View Poll Results: Are you jumping ship?

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  • My next will be the M500

    0 0%
  • My next will be the M505

    39 22.54%
  • My next will be the Edge

    6 3.47%
  • My next will be the new Clie

    20 11.56%
  • My next will be something else (WinCe device, Kyocera, Etc)

    13 7.51%
  • I'm sticking with what I got for the forseeable future

    95 54.91%
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  1. #81  
    b1lanceman said:
    what about loading the new version of the os as a patch on all future springboards, so in addition to the mp3 player/wireless modem/whatever the springboard was, youd also have OS 3.5 to run it. This doesnt seem like too bad an idea. To run linux on MIPS based PPC's you don't reflash the rom, you simply put the linux image on a CF card.
    This idea might work, except that every SpringBoard manufacturer would have to include the new OS. Let's say you were in the middle of a game that had initialized itself to use the 16 grayscale mode provided by the 3.5 OS that was in your modem Springboard and then you took it out and replaced it with your old 8 MB flash module that didn't have the new OS. When you restart the game, all of the graphics commands (and conceivably many other APIs that don't exist in Palm OS 3.1) are gone. The game crashes horribly. You blame the crappy game programmers. This could get even more weird if you have some modules with different OSs on them. One might be 3.5. another might be 4.0. Still others might have none at all. What's a poor program to do?

    Still another issue is to look at this from the Springboard manufacturers point of view. They would have to put the OS somewhere. This means additional components. They would also have to become Palm OS licensees and pay royalties to Palm for every cartridge sold. All this means to the end-user is more expensive and possible bigger Springboard cartridges. Additionally, manufacturers would have to make product specific versions of their modules since the the VDX, Prism, and Platinum/Edge all use different ROM images.

    It could be done, but I suspect that the logistics would be such a pain that it will never happen.
  2. #82  
    Originally posted by bradhaak
    This idea might work, except that every SpringBoard manufacturer would have to include the new OS. Let's say you were in the middle of a game that had initialized itself to use the 16 grayscale mode provided by the 3.5 OS that was in your modem Springboard and then you took it out and replaced it with your old 8 MB flash module that didn't have the new OS. When you restart the game, all of the graphics commands (and conceivably many other APIs that don't exist in Palm OS 3.1) are gone. The game crashes horribly. You blame the crappy game programmers. This could get even more weird if you have some modules with different OSs on them. One might be 3.5. another might be 4.0. Still others might have none at all. What's a poor program to do?
    I've heard this argument against OS-on-Springboard before. The solution is fairly easy, but very inconvient. The module would simply have 2MB (or more) of storage built in like many of them do. Then you would keep your 3.5 apps on the module with OS 3.5, and your 4.0 apps on the module with 4.0, etc. This works, but is, as I said, rediculously inconvient. As you stated, the real reson nobody is going to include an OS update on a Springboard is that it will cost the module producer more money. Just my $.0314159.
    "Hey! Check out these cresent-fresh skulls in my salad!"- Sifl & Olly
  3. #83  
    Originally posted by Black_Dragon

    I've heard this argument against OS-on-Springboard before. The solution is fairly easy, but very inconvient. The module would simply have 2MB (or more) of storage built in like many of them do. Then you would keep your 3.5 apps on the module with OS 3.5, and your 4.0 apps on the module with 4.0, etc. This works, but is, as I said, rediculously inconvient. As you stated, the real reson nobody is going to include an OS update on a Springboard is that it will cost the module producer more money. Just my $.0314159.
    How about a module that plugs into another half-module, which would contain the OS only. Then you have basically unlimited memory and an updated OS.
    "A fish's dreams should stay in the sea." -"Big Eyed Fish", Dave Matthews
  4. #84  
    cptncelchu asked:
    How about a module that plugs into another half-module, which would contain the OS only. Then you have basically unlimited memory and an updated OS.
    As has benn stated many times before (and not just by me), the SpringBoard bus is a simple extension of the CPU bus. There is no way to have multiple SpringBoard cartridges at the same time (which is what a pass thru amounts to). This is way outside of the Springboard specification.

    To make multiple Springboards work at once, you would essentially have to create your own bus arbitration system along with all of the software to run it. You would also have to invent some way to make the cartridge that was plugged in think that it was plugged directly to the HandSpring. Solving this problem (arbitrating in one direction and giving transparent operation in the other), might make the cartridge as expensive as the PDA that it plugs into. There is also the problem of software from the second cartridge that is running on the PDA. It was undoubtedly written to expect the cartridge to always be active. This might (or might not) cause additional problems.

