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  1.    #41  
    I have been re-reading my posts from last night, and I would like to apologize if my comments appear to be nit-picking and too critical of Palm.

    You know, I have been thinking about this whole Palm m505 issue tonight. I have to admit that I am disappointed at the m505. I bleive that's the root of my discontent with Palm. I guess my expectations of the m505 have been set too high, and I feel that I have been let down.

    I was really looking forward to the m505 since rumors of it surfaced about 8 months ago (maybe longer?). I had wanted a color Palm handheld for a while, but decided not to get the Prism because of the resolution and grid-lines make reading text difficult.

    Then technical details of the m505 were released, and at the about same time, Sony and HandEra also introduced their handhelds. While, the m505's features were basically borrowed from pre-existing features from Handspring/Sony and re-packaged in a Palm OS 4.0 name, Sony and HandEra made significant improvements and introduced new features on their handhelds:

    Sony Clie:
    1. color 320x320 resolution
    2. built-in MP3/ATRAC
    3. voice recording (I'm still not sure about this?)
    4. built-in multimedia
    5. 4MB of Flash ROM
    6. memory stick expansion
    7. bright beautiful screen(so I've heard)

    HandEra 330
    1. 320x240 resolution
    2. soft graffi area
    3. dual CF and SD slots
    4. new fonts
    5. ability to rotate screen
    6. dual battery options
    7. built-in voice recording and built-in speaker for playback

    So I'm looking at these new features above, and I'm looking at what the m505 is offering:

    Palm m505/m500(Palm OS 4) I have listed before:
    1. 16-bit color (from Handspring)
    2. SD Card (from Sony)
    3. form-factor (from Palm V)
    4. reflective screen (from Sony)
    5. 33mhz processor (1st used by Handspring)
    6. USB hotsych (from Handspring)
    7. vibrating alarm: hey, that's new!!

    Am I the only one thinking that someone dropped the ball?

    Now to add insult to disappointment...here comes complaints from about every m505 reviewer that the color screen in too dim, dull, and milky, and now apparently there are reports that there are noticable screen brightness variability between m505's.

    Come-on Palm!! Why aren't the features of Sony and HandEra not in the m505? Why did the m505 not have 320x320 resolution, soft graffi area, audio recording/palyback, etc? Do you even have a Research and Development department any more?

    I guess that's the root of my disappointment and nickpickiness of the m505 and Palm.

    Whew...it's good to vent...I feel better now.
    Last edited by Fat_Man; 05/16/2001 at 12:02 AM.
    Fat's
  2. #42  
    Originally posted by Fat_Man
    Whew...it's good to vent...I feel better now.
    FM,

    I have been frustrated about the m505 as well, but then I realized that Palm has decided to go after the Pinstripe crowd as their main customer. Think about it. Yes the color sucks. But if you're just Joe CEO, and you have a tee-time with Jim CEO, maybe all you want to do is highlight that appointment in red. The color screen may be second rate, but red is red, and black is black. Joe CEO makes his tee time. Joe CEO thinks:

    "man this color Palm is great!! I'm going to make all the sniveling boot-lickers that work for me buy one too!"
    Ta-da!! The current Palm leadership gets its wish. The palm m-series is not for us. Thank goodness for the CLIE and the HE330. (notice I graciously mentioned the CLIE first!
    )
    "That IS a Palm III form-factor in my pocket, AND I'm happy to see you...."
  3.    #43  
    a good review of HandEra...Very impressive!

    http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/handera330-review.html
    Last edited by Fat_Man; 05/16/2001 at 09:53 AM.
    Fat's
  4. #44  
    Fat_Man you have every right to point out Palm's goof-ups.

    Because of Handspring, Sony, & Handera some great innovations are coming about. You would have thought Palm OS 4.0 devices would at least have better sound capabilities. Gameboy has way better sound and its only what, 60 bucks.

    Palm needs to understand that the audience is maturing as far as their expectations of their PDAs. And I fear that Palm will slow down the compatibles because of the limited innovations in Palm OS 4.0.

