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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcol View Post
    Thankfully, HTC don't share your hubris. As we've discussed before, they're a company faced with a collapse in share price driven by a loss of contract orders and fears that they lack of new growth drivers, but they're at least trying to address the latter with the Touch. I've posted this FT article before but it's relevant here (also the original post has been moved to a different web site now):


    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/ac37c500-13b...b5df10621.html

    Time will tell if the Touch will allow them to "move beyond [their] niche of business devices" but the reviews are quite poor, largely for a reason that was completely predictable (UI inconsistency).


    I don't think anyone is suggesting they should abandon WM (I certainly wasn't). If the Touch and/or other TouchFLO devices fail to give them the breakthrough in the consumer market they'll be faced with choices. I'm sure they know a fair bit about Photon and perhaps believe that will solve the problems. If that's the case then TouchFLO may just be a stop-gap that they'll happily abandon it in a year's time. Seems a bit unlikely though that they'd commit what presumably is substantial development to something and then so readily discard it. IMO, UIQ could give them a major presence in the consumer market relatively quickly. This would add to the business-market presence that their WM devices give them and provide a very substantial new growth driver.
    Ive heard your interpretation of events before, but it does not mean its right. You say "loss of contract orders", I say shedding. It was not an accident, but a calculated move to brand their own devices and increase margins.

    Their share price is down, but this reflects lack of confidence in their strategy. So far they seem to be executing pretty well.

    You speak as if the Touch is their last and only hope, when its just another device they have released, from a rather large stable. The Dash is doing pretty well on T-Mobile, the E650/Vox has rave reviews, and the Touch is selling out all over the place.

    HTC does not have the iPhone hype to make up for the deficiencies of their devices, but its rather misleading to suggest they are a one product company in a perilous position.

    Surur
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Ive heard your interpretation of events before, but it does not mean its right. You say "loss of contract orders", I say shedding. It was not an accident, but a calculated move to brand their own devices and increase margins.
    In case it wasn't obvious from my last post the phrase "loss of contract orders" was precisely the one used by the Financial Times.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Their share price is down, but this reflects lack of confidence in their strategy. So far they seem to be executing pretty well.

    You speak as if the Touch is their last and only hope, when its just another device they have released, from a rather large stable. The Dash is doing pretty well on T-Mobile, the E650/Vox has rave reviews, and the Touch is selling out all over the place.
    I do think the Touch marks a departure for HTC. IMO, it marks their first real attempt at the consumer market. Much more importantly, Peter Chou, President of HTC, thinks the same thing.

    Of course, I never said it was their "last and only hope". I was talking about Chou's stated desire, which the FT perceives as a need, to enter the consumer market, and clearly mentioned both other TouchFLO devices and Photon devices as a possible routes by which that might be achieved. For TouchFLO devices that does seem a little unlikely to me (unless Touch FLO can be much more radically integrated into the WM UI). Obviously the main point I was making was that UIQ could also give them the consumer presence they desire. I guess that can be characterised as a "hope" as well, if you want to look at it in those terms.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcol View Post
    I do think the Touch marks a departure for HTC. IMO, it marks their first real attempt at the consumer market. Much more importantly, Peter Chou, President of HTC, thinks the same thing.

    Of course, I never said it was their "last and only hope". I was talking about Chou's stated desire, which the FT perceives as a need, to enter the consumer market, and clearly mentioned both other TouchFLO devices and Photon devices as a possible routes by which that might be achieved. For TouchFLO devices that does seem a little unlikely to me (unless Touch FLO can be much more radically integrated into the WM UI). Obviously the main point I was making was that UIQ could also give them the consumer presence they desire. I guess that can be characterised as a "hope" as well, if you want to look at it in those terms.
    The Touch is just their latest attempt. The HTC Magician was their first, and was sold in pink colours, if you recall. The HTC Artemis (GPS device) was also aimed at consumers. And how soon we forget the HTC StrTrk?

    There is no point in creating a false sense of crisis. The WM market has seen consistent growth, and HTC is a key part of it. They shed some business, but will in return have higher margins, and are already in the process of return to strong growth.

    One day they may release a Symbian device, but its unlikely to be successful currently, as people buy them for the WM OS. The consumer public does not buy Symbian devices for their OS, therefore they would gain nothing by moving in that direction. They buy it for the brand and hardware features, be it Nokia or Sony Ericsson.