    The one module at a time limitation was a conscious design decision by HandSpring, and actually makes a lot of sense when you look at the complexity and expense of providing multiple module support.
  5. #85  
    Here are my two cents. . .

    Probably like a lot of you, if not most, I have been craving the form factor of the Palm V ever since it came out. But being a med student, I have been forced to go with the device offering the most memory at the time -- Palm III to IIIx to VDx w/16MB expansion module. Since the only modules that really interest me these days are are the expansion module and Thinmodem, I have to admit the Palm 505 is too much of a good thing to pass up even without the 47+ modules available for the Visor. In all reality, probably in a few months to a year Handspring will come out with their Visor 505-type model, but until then I'll be enjoying the Palm 505's color screen and 16 MB expansion card. Cheers.
  6. #86  
    One thing that I thing everyone is forgeting, is that MOST people who own visors never buy a springboard. I never did, and I'm the guy who realy jumped ship, all the way past palm and straigt to PPC becasue of expansion.
    Sam Kleinman

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  7. #87  
    I note that there have been responses all the way up to April 10th but I can't read them. Anybody know why?
  8. #88  
    There's nothing to read, those are just votes in the poll.
    Mike
    I'd rather be upside down in my kayak than rightside up at my desk.
  9. #89  
    It is true that many people have never purchased a module...and I think this is really just a factor of how young the handheld market is yet. I don't look at the handheld market as many Palm OS users do...because as a consultant and a writer...I'm looking about a year to a year and a half ahead...

    the number one problems is that the vertical markets where these modules would and should take off...just don't know what is available yet...there aren't that many consulting firms that specialize in handheld computing yet...and not enough developers in vertical markets yet.

    I know that the average user has no use for modules...but I think that they are only targeting you at the moment because the corporate world just isn't hip to it yet.

    It will all change in time. People thought the Newton was a waste...didn't see how it could be applied...and here we are...iPaq is using the same chip the Newton did over 3 years ago. Palm and Handspring are building in card support...just like the Newton did over five years ago. the Newton had a 640x480 screen with a high greyscale resolution. It had built in fax and email ability. People just didn't see the potential. Hell I had a LAN card in mine and a Wireless Metricom modem over three years ago. I use to work in the coffee shop across from my apartment.


    It is just going to take time. I am a module freak because I need them for writing...but also I love how much they've added to my life. From wireless...to the camera...to storage...ThinModem...all have given me the ability to do things I never could before without a laptop and six other devices.
    I saw that everyone else had a signature and I felt left out, so here is mine.
  10. #90  
    Originally posted by agraham999
    It is true that many people have never purchased a module...and I think this is really just a factor of how young the handheld market is yet. I don't look at the handheld market as many Palm OS users do...because as a consultant and a writer...I'm looking about a year to a year and a half ahead...

    the number one problems is that the vertical markets where these modules would and should take off...just don't know what is available yet...there aren't that many consulting firms that specialize in handheld computing yet...and not enough developers in vertical markets yet.

    I know that the average user has no use for modules...but I think that they are only targeting you at the moment because the corporate world just isn't hip to it yet.

    It will all change in time. People thought the Newton was a waste...didn't see how it could be applied...and here we are...iPaq is using the same chip the Newton did over 3 years ago. Palm and Handspring are building in card support...just like the Newton did over five years ago. the Newton had a 640x480 screen with a high greyscale resolution. It had built in fax and email ability. People just didn't see the potential. Hell I had a LAN card in mine and a Wireless Metricom modem over three years ago. I use to work in the coffee shop across from my apartment.


    It is just going to take time. I am a module freak because I need them for writing...but also I love how much they've added to my life. From wireless...to the camera...to storage...ThinModem...all have given me the ability to do things I never could before without a laptop and six other devices.
    Yes, but you are the expetion to the rule... I would have had a newton (were they PC compatible??) if i were into this kind of thing back then....

    I too am a writer, and that I what I'm using my iPAQ for and I love it.

    sam
    Sam Kleinman

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  11. #91  
    would some mod please delet this dubble post.....


    sam
    Sam Kleinman

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    "Everybody don't like something and we all don't like you." -- Richard Thompson, Hard Luck Stories
  12. #92  
    Yes they were...I had a ThinkPad at the time...and going back to the 120 model I was using PCs and the Newton.
    I saw that everyone else had a signature and I felt left out, so here is mine.
  13. #93  
    Some thoughts that want to escape my brain:

    I'm going to stick with my Vdx for awhile. Then I'll probably move into a Prism, my Vdx will go to my wife. I hate to buy things and not wear them out. If some new PDA comes out that totally turns over the apple cart I might switch, but I'm not the kind of person who has to constantly be on the cutting edge, I did that with music when I was younger (much younger) and don't have the drive for it now. I bought my Vdx to do specific things which it does well, it also does things I didn't know it did. Some new product being shipped is not going to change the usefulness of my Vdx, although it might change my perception of it.