    Really think about it. The Clie N710c isn't even gonna have Palm OS 4.0 on it and will still romp all over the Palm M505 in audio and video capabilities. The iPaq is coming down in price and it truly is almost the perfect multimedia PDA. (too bad its running CE which is part of that grand family of products from Microsoft. Windows CE,ME,NT )

    Well, I'm on day two with this 505 and I feel the same about it. Man really neat form factor. It fits in pocket, looks ultra cool, and is lighter than my overstuffed wallet. But the display is not where it ought to be . An iPaq, I saw on the train today was beautiful. The display was crisp and God I am jealous of the screen real estate (another goof on Palm. Still 160x160) that the iPaq has.

    Anybody know when the Clie N710c going to be available?
    Last edited by mikedemo; 05/16/2001 at 09:54 AM.
    -Mikedemo
    It's all about how you spend the money.
  5.    #45  
    Thanks Mike!

    To further illustrate my point, has everyone read reviews of the HandEra 330. They basically took the Palm III form-factor, and improved upon it. HandEra basically threw everything into the 330, and resulted in a great handheld.

    So why can't Palm do to the Palm V form-factor what HandEra did to the Palm III form factor? I know that size is a limitation, but HandEra fitted two expansion slot, a jog dial, room for 4 AAA's, an AC adapter connection for the optional lithium battery, a voice recorder, and a speaker all without increase the size, surely Palm could have done just a little more.
    Fat's
  6. #46  
    Originally posted by Fat_Man
    surely Palm could have done just a little more.
    Joe CEO doesn't want anything more.

    Let's join Joe's thought process, already in progress:
    Joe CEO:
    "Looks good, feels good, kind of "colorish", and the case matches my paltinum Rolex.... "
    Last edited by Slot_Machine; 05/16/2001 at 10:29 AM.
    "That IS a Palm III form-factor in my pocket, AND I'm happy to see you...."
  7. #47  
    I recently purchased the Prism after looking at the m505 in the store. You may have read my earlier post where I said that when the salesperson at Staples pulled the m505 out of the box for me to look at, he turned it on, and asked me if I knew where the contrast button was.....Well, you know and I know, there IS no contrast button.
    I am an original Vdx user from way back, you know, during the 6 week wait time. I loved my Vdx. But I really wanted to go color. I thought I was unbiased. I thought I was open-minded.

    But, geez, when the FIRST thought of the salesperson is-'Where is the contrast button?"....

    I went Prism. Yeah, the price will probably come down now. Staples graciously did an exchange for my ****ty IIIc(can't read graffiti...see I CAN be a switch hitter)
    and they did a price match $405.

    The color screen is great, graffiti is great, SplashPhoto is my new favorite app. I already had a backup mod, modem, keyboard, now memplug on order, 64mb SM on order,

    I wanted the m505 form, but I don't think it's time yet.
    Maybe next year.....I can wait, my Prism is easily filling the giant shoes left by Vdx.

    CONS:
    1.outdoor sucks, I don't remember Vdx being impossible to read. But, I figure I can get a case with a flip cover maybe to fix this.
    2.battery life is scary, I just never thought about it with Vdx. I will HAVE to invest in the ac adapter & car charger I found at talestuff.com just so I can travel in peace & w/o laptop.
    "I cannot live without books." Thomas Jefferson
  8. #48  
    Here's part of a review from the Gadgeteer.com I read about the Palm M505.

    Right about now, I can hear everyone saying "ok, ok, enough about the boring buttons, and dimensions, tell me about the color screen!".... Well, ok then! The m505 color display is VERY similar to the color display that the iPAQ uses. It is also a reflective display which makes it very easy to read outdoors in the full sunlight. Unfortunately, it also makes it hard to read in normal indoor conditions. First of all, let me say that I own both the Visor Prism and the Palm IIIc. Both of these units have color displays that are non-reflective. These units are very bright and easy to see in any lighting conditions EXCEPT outdoors in the sun. I also have an iPAQ and it took me awhile to get used to its display because it is dimmer than the Active Matrix TFT displays like the IIIc, and Prism have. Now that I am used to it, I'm glad for the ability to sit out in my car on sunny days reading ebooks. Indoors, I can turn on the backlight and have several brightness settings to choose from which makes viewing very comfortable. I sometimes still wish for the bright IIIc / Prism screen though. The colors are so much more vibrant than those on the iPAQ even at its brightest setting. Ok, so why am I talking so much about the iPAQ? Mainly because of the fact that the m505 display with no backlight turned on is pretty much like the iPAQ display with no backlight turned on. With this setting it works great outdoors in sunlight. But inside even under office florescent lighting, I found myself tipping the PDA at different angles in order to catch the light for better viewing.