    Surur
  4. #24  
    too bad for that slideout keyboard, really. could've been a contender but some business user might like it (as long as he doesn't have to type very often).
    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by oalvarez View Post
    too bad for that slideout keyboard, really. could've been a contender but some business user might like it (as long as he doesn't have to type very often).
    Next generation.

    Surur
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    One day they may release a Symbian device, but its unlikely to be successful currently, as people buy them for the WM OS. The consumer public does not buy Symbian devices for their OS, therefore they would gain nothing by moving in that direction. They buy it for the brand and hardware features, be it Nokia or Sony Ericsson.
    I agree that, historically, most consumers haven't really bought phones because of the OS per se. I do think the UI is a consideration though and that the features supported are important too. Both of those, obviously, are to a significant extent OS dependent. We'll just have to wait and see whether HTC will need another OS to break into the (much larger) consumer market. I do personally think that they will need something beyond TouchFLO (as it's currently incarnated at least), but time will certainly tell.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcol View Post
    I agree that, historically, most consumers haven't really bought phones because of the OS per se. I do think the UI is a consideration though and that the features supported are important too. Both of those, obviously, are to a significant extent OS dependent. We'll just have to wait and see whether HTC will need another OS to break into the (much larger) consumer market. I do personally think that they will need something beyond TouchFLO (as it's currently incarnated at least), but time will certainly tell.
    No doubt, but every device they make they edge closer to the mass market. The main way they do this is by making smaller devices with better specs, longer battery life, more attractive styling and more stable. How did RIM do it? You know the pretty UI on the Pearl is only skin deep too, and below that is just the usual text lists.

    http://www.mobileburn.com/review.jsp?Page=3&Id=2855

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 07/01/2007 at 09:22 AM.
  8. #28  
    The other thing to consider of course is that the consumer market just got a awful lot tougher. To get back to the topic of the original post, I rather suspect that not only is the Touch not an iPhone killer, I suspect that the iPhone will make it very difficult for the Touch in any market it which they're competing. Of course that's no market at all at the moment (as the the Touch isn't available in the US and the iPhone isn't available anywhere but the US), but that will change.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcol View Post
    The other thing to consider of course is that the consumer market just got a awful lot tougher. To get back to the topic of the original post, I rather suspect that not only is the Touch not an iPhone killer, I suspect that the iPhone will make it very difficult for the Touch in any market it which they're competing. Of course that's no market at all at the moment (as the the Touch isn't available in the US and the iPhone isn't available anywhere but the US), but that will change.
    Thats set to change soon, isn't it, with the iPhone coming to Europe and the HTC Vogue coming to Verizon. HTC vs Apple is a lost battle obviously, but it has more to do with brand name than anything else.

    Surur
  10. #30  
    i really want to like the Touch but am aghast with the fact that you can't easily type on it. and to think that it doesn't have 3G either; i thought that was so many people's point of contention these days? oh well. it's nice to have the WM capabilities but if you can't respond to a text or an email very easily it sure doesn't seem very useful for daily use.

    neat little phone though
    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by oalvarez View Post
    i really want to like the Touch but am aghast with the fact that you can't easily type on it. and to think that it doesn't have 3G either; i thought that was so many people's point of contention these days?
    As previously mentioned, the "Vogue" (CDMA Touch) is going to launch with EvDO Rev A, so that's your 3g for you in the States.

    I imagine they left it out of the "Touch" because they launched it globally in one shot. Since 3g networks are only in their prime in a host of countries (Surur could probably name them) they opted for included Wifi instead which has broader acceptance therefore deeper market penetration, while keeping production costs down.

    Here in the States, it's a bit different with 3g CDMA covering nearly the same area as 1x CDMA, so that's a no brainer. Poor GSM is quite behind here in the U.S. though maybe someday they'll catch up.

    I bet this launches for $199 on Verizon.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    I imagine they left it out of the "Touch" because they launched it globally in one shot. Since 3g networks are only in their prime in a host of countries (Surur could probably name them) they opted for included Wifi instead which has broader acceptance therefore deeper market penetration.

    like Apple did with the iPhone? or is the domestic US market not large enough? i was under the impression (you know, all of those apple iPhone bashing threads) that 3G was a requirement for so many around here?

