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  1. #21  
    I think you'll be pleasantly surprised Yaz320! Wait till you see how much the OS mimics the real Windows!
    As a matter of fact I borrowed my friends iPaq for a week, and it was awesome!!! Whats wrong with windows??? I bet your are most likely on Windows.
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  2. #22  
    Originally posted by yaz320
    As a matter of fact I borrowed my friends iPaq for a week, and it was awesome!
    Great. There's nothing wrong with liking a product.

    Whats wrong with windows?
    The context. On a 3" screen, hierarchical menus, start buttons (regardless of how they're disguised), splash screens (a disease that's infecting more and more third party Palm apps as well), etc. are more disruptive than helpful, at least for me.

    I bet your are most likely on Windows.
    Irrelevant. Linux Mandrake 7.1 is my primary desktop, but I have almost no interest in Linux handhelds. And on a 19" monitor, the Palm OS would suck.
  3. #23  
    Originally posted by Toby


    I'm not so sure that it's fair to consider these Palm's innovations since they weren't done under the leadership of the current Palm people. They were done under the leadership of _Handspring's_ current people (although the Palm VII was supposedly done under duress).
    True, but then you could be the devil's advocate and also say that HS wasn't innovative because Springboard, USB, 33MHz, 16-bit color, etc. were done by _Palm's_ old people. (Just being difficult. )
  4. #24  
    Right on D70. Mr. Stankowski at Palm has already stated that Palm's not gonna explore the boundries. They're gonna build the foundation for it's licensees, and improve off of their products

    The Five-Series form factor? Nobody does it better than Palm. The expansion? Sure, Handspring & Sony have done this before, except these "supposed" SD modules will be something amazing if they ever come out. You'll never see that from Handspring or Sony. Maybe something close.

    And Palm wants to stick to the basics, without falling hideously behind. And to be honest, they've done this extraordinarily well. Look at how Palm has progressed the Handheld insdustry software-wise! The Mobile Internet Kit? The Cute-but-pointless Faceplates? Palm simply doesn't want to be the Handheld Giant. It wants to be just "another company" and focus more in on something more important: the Palm community. Not just Palm Users, Handspring users, HandEra Users, Kyocera Users, and Sony Users.

    That is why I think the Palm OS will never be overcome by PPC.

    Oh, BTW, some notes:

    I'm running Mac OSX!
    Dubinsky? Yankowsky? Boris Yeltson! (j/k) ha ha ... not funny

    And how much longer do you think it is before Jeff Hawkins leaves to form another start-up PDA company?
    <b><font size=1 color=teal>"Sorry about the whole thing about losing your life savings, but that Palmpilot is property of Enron, so please give it back"
  5.    #25  
    The Five-Series form factor? Nobody does it better than Palm.
    I agree, the Palm V form factor is pretty cool, but the emphasis is the Palm V form factor. The shape of the m500/m505 IS more than two years old, how long does Palm expect to keep that shape without it becoming boring? I would like to see Palm do it again...come up with another trend setting shape. Again, it has being over two years! Is it not about time for an update?

    The expansion? Sure, Handspring & Sony have done this before, except these "supposed" SD modules will be something amazing if they ever come out. You'll never see that from Handspring or Sony. Maybe something close.
    I would like to add more to that statement. Do you realize that there are no SD modules except memory in existence yet?

    From PalmInfocenter:
    "The models from Palm use the SD standard and the SD Card Association hasn't yet finalized the specification needed to let input/output devices work. This will delay any SDIO devices until at least this Fall.

    Palm has been showing an array of mock-ups of SD slot peripherals for months but all appear to be non-functional and none of them has even a projected release date or price."


    In other words, not only are the SD modules not on the drawing board, the drawing board is not even there yet!!
    Read further: http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_S...1787&MODE=FLAT

    Sony also has memory stick modules schedule to be ready in the fall. In fact, IMHO, their arsenal of modules rival that of, if not surpass, Palm's.
    http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_S...1778&MODE=FLAT

    Handspring, on the other hand, has over 40 working modules on the market, their springboard slot was design for expansion, making them more versatile. So clearly, Handspring has the upper hand in the expansion market.

