o backlight support....
    Someone did a batt. test w/ & w/out bk lite this wk on another board, and got a whopping 16 or 18 hrs. or something of continuous life out of the M505.
    "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds." -- Albert Einstein
  12. #12  
    Originally posted by bkbk

    Someone did a batt. test w/ & w/out bk lite this wk on another board, and got a whopping 16 or 18 hrs. or something of continuous life out of the M505.
    Rob has posted those results here:
    http://discussion.visorcentral.com/v...threadid=15082

    The m505 got 15:45 without side-light and 7:00 with side-light.

    Comparatively, the Clie got 16:25 without side-light and 5:50 with side-light on MAX. Apparently the clie's side-light is adjustable.

    So in battery life, the Clie has the advantage. Although, not sure about charge time.
    Fat's
  13. #13  
    Originally posted by Rob
    I just got off the phone with the Patent Officer in charge of my case. He says, and I quote, "prior what?!?"
    I'll bet he's the one that does patent reissues on fish finders.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  14. #14  
    Originally posted by foo fighter
    It baffles me that after two and a half years, reflective LCD technology has somehow gotten worse! Is it that hard to seal an LCD?
    Foo-

    Do you know more about LCDs? Seems to me that this is prob. the biggest issue for the Palm Platform in the near future. I wonder if any company has tried to get a third party developer to develop a color screen for them. Handspring and Samsung would make a great combo, IMHO.

    It also seems to me that if HS can get a better (than m505) color screen out in the Edge's form factor, they'll start whaling on Palm... maybe even enough for Palm to start walking down that non-hardware road they've been talking about. Thing is, I haven't the foggiest as to whether or not that's even an option. What's more likely: A Prism screen in the Edge form or Repulsorlifts?
  15.    #15  
    Originally posted by dietrichbohn
    I wonder if any company has tried to get a third party developer to develop a color screen for them. Handspring and Samsung would make a great combo, IMHO.
    I'm not sure what you mean, but no PDA company develops their own LCDs. They are all produced by display manufactures. For example, SONY produces displays for the iPaq, Epson makes displays for the Palm V, Samsung is producing displays for the M500, and SHARP built displays for the old Compaq Aero 2100. I don't know who makes the M505's display.

    ...maybe even enough for Palm to start walking down that non-hardware road they've been talking about.
    Given the current financial condition that Palm is in, I would say your never going to see that happen. In fact, I expect Palm to begin pulling the plug on its licensees. Right now, Palm is faced with the exact same problem Apple faced at the hands of Motorola and UMAX. As these companies began eroding Apples share of the hardware market, they were forced to cut off their licensees to survive. I'm getting some bad vibes here, and I think the axe is going to fall on HS. Hawkins may not have been kidding when he mentioned using "other" Operating systems.
  16. #16  
    Originally posted by foo fighter
    Given the current financial condition that Palm is in, I would say your never going to see that happen. In fact, I expect Palm to begin pulling the plug on its licensees. [...]
    That would be a truly stupid move tantamount to Apple's original decision not to license their OS, IMO. The main reason I own a PalmOS device is Handspring's expansion technology. Plus I can't see how the fallout from lawsuits for violating its license agreements would make Palm _more_ attractive to the investment community.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17. #17  
    Originally posted by foo fighter
    Given the current financial condition that Palm is in, I would say your never going to see that happen. In fact, I expect Palm to begin pulling the plug on its licensees. Right now, Palm is faced with the exact same problem Apple faced at the hands of Motorola and UMAX. As these companies began eroding Apples share of the hardware market, they were forced to cut off their licensees to survive. I'm getting some bad vibes here, and I think the axe is going to fall on HS. Hawkins may not have been kidding when he mentioned using "other" Operating systems.
    That's been the single biggest reservation I've had about the Visor line from day one, especially when the details of the licensing agreement weren't made public. But at least we know that Handspring's license is good for seven years.

    900 posts!
  18.    #18  
    Originally posted by Toby
    That would be a truly stupid move tantamount to Apple's original decision not to license their OS, IMO.
    It may seem like a stupid move, but that decision also saved Apple. 95% of Palm's revenue comes from hardware sales. Palm simply can't survive on the low margins it generates from licensing. They only make $7.50 from Handspring alone. Can they survive on those numbers, let alone grow? This is why I always shake my head at people who continue to believe that Palm is (or will be) the Microsoft of mobile devices. Nope, it aint gonna happen! Microsoft has always been a software developer that built its business model on selling software. Palm was a hardware developer that must somehow find a way to shift to selling software. It didn't work for Apple, and I don't see how it will work for Palm, especially given the incredibly razor thin margins on mobile software. It's easy for MS to make tons of money of $90 Windows upgrade sales and $250 Office bundles, but an entirely different scenario where a company sells its OS for $7.50. And, let's face it, PDAs still have not reached the broad scope of acceptance that cell phones have established. The only way Palm could ever truly switch to being an OS company, and become highly profitable in the process, the PDA market would have to grow from a several million unit industry (which it is now)...to a several hundred million unit industry. That may yet happen, but that's not going to save Palm from the hot seat right now.