    It sounds like most of y'all posting are previous PDA users (meaning that you had other PDA's before you bought a Handspring product). I was enticed into buying my first PDA by Handspring. My green Vdx ran away (ok, I lost it) and I HAD to get a blue Vdx (by that time I was using it to help my day run smoother).

    I think that the PDA market will get much bigger. I live in an area where not many people (compared to NYC or LA) use PDA's. I have people checking me out all the time when I use mine. PDA's are still mysteries to the vast majority of the people I run into. At least one person has bought a Vdx because he knew I had one. As far as I know, he didn't even shop around. Lot's of new users will start to pop up around us. Some will find their PDA's to be great tools to enrich their lives, and others will end up selling/giving away their PDA's for a loss.

    Warning! The following paragraph is opinion:

    There is plenty of room for all these companies to make money. It will probably be years before the true winner shakes out. Palm has the early lead, but also lost it's resident genius. There are probably tons of great engineers working there, but unless they hook up with someone who has a strong vision they'll end up like Xerox. Sony makes cool stuff, but they're planning on their memory stick winning the battle 'cause you can use it in so many of their devices. What if you don't have any other Sony products? I have a Sony Mavica digital camera, but I refuse to buy an adapter and memory stick when I can just use more floppies. PPC's are just too much.

    Back to our regularly scheduled mental ramble:

    The Palm OS upgrade thing is no problem for me. I don't need the latest and greatest for me to keep motoring along (heck, I still use Windows 95). I don't know if I'm like most of you (I have a 8mb & a B.U. mod.) or if I'm more like the rest of the new users. I'm happy to continue with Handspring and the Palm OS for the time being. The only other modules that interest me currently are the SoundsGood and the new Eyemodule.

    Michael
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  14. dms3's Avatar
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    #94  
    Originally posted by Critic
    Well, that's just great. If what you're saying is true, Palm just provided HS with the means to make ANY memory format (CF, SmartMedia, MMC, SD) work as true flash memory - but the only way Handspring can give us that functionality is to reverse-engineer a patch for OS3.5 (since presumably none of the current Visor models have flash ROM, and are therefore incapable of loading OS4.) (Is that what you're saying?)
    Originally posted by bradhaak
    UMM, well, you see, uh, that's pretty much what it means. Hopefully the next HandSpring (Edge Color please), will have OS4, but a RAM upgrade is about the only hope for current users. Having the OS on flash is a good thing.
    Bradhaak, thanks for your insights into the external storage issue. Are you saying that the new APIs for external storage are impossible to implement as an installable patch to OS 3.5? If so, why?
  15. #95  
    dms3 asked:
    Bradhaak, thanks for your insights into the external storage issue. Are you saying that the new APIs for external storage are impossible to implement as an installable patch to OS 3.5? If so, why?
    No, it isn't impossible. It is merely very difficult.

    I suspect that any new function calls would not be that difficult to implement. The only functionality that would need to be duplicated are all of the APIs for opening, closing, reading, and writing databases. Additionally, HandSpring or whoever was doing the work would have to flesh out the code to make the new code work with whatever forms of external storage that needed to be supported. At this point you would have something that should work fairly well.

    The problem is that no (or at least very little) software will ever support it. This is because most software decides what capabilities are present by looking at the version number of the OS. If programs don't see that they are running in Palm OS v4.0 or higher, they probably won't even check to see if the patched capabilities are present. If you change the OS version, you have to put in all of the additions, subtractions and enhancements for the new OS version. Otherwise, you are going to break software that checks the OS version and expects other features to be present. By this time, you have a new OS not a patch. This is the same argument against patching the graphics in 3.1 to provide the 16 gray scale mode.

    So I guess that the answer to your question is that yes, you can do it, but it might not solve anything.
  16. #96  
    Sorry if I am a little slow to the game, but I can't seem to get a solid answer on MMCs. The Palm m500 series has that SD/MMC slot. On the Palm site they sell a 16MB Flash expansion card, kind of like the one for Handspring. Why would I spend $50 bucks on that when I can buy an 64 MMC card for a little bit more?

    My real question is. . .can the m500 series MMC/SD expansion slot access memory cards like flash memory? Can I run a program directly off the memory w/o worrying about how much main memory I have? My understanding now is that Handspring is the only who has this capability through their flash modules.