    By holding down the power button, you can turn the backlight on. With the backlight on, the screen is still pretty dim. I would compare the brightness to an iPAQ on the lowest bright setting. I typically use my iPAQ on the highest brightness setting. The m505 only has one bright setting, on and off. When it is on, the screen looks somewhat washed out. The colors aren't very vibrant at all. They have more of a milky cast to them. The display isn't horrible by any means, but it is disappointing. Actually in certain lighting conditions I would say that the m505 with the backlight off is much harder to read than the m500 mono screen.

    If you are basing your PDA purchase on the quality of the color display, I personally would not choose the m505. It just isn't bright enough to suit me.


    You can read the complete review at http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/m505-review.html

    -Sulu I said On screen!!! Uh, it is sir.-
    -Mikedemo
    It's all about how you spend the money.
  9. #49  
    Originally posted by Slot_Machine


    Joe CEO doesn't want anything more.

    Let's join Joe's thought process, already in progress:
    Joe CEO probably doesn't even know how to use it.

    I work in a F500 company and let me tell you that its a laugher for me in these meetings seeing these guys trying to beam business cards. Most never even knew they could beam. Ofcourse I don't laugh out loud .
    -Mikedemo
    It's all about how you spend the money.
  10. #50  
    Originally posted by mikedemo


    Most never even knew they could beam.
    Yup. Much less work with digital photos, etc. That type of user is the lowest common denominator. But Palm loves 'em....
    "That IS a Palm III form-factor in my pocket, AND I'm happy to see you...."
  11.    #51  
    As much as I'm disappointed in Palm's current products, I do support the Palm OS in general. This is raised another issue of concern, Clearly Palm now is not the Palm a year or two ago. I'm sure people remember how Palm stood up to Microsoft when they (MS) were poised to invade the handheld arena with the Pocket PC. Palm not only withstand the MIcrosoft giant, they kick their a$$!! That was Palm in the height of it's glory.

    Now with reports that Palm is losing its marketshares, inventory problems, consumme dis-satisfation with the m505 etc... AND news of the Pocket PC 5.0 (I think) looming in the horizon, can Palm withstand another Microsoft assult?

    Remember; HandEra, Handspring, and Sony(at least the Clie) all are intimately tied to the Palm OS, so if Palm goes, so will they.

    Wonder why Jeff Hawkins hinted that Handspring may not use the Palm OS exclusively, and that another OS may be in the future. Now recently Handspring has partnered with MS....
    Last edited by Fat_Man; 05/16/2001 at 12:15 PM.
    Fat's
  12. #52  
    Originally posted by Fat_Man
    . . . Wonder why Jeff Hawkins hinted that Handspring may not use the Palm OS exclusively, and that another OS may be in the future.
    That may be a good thing. Palm is moving way too slow. Jeff want to push the envelope and still have it expandable and affordable. I say cool deal, do whatcha gotta do.

    -its all good-
    -Mikedemo
    It's all about how you spend the money.
  13. #53  
    Originally posted by Fat_Man
    Remember; HandEra, Handspring, and Sony(at least the Clie) all are intimately tied to the Palm OS, so if Palm goes, so will they.
    What makes you think that they wouldn't just start a development project of their own? HandEra has some pretty good programmers from what I've observed of their TRG products. Handspring has the guy who came up with the original thing. Maybe PalmOS would suddenly become open source after somebody buys up Palm's assets on the auction block (that's assuming the worst-case would happen).

    Wonder why Jeff Hawkins hinted that Handspring may not use the Palm OS exclusively, and that another OS may be in the future. Now recently Handspring has partnered with MS....
    MS_N_. Not quite the same thing. This is like saying that if somebody appears on a show on MSNBC that they're suddenly in bed with Bill Gates.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  14. #54  
    BTW, the US models to do have brighter screens than the Hungarian ones.

    Personally, I think some of you don't understand the Palm philosophy: keep it simple, stupid. You're thinking that simply because Microsft is cramming as many features as it can into a PocketPC, Palm is now going too slow with innovation. The main reason Palm is losing market share is because of this: Palm now refers to the entire Palm-OS community, and it is no accident.