    But I'm not worried in the least about the Palm platform's future prospects. Palm is going to be around for a long time, either independently, or as a division within another company (SONY could acquire them). As long as I can choose a platform that doesn't wear the "Windows Powered" logo, I'll be happy.
    Last edited by foo fighter; 05/18/2001 at 01:50 PM.
  19. #19  
    Originally posted by foo fighter
    It may seem like a stupid move, but that decision also saved Apple.
    Some might argue that an investment from Microsoft had something to do with it, also.

    95% of Palm's revenue comes from hardware sales.
    Sure, and how much of its expenses come from hardware sales?

    Palm simply can't survive on the low margins it generates from licensing.
    What kind of margins is it making from hardware? If they're having trouble moving inventory, it can't be that great.

    They only make $7.50 from Handspring alone.
    Per unit. For doing practically _nothing_.

    Can they survive on those numbers, let alone grow?
    No way to know. Just like there's no way to know if they can survive on their current numbers and grow, or survive on the numbers and grow if they try to pull the rug out from under their licensees.

    This is why I always shake my head at people who continue to believe that Palm is (or will be) the Microsoft of mobile devices.
    The only reason Palm built hardware in the first place was because no one else wanted to use the OS. The original vision behind Palm _was_ to become a handheld Microsoft.

    Nope, it aint gonna happen! Microsoft has always been a software developer that built its business model on selling software.
    Not necessarily. Microsoft's hardware division had a lot to do with it as well. Mice weren't standard hardware on many systems until MS started pushing theirs (which was to help push its Windows GUI).

    Palm was a hardware developer that must somehow find a way to shift to selling software.
    No. Palm was originally a software developer (their first product was Graffiti) which had to create hardware to push its OS.

    [...] Palm is going to be around for a long time, either independently, or as a division within another company (SONY could acquire them).
    Or they could 'come home' to the Handspring team.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  20.    #20  
    Originally posted by Toby
    Some might argue that an investment from Microsoft had something to do with it, also.
    There is no question that Uncle Bill saved Steve's bacon. But taking over the OS was a catch-22 proposition that hobbled the platform, but saved the company.

    Sure, and how much of its expenses come from hardware sales?
    I'm not sure, but with 97% revenues coming from hardware, and only 2% coming from OS licensing, I've got to believe they're making far more money on mobile devices than they are off of Handspring or SONY. But who knows, maybe Palm can find a way to reverse that. I'm doubtful.

    What kind of margins is it making from hardware? If they're having trouble moving inventory, it can't be that great.
    They're getting 97% of their revenues from hardware, but I don't know how much they take home after costs. As to why they are having trouble moving inventory, that's hard to say. I think its the result of several different things; slowing economy, consumer confidence is down, lack of innovative products, pre-announcing new products long be before they were ready to ship, the price of eggs in China. But I agree with you, the margins can't be that great. In fact, I read an article (can't remember if it was ZDNET or Forbes) that said the overall margins on the new M500 series is far narrower than what they got off of the Palm V series. These new M500 devices could have been a tragic mistake for Palm. It seems, at least to some extent, they were betting the company on heavy volume sales off of the M505. Apparently, Yankowski thought the 505 would take off like the iPaq. I think that's going to cost them big!

    Not necessarily. Microsoft's hardware division had a lot to do with it as well. Mice weren't standard hardware on many systems until MS started pushing theirs (which was to help push its Windows GUI).
    Agreed.

    Or they could 'come home' to the Handspring team.
    I don't see how that would help the situation. Palm needs capitol badly! They're sure not going to get it by merging with Handspring. The only thing that would accomplish is to impress investors. Don't forget, Handspring is still a young but struggling start-up as well. It would be the blind leading the blind for the two to join forces. Palm would be far better off being acquired by SONY or Apple, both of which have far more financial resources, especially SONY. I didn't mention Microsoft, because if they snagged Palm, they would do so simply to kill the platform. Oops! I'd better not give Bill Gates any ideas, someone from MS might be listening!
    Last edited by foo fighter; 05/18/2001 at 03:47 PM.
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