    I bet this launches for $199 on Verizon.
    yes, a lower cost alternative is always welcomed by the marketplace, and one without a real keyboard shouldn't sell for much more either.

    neat little phone though...too bad you can't type very easily on the little bugger. i wonder what the mega-text'rs will think of it.
    Last edited by oalvarez; 07/10/2007 at 08:35 PM.
    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by oalvarez View Post
    yes, a lower cost alternative is always welcomed by the marketplace, and one without a real keyboard shouldn't sell for much more either.
    For $9.95 you can purchase and install a virtual keyboard like the iPhone's. Isn't third-party software a wonderful thang? Hopefully this keyboard won't bring down the entire phone system.
  14. #34  
    on a 2.8" screen? eek.

    not sure which would come first: a backspace to correct or a soft reset?! as you say, those 3rd party apps can surely be a hindrance.
    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by oalvarez View Post
    like Apple did with the iPhone? or is the domestic US market not large enough? i was under the impression (you know, all of those apple iPhone bashing threads) that 3G was a requirement for so many around here?
    Actually, it's nothing like Apple.

    Jobs said himself they left out 3g because they were not "happy" with current 3g chips and the hit on battery life so they left it out. It's nice they decide for you in these matters.

    But it had nothing to do with AT&Ts **** poor network (I understand iPhone users tell themselves that when waiting on their Edge connection to ease the pain). If it did, you wouldn't see any 3g phones for sale on AT&T or no one would care to buy them. Fact is, they have 3g and it's there and growing everyday and when it works, it's actually faster than EvDO, but you won't see that for...1 year? Of course, then we'll hopefully be on WiMax (4g), which kills HSDPA, lol.

    Furthermore, I stand by my contention that yeah...a new device should have 3g here in the States, where the iPhone is. HTC was smart to ditch Wifi and put EvDO RevA in there.

    Besides, aren't there tons of "rumors" floating around that the iPhone Euro will have 3g from the gates? That'll be an interesting event to witness in 5 months.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  16. #36  
    The lack of 3G is just HTC stratifying its product line. This is meant to be a consumer device, and their consumer devices tend to lack 3G. Recent examples include the HTC Vox and T-Mobile Dash. However they tend to follow-up with a "next generation" device with 3G, e.g. the HTC Cavalier.

    HTC is probably doing their little bit to manipulate the market and extract money from people in two stages, but the nice part is at least that they have a wide product line, so if you really want 3G you can just buy something else more powerful.

    Re the text entry - the device comes with a stylus, which is a pretty fast method of text entry, and well accepted. Its not the end of the world.

    Surur
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    The lack of 3G is just HTC stratifying its product line. This is meant to be a consumer device, and their consumer devices tend to lack 3G.
    does that mean that the iPhone is not a consumer device?


    Re the text entry - the device comes with a stylus, which is a pretty fast method of text entry, and well accepted. Its not the end of the world.
    well accepted by? i'm sure it's also some consumer's disdain. lets just face it, the Touch isn't truly meant for data entry on the fly. if you want to text/type lots of messages it's probably not the best suited device for doing so.

    neat little device though, really.
    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
  18. #38  
    TBH it falls in the iPhone category for me wrt keyboard..but it does have 3rd party apps!
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by oalvarez View Post
    does that mean that the iPhone is not a consumer device?
    Well, the iphone promised a lot more than the touch.

    well accepted by? i'm sure it's also some consumer's disdain. lets just face it, the Touch isn't truly meant for data entry on the fly. if you want to text/type lots of messages it's probably not the best suited device for doing so.

    neat little device though, really.
    Its well accepted by all the millions of people who bought pocketpc and palm devices, or the millions who bought the Sony Ericsson symbian devices with touch screens. Are hard keyboards preferable - no doubt by most in the west, but this does not mean styli are a new form of data input.

    I agree though that the Touch is not meant for data input on the fly - thats what HTC's keyboarded line is for.

    Here's HTC's own design goals for the device.



    As far as I can see they met them all.

    Surur
  20. #40  
    The HTC devices show a lot of promise and they definitely win most feature/function checklists, but after a cracked LCD on the Dash, and horrible memory leaks on the Wing, my wife is back to her trusty BB Pearl, and I'm back with my custom ROM 650. At least I don't have to soft reset twice a day to reclaim memory anymore.
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