    And Palm wants to stick to the basics, without falling hideously behind. And to be honest, they've done this extraordinarily well. Look at how Palm has progressed the Handheld insdustry software-wise!
    Yeah, then explain to me why m500/m505 users have to use software develope by Clie users to access files and programs stored in the SD card?


    And how much longer do you think it is before Jeff Hawkins leaves to form another start-up PDA company?
    I think the more appropriate question is: How much longer before Hawkins and company overtake Palm and buy it?
    Last edited by Fat_Man; 05/14/2001 at 11:16 PM.
    Fat's
  6. #26  
    Well, here's where I think you're wrong. The 5 series form factor is so good, the only thing Palm could have done was to fine-tune it. And that's what they did. They got rid of the excess bulk, and rounded off some of its corners. The 5 series form, while old, still looks chic. And someone else has yet to improve on it (Handspring!)(Sony!) . I think if you actually SAW an M505/M500 right next to say... an iPaq, you'd be quite impressed what Palm has done to it. You really cannot judge it by the photos.

    Now, keep in mind the Pam also uses MMC cards. We may thank our Napster-hating RIAA for causing such a mess with this SMDI khrap. Truth is, within 3 days of its release, there will be a code to crack it, and you can bet that it will fit nicely within a loophole of the DMCA. However, MMC is already supported. I think in the future, the SD slot will be wonderful. If you need something now, it's either Handspring or Sony.

    And finally, just because some apps used for the Memorystick are still useful for the palm M5X series doesn't mean they don't push the envelope on software innovation on their OS. Just because Mac OSX doesn't have an included hack for the dock bar on the bottom of the screen doesn't mean it isn't to date the World's most advanced desktop capable OS. (Note: desktop capable.) The same goes for Palm. They're trying out something new, and it's still got bugs.

    Once again, you're nitpicking at Palm.
    <b><font size=1 color=teal>"Sorry about the whole thing about losing your life savings, but that Palmpilot is property of Enron, so please give it back"
  7. #27  
    Yeah, it's pretty hard to top the V.
    If it never happens, I won't really be surprised.
    "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds." -- Albert Einstein
  8. #28  
    Originally posted by Fat_Man

    I agree, the Palm V form factor is pretty cool, but the emphasis is the Palm V form factor. The shape of the m500/m505 IS more than two years old, how long does Palm expect to keep that shape without it becoming boring? I would like to see Palm do it again...come up with another trend setting shape. Again, it has being over two years! Is it not about time for an update?
    First, they did come up with another trend-setting shape, the m100 series, which has supposedly been quite popular. Second, they probably want to stick with something recognizable as a high-end Palm, and something suitably "executive looking" and not too wild. I don't know how many leopard m100 face plates or orange imacs end up in executive offices... Finally, I agree with bblue that you're really picking the nits here. Apple hasn't updated their iMac or PowerMac in a couple of years either.

    Originally posted by Fat_Man

    I would like to add more to that statement. Do you realize that there are no SD modules except memory in existence yet?
    How many springboard modules were available two years ago? Although I agree that SB is better than SD for expansion, we should see what Palm&Co come up with first before condemning them.

    Finally, again I don't know that being the innovator is worth that many points to most consumers. If you're too innovative people will be afraid to buy -- worries of incompatibilities, new learning curve, broad industry support and standards, bugs in the initial releases. How long will it take the Itanium to actually work well, or for people to buy Pentium 4's, or for Apple to phase out OS9.1 and earlier? People are more willing to buy something more stable, which is what Palm provides. It's a tough market out there especially these days.
    Last edited by dalamar70; 05/15/2001 at 12:50 AM.
  9.    #29  
    And finally, just because some apps used for the Memorystick are still useful for the palm M5X series doesn't mean they don't push the envelope on software innovation on their OS. Just because Mac OSX doesn't have an included hack for the dock bar on the bottom of the screen doesn't mean it isn't to date the World's most advanced desktop capable OS. (Note: desktop capable.) The same goes for Palm. They're trying out something new, and it's still got bugs.
    Again, I really hate to "nitpick", but Palm is NOT "trying out something new"!! The SD/MMC card access through the VFS (virtual file system) was developed by Sony. That was my point, Palm is {B]NOT[/B] pushing the envelope in anything, their licensees are, and Palm is merely copying it. That's why software that worked in the Clie worked in the new Palms.