    Well, if you look back at things, Palm never really invented anything! It just improved upon what existed. The first REAL palm-like PDA was the Newton, which Palm basically copied, and improved upon! Same goes with the 5 series, they simply took their old Palm, and made it better. Now, Palm is letting its licensees do the same. Since you all seem to be adept at whining about Palm's lack of innovation, you seem to be forgetting, that THAT is not the route Palm is taking: the sole innovater for the Palm OS platform. You continuously accuse Palm of "copying" ideas from Handspring/Sony. Perhaps you need to do some research on Palm's idea of licensing out its OS. It's no mistake. Palm continues to innovate (whether you admit it or not) , but simply because other companies innovate on the platform too (unlike PPC as of now) you seem to think this is spelling out Palm's doom.

    While Palm WILL continue to lose market share, I think they have also planned this. If Palm always innovated ahead of every other company, there would be no Handspring, Clie, or HandEra, certainly not as we know them now. You see, now we have a CHOICE on the Palm OS platform.

    Also, if Palm would end up going, I'm sure the software OS division would always remain, but I doubt its hardware division would be going anywhere soon. In my opinion, the M505 is perfect for those of us who use it for organization / note taking, who will want to be able to snap on some chic devices (when they arrive this fall... if ever..) with something that looks superb, has good color (US version), nice battery life, and fits unobtrusively in your pocket. Not those who want to impress their friends with how many features you can cram into a bulkier PDA that costs as much as a mini-laptop! (Although, while I hate Sony, they're giving us the best of both worlds!)


    I think Handspring has too much sense to go with the PPC platform. Down the road, more options will be availible (I wanna see a NewtonX module!) for an OS, and that's what I think Handspring is referring too. But will the Palm OS vanish? Not anytime soon, and certainly not as a result of Microsoft! PocketPC's will always maintain a portion of the market if you must compare them, but despite people's whining over the PalmOS platform, it's got far more potential now than PPC does, since companies like Kyocera and Sony are proving that it can be taken to new limits, without being excessive (or ugly!)

    But
    <b><font size=1 color=teal>"Sorry about the whole thing about losing your life savings, but that Palmpilot is property of Enron, so please give it back"
  15.    #55  
    What makes you think that they wouldn't just start a development project of their own? HandEra has some pretty good programmers from what I've observed of their TRG products. Handspring has the guy who came up with the original thing.
    Nothing. I agree with you completely. I'm only saying that HandEra and Handspring both rely on the Palm OS at the moment. It is completely possible that HandEra and Handspring can come up with their own OS, but in the present whatever that affects Palm will ultimately trickle down to the licensees. So if Palm drops the ball, the whole team losses.

    I hate to be the forcaster of doom and gloom. I'm only saying what might can happen. IMHO, Palm needs to wake-up and shape-up. At its present condition, I don't think Palm can take on Microsoft again. If the Pocket PC 5.0 prove to be even somewhat competitive, easier to use, and better software support, Palm's market share could be in trouble. If software developers start see Palm on the decline, they may switch their future investment and developement to the Pocket PC.

    STOP!!! I am not supporting the Pocket PC, don't flame me!!!

    My full support is with the Palm OS, I just think that Palm needs a wake-up call before it's too late.
    Fat's
  16.    #56  
    Personally, I think some of you don't understand the Palm philosophy: keep it simple, stupid.
    I don't think that you understand, "Keep it simple, stupid." is not philosophy, it's a catch phrase!

    Palm has evolved way beyond keeping things simple. SD cards, MMC cards, glowhacks, reflective screens, rechargable lithium polymer battery, audible, flashing, and/or vibrating alarms... Maybe the right phrase is "keep it earier to user than a Pocket PC."

    Well, if you look back at things, Palm never really invented anything! It just improved upon what existed. The first REAL palm-like PDA was the Newton, which Palm basically copied, and improved upon! Same goes with the 5 series, they simply took their old Palm, and made it better. Now, Palm is letting its licensees do the same. Since you all seem to be adept at whining about Palm's lack of innovation, you seem to be forgetting, that THAT is not the route Palm is taking:
    There is no way that a technological hardware company can survive if it takes the route "improving" other's innovations. One of the biggest reason is the consumer base. Think about who really buys these handhelds. Not the average Joe, if they needed something to organize their schedule, they can go and get a DayPlanner for $10. People who buys these PDA's falls into two catagories. First, people are people who are electronically savvy (gadget-lovers), who keeps up with technology. The second group are those who just the the latest and greatest out there (I think Slot_Machine called them "Joe CEO's").