    The 5 series form factor is so good, the only thing Palm could have done was to fine-tune it.
    I agree, the Palm V form factor is good, but I think it is unwise to remain stagnant and fixated on a particular form.

    Now, keep in mind the Pam also uses MMC cards.
    Ok, so the palm can use MMC cards. Are there any modules? I'm asking cause I don't know, but I have not read about any MMC palm compatible modules.
    Last edited by Fat_Man; 05/15/2001 at 01:31 AM.
    Fat's
  10.    #30  
    How many springboard modules were available two years ago? Although I agree that SB is better than SD for expansion, we should see what Palm&Co come up with first before condemning them.
    I agree, and I don't have any condemnation toward the SD modules. The point I wanted to stress was on the other end of the spectum. BBlue made a statement that the SD module will be something "amazing". I was only trying to point out that we don't know that they "will be amazing" because they have not yet been developed yet.

    Second, they probably want to stick with something recognizable as a high-end Palm
    That's also a good point, I guess Palm can retain the Palm V shape for product recognition, like the grill on a BMW. That is a good reason for retaining the shape. Good point!! I take my stagnant image back.
    Last edited by Fat_Man; 05/15/2001 at 01:29 AM.
    Fat's
  11. #31  
    Ok ok I've taken the high road on this.

    Some one said ITHO to stop complaining about the 505 until you've had it under real world conditions. Which was saying take test drive, before judging it. Ok fair is fair. So that's what did yesterday (You can tell I don't have a wife yet )

    After one day with it so far I can't see how you can replace your Prism with this thing.

    As I've said before, the Palm M505 form factor is the best around. I am totally in love with this wallet sized PDA shape (are listening Handspring ). The ability to sync directly to the internal 8MB or my ($80)64MB MMC card also is a big plus, especially if you want to put alot of photos or big files on your Palm device. A good many apps can run on the card as well. Though I did find a good many that didn't work too.

    Well that's it for the nice stuff . . . now the ugly stuff.

    The screen is the number one reason to stay away from the M505. Unless you plan to be right under stadium lights (actually bright light situations) or outside a lot, you will be very disappointed with it. Probably more than the performance of your Prism outside. Many times I couldn't even see color on this M505. I tried reading Avantgo on the train and the screen looked more like a monochrome display, and with the side light on it just wasn't bright enough. $449 for this? By the way. . . even though the light is dim, it doesn't save much power. I've used my Prism longer with reading Avantgo and listening to my SoundsGood Audioplayer in the device at the same time (with the music cranked) and have used less power.

    Here's a list IMHO to help you decided whether to buy a M505 or a Prism.

    Performance
    Processor speed - M505/Prism
    Hotsync speed - M505/Prism

    Best Form Factor
    Fits in Pocket - M505
    Weight - M505
    Initial wow factor to others - M505

    $80 gets me how much ram?
    M505 - 64MB MMC card (sync directly to without a special app)
    VDX/Plat/Prism - 8 MB Flash module SB

    Screen Performance
    None to Low Light - Prism
    Medium Lighting(average room) - Prism
    Bright Lighting (indoors) - M505/Prism
    Very Bright (outdoors) - M505
    Screen cover - M505
    Color quality - Prism!!!!

    Alarms
    The built in vibrating alarm on the M505 is great. It would save Prism users a module to buy. You can also be alerted by a flashing light or the louder speaker built in.

    Applications
    With Handsprings' DateBook+ powerful views and better snooze options, the Visor Prism wins hands down straight out of the box. I found going back to the Palm DateBook was a step backwards.

    Miscelaneous
    Stylus quality - Prism
    Detailing - M505 (no need to worry about paint coming off)
    Useful expansion modules - Prism

    I really wanna be fair but I am disappointed with the Palm M505. I'm giving it a week then I'll more than likley returning and put the money towards a Clie N710c .

    Palm should have waited a couple of months before releasing this baby and got it right. On the surface it looks good!!! But don't judge a book by its cover.

    -All that gliters ain't gold-
    Last edited by mikedemo; 05/15/2001 at 09:37 PM.
    -Mikedemo
    It's all about how you spend the money.
  12. #32  
    BTW, before I go on, look in this month's issue of PC Magazine (the front cover is about email) for an add that says "Free Visor Deluxe!" (with a PC purchase) They show a Visor Prism! I wonder if anyone has taken them to court, knowing how sue-happy everyone seems to be.

    ---

    NEways, I would not classify the M505 as a replacement to the Prism if the reason you bought the Prism, was the BEST color screen around. (However, read my idea for a Springboard module if so!) You should get the M505 if you want a V series with a decent color screen. Some will be satisfied, others won't. If you must HAVE a nice color screen, wait about a year until some brightness hacks are made (you just know theres someone out there who can defy the laws of Palm!) / Palm brightens the backlight.

    (Although, a tiny stowaway clip-on light in that SD expansion slot seems AOK to me!)


    Oh yes, BTW, the M505 looks perfect in total darkness. Not blinding like the Prism (when it's set to max) AND you can see the SilkScreen! And while the brightness is not something to write home about, in half-light situations, it beats the nearly-impossible-to-read Vx, and the "Magically Dissapearing" VDX.
    <b><font size=1 color=teal>"Sorry about the whole thing about losing your life savings, but that Palmpilot is property of Enron, so please give it back"
  13. #33  
    Originally posted by bblue
    . . . Oh yes, BTW, the M505 looks perfect in total darkness. Not blinding like the Prism (when it's set to max) AND you can see the SilkScreen! And while the brightness is not something to write home about, in half-light situations, it beats the nearly-impossible-to-read Vx, and the "Magically Dissapearing" VDX.
    Atleast the VDX has a contrast control so that problem can be resolved.

    As far as the M505 goes. It's not even a good replacement for a VDX. You might as well go for a Edge or an M500. If you want color, go for the Prism or the Sony Clie hell an iPaq (I'm tempted at times ). Why the hell should I need a hack to see decent color. Lets just put it this way. I showed the screen to Palm V and Clie users who have monochrome screens and they thought the M505 was hard to see.

    -Yeah in the Dark it looks greats-
    -Mikedemo
    It's all about how you spend the money.
  14. Rob
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    #34  
    Originally posted by mikedemo

    Screen Performance
    None to Low Light - Prism
    I disagree; many people (including myself) feel that the Prism's backlight is too bright/contrasty for comfortable reading at night (plus the black 'grid' lines are more noticable on the Prism than on the m505). In low to no light conditions, the m505's greatest weakness (less bright/lower constrast) is actually an advantage.
  15. #35  
    Originally posted by Rob


    I disagree; many people (including myself) feel that the Prism's backlight is too bright/contrasty for comfortable reading at night (plus the black 'grid' lines are more noticable on the Prism than on the m505). In low to no light conditions, the m505's greatest weakness (less bright/lower constrast) is actually an advantage.
    Are you looking at the same device?

    The Prism's brightness can be adjust. At its lowest setting the Prism can be dimmer than the 505 in the dark.

    Don't get me wrong. Outside the 505 looks great. But indoors I am grossed out. I gotta tilt the thing to get the light at the right angle to get the best viewing.

    I think part of the problem is that the background is almost the same color as the case. Thats why people complained about how the screen looked in the stores. Dark.
    Last edited by mikedemo; 05/15/2001 at 04:04 PM.
    -Mikedemo
    It's all about how you spend the money.
  16. Rob
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    #36  
    Originally posted by mikedemo
    Lets just put it this way. I showed the screen to Palm V and Clie users who have monochrome screens and they thought the M505 was hard to see.
    Well, let me put it this way: I've showed my m505 to several palm users and non-palm users indoors, and everyone thought the screen was perfectly readable (and colorful enough that when I showed them pictures they didn't comment on it looking washed out). I have also owned and regularly used both a Prism and an m505, so I'm not basing my judgments on simply looking at a demo model under store lights. You also didn't mention in your list that the m505's battery life is far better than the Prism's (one of the main reasons I switched), which is also a result of their screen brightness design choices. I know that the screen is not for everyone, and there also appear to be some significant variances between different m505 screens for some reason, but I don't think that we need to be making statements like:

    Unless you plan to be right under stadium lights (actually bright light situations) or outside a lot, you will be very disappointed with it.
    That's a very exaggerated and misleading statement, just like saying:

    Unless you plan on carrying your cradle with you everywhere you go, you will be very disappointed with the Prism's battery life.
    Both these statements are based on facts, but they are biased and overblown statements that assume the reader has the same preferences you do, and don't help a prospective buyer make an educated decision.
  17. #37  
    Originally posted by Rob
    I know that the screen is not for everyone, and there also appear to be some significant variances between different m505 screens for some reason . . .

    . . . Both these statements are based on facts, but they are biased and overblown statements that don't help a prospective buyer make an educated decision.
    There must be a huge variance in screen quality. Maybe NY got a bunch of bad ones?

    All of this is based on fact . . . mine. I just got the thing and have been testing it under many conditions. I found the screen was ultimatley best outside. I have no hate for Palm. So maybe it is the contrast on this device then?

    For you guys to defend it so much you must have some serious lighting because I've shown it to over 25 people and they all said the same thing. Too dim in average lighting. There was better contrast on the Palm V, Clie, and VDX that we had present.

    So tell me whats the prob? replace it?
    Last edited by mikedemo; 05/15/2001 at 04:18 PM.
    -Mikedemo
    It's all about how you spend the money.
  18. #38  
    Originally posted by mikedemo


    There must be a huge variance in screen quality. Maybe NY got a bunch of bad ones?

    All of this is based on fact . . . mine. I just got the thing and have been testing it under many conditions. I found the screen was ultimatley best outside. I have no hate for Palm. So maybe it is the contrast on this device then?

    For you guys to defend it so much you must have some serious lighting because I've shown it to over 25 people and they all said the same thing. Too dim in average lighting. There was better contrast on the Palm V, Clie, and VDX that we had present.

    So tell me whats the prob? replace it?
    From reading the various boards, there seems to be a fairly large variation of brightness. A number of people that have reported dim screens have m505s manufactured in Hungary. A number of them have said that they compared their units to US units and saw a huge difference. There were also one or two reports of dim US made m505s, but they seem to be the exception.

    It is possible that you have one of the dim ones. Just out of curiosity, where was it made. Try going into a store (or stores) and compare to display units. If they are brighter (with the backlight on), you might want to think about an exchange.

    Of the dozens of people that I have shown my m505 to, there is not a single one who has even commented on the display being too dark.

    There may this kind of variation on other color units like the Prism or IIIc, but with an adjustable backlight, you would be unlikely to notice.

    BTW - Even though I love the m505, I do wish that Palm had made the backlight adjustable so that I could decide how to use my battery.
  19. Rob
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    #39  
    Hey Brad,

    Have you noticed any improvement in speed when you went from a visor to the m505? Maybe I'm just imagining it (it wouldn't be the first time ), but I could swear that when I loaded all my stuff onto my m505 this morning, it was incredibly fast compared to my Prism's hotsyncs.
  20. #40  
    Originally posted by bradhaak


    From reading the various boards, there seems to be a fairly large variation of brightness. A number of people that have reported dim screens have m505s manufactured in Hungary. A number of them have said that they compared their units to US units and saw a huge difference. There were also one or two reports of dim US made m505s, but they seem to be the exception.

    It is possible that you have one of the dim ones. Just out of curiosity, where was it made. Try going into a store (or stores) and compare to display units. If they are brighter (with the backlight on), you might want to think about an exchange.

    Of the dozens of people that I have shown my m505 to, there is not a single one who has even commented on the display being too dark.

    There may this kind of variation on other color units like the Prism or IIIc, but with an adjustable backlight, you would be unlikely to notice.

    BTW - Even though I love the m505, I do wish that Palm had made the backlight adjustable so that I could decide how to use my battery.

    Well atleast you know I am not lying. I will investigate tomorrow.

    Is there a way to tell where it was made by some marking or a serial#?
    -Mikedemo
    It's all about how you spend the money.
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