    Now if Palm takes the path of basically improving existing innovations, their products will always be 6-8 months behind on features. Now will "Joe CEO" want to buy that? No! Joe would want to latest and greatest! So Palm will lose sales from at customer base. Now will electronically savvy people want a product that's 6-months behind?

    Gadget lover
    Hmm...the m505 has 16-bit color and 160x160 resolution, I've seen that in the Prism already. Hmm..the Clie has 320x320 resolution, jog dial, multimedia, and an MP3 player? Well, I have not seen that in a palm machine before!!
    Fat's
  17. #57  
    Well I finally had a hands on with the m505. Have you all ever taken a full-color page from the newspaper and left it in the sun for a few days? Well that's how I would describe the display. You could tell there were a lot of colors, but they were yellowed and dull-looking. I was constantly tilting the screen and my head to try to get the right viewing angle. Probably looked like I had Terets syndrome....

    Even Joe CEO should think twice....
    "That IS a Palm III form-factor in my pocket, AND I'm happy to see you...."
  18. #58  
    I'm sorry to say this guys but I am buying an iPaq, because of the lack of innovation. I like the Palm OS for the programs, but its not good enough.

    I'm computer savvy so getting around PPC won't be a problem, but it is kinda cool to have 206 mhz in your pocket.

    Activesync is great, and how can you beat 32mb built in? The Sony Clie NEEDS a memory stick for mm, but the iPaq doesn't.

    I'm not saying one is better hten the other, I am just saying I like it better more and it floats my boat better then the CLIE.

    If handera had color mmmm i could use htat.

    I don't care if you don't like an iPaq, its whatever YOU like you shoulda buy.

    IF I don't like my iPaq when I get it, I can always "ebay" it and get a Palm. But after using my friends iPaq...that things was like butter...mmm....
    <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" id="all" leftmargin="10" topmargin="10" marginwidth="10" marginheight="10" link="#000000" vlink="#000000" alink="#000000">

    <img src="http://www.msnbc.com/d/v/130x100/n_bush_accept_001213.jpg">

    <br><b><font color="#0000FF" size="2">Proudly led by "Dubya"</font></b></center>

    </body>
  19. #59  
    I too am disappointed in Palm too, but not that disappointed. To get a PPC yet.
    -Mikedemo
    It's all about how you spend the money.
  20. #60  
    Originally posted by Fat_Man

    There is no way that a technological hardware company can survive if it takes the route "improving" other's innovations.
    I still don't know what exactly counts as an "innovation"... Is the iPaq "innovative" because it has an MP3 player? I've had one on my PC for a couple of years already. A 200MHz processor, which existed five years ago? Is HE innovative for their landscape mode, which Radius monitors used to do like 10 years ago?

    Originally posted by Fat_Man

    Now if Palm takes the path of basically improving existing innovations, their products will always be 6-8 months behind on features.
    But as I said before, you won't get stuck with new features that don't pan out. What if the HE330 is a flop and nobody uses or programs for a 240x160 Palm screen anymore? Fat lot of good that "innovation" does you. Innovation can be a dangerous thing. Agenda is really brave in making an "innovative" Linux PDA, but come on. How many of you are secretly laughing at them?

    And, Palm's products have ALL (well, they were supposed to) of those "old" features. The m505 is supposed to have all the best things from the Vpl (fast CPU), Prism (16-bit color), Vx (form), Sony (small memory expansion), and some extra software thrown in. You could've bought any one of those 6-8 months ago, but it wouldn't have ALL of those innovations.

    I'm not defending the m505 itself, but I'm saying that innovation for the sake of innovation is overrated in the marketplace. Look at the new iBook. There is NOTHING special about it that can't be found somewhere else, but the package as a whole will probably sell like hotcakes (where the heck does that analogy come from anyway).
    Most PCs are basically just parts from different manufacturers slapped together, but companies like Dell were still making pretty good money (for a while).
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