    Don't shoot me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand TRG has a program that transparently copies a program from a CF card into the main memory for use, and then deletes it when your done - thus requiring X amount of space on your main mem. Sony does a similar thing, but only not transparent. In the end, only Handspring doesn't require you to have adequate space for the copying of programs into the main memory just to be run. Can anyone help me on this?

    Lastly, from what I've read from handheld computing weekly, PalmOS 4 allows this direct flash card access. Who knows the real truth?
  17. #97  
    Originally posted by Wahoo
    Sorry if I am a little slow to the game, but I can't seem to get a solid answer on MMCs. The Palm m500 series has that SD/MMC slot. On the Palm site they sell a 16MB Flash expansion card, kind of like the one for Handspring. Why would I spend $50 bucks on that when I can buy an 64 MMC card for a little bit more?

    My real question is. . .can the m500 series MMC/SD expansion slot access memory cards like flash memory? Can I run a program directly off the memory w/o worrying about how much main memory I have? My understanding now is that Handspring is the only who has this capability through their flash modules.

    Don't shoot me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand TRG has a program that transparently copies a program from a CF card into the main memory for use, and then deletes it when your done - thus requiring X amount of space on your main mem. Sony does a similar thing, but only not transparent. In the end, only Handspring doesn't require you to have adequate space for the copying of programs into the main memory just to be run. Can anyone help me on this?

    Lastly, from what I've read from handheld computing weekly, PalmOS 4 allows this direct flash card access. Who knows the real truth?
    As I understnad it, MMC cards are compatiable with the SD slot, and the only difference is that the SD cards are much thicker (relitive) than the MMC cards. So in answering your question, there is nothing that is keeping you from using your 64 or 128 meg MMC card in the m500, however it might not work like this.

    As I understand it, you still can't execute applications from the flash card. And I know you can't do that on the TRGpro, what happens is that as you tap on a program that is in the flash card, the palm will move that application to system ram and run the program. When you leve the program it up dates the datbase and send it back to the flash card.
    Sam Kleinman

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  18. Rob
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    #98  
    Originally posted by Wahoo
    Sorry if I am a little slow to the game, but I can't seem to get a solid answer on MMCs. The Palm m500 series has that SD/MMC slot. On the Palm site they sell a 16MB Flash expansion card, kind of like the one for Handspring. Why would I spend $50 bucks on that when I can buy an 64 MMC card for a little bit more?

    My real question is. . .can the m500 series MMC/SD expansion slot access memory cards like flash memory? Can I run a program directly off the memory w/o worrying about how much main memory I have? My understanding now is that Handspring is the only who has this capability through their flash modules.
    The only thing I've seen that might possibly justify the higher cost of SD is that is supposedly faster than MMC. Other than that, there's no benefit I know of to consumers (of course, there's a benefit to content providers who want to use the copy-protection/encryption features...)

    As to running programs directly off of the card, I think PalmOS4 has the ability to automatically copy apps and databases from the card into main memory to run, then put them back after (like TrgPRO's AutoCF). There are also special APIs that allow developers to add direct support for expansion memory into their apps. Programs who are modified to use these APIs can read and/or write directly to/from the card without requiring it to be moved into main memory. My understanding is that PeanutReader (now called PalmReader) already has this support, so you should be able to read your PeanutReader books right off the card without having to make sure you have enough free space on your palm (great for those 'best of' sci-fi collections that are around 2MB!)
  19. #99  
    i'm switching to the kyocera 6035 smartphone as soon as is practical. i've been waiting for the airprime cdma visorphone for a looong time now, and then along comes the extremely solid tri band cdma/analog kyocera with 8mb, faily sleek design and extremely positive reports from users. great web access, etc etc. the only thing it can't do that my vdx can is the backup module, which now that i know the ins and outs of backbuddy, i dont' care so much about. all in one nice unit..no more screwing with modules, etc. i've tried out the smaller screen in compusa for text, games, etc and it isn't as big a deal as i thought it would be. get used to it pretty quickly, which is what other users have told me also. and the new samsung sounds like the color screen is lame and i don't like not having a physical phone dial pad.

    what are everyone else's opinions on this choice? are there any drawbacks that come to mind for you guys? i'd like to hear them, to compare them to my own and make sure i haven't overlooked something.

    but from here, it looks pretty damn nice.

    corb

    ps, i don't use mp3s or gps on my visor, nor enough memory for the encyclopedia britannica, etc, so those issues aren't important to me, tho i understand they are to others. just want a solid phone/wireless data/personal info organizer.
    Last edited by corb; 04/26/2001 at 05:17 PM.
    i CAN spell, i just don't have time...
  20. Rob
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    #100  
    Originally posted by corb
    i'm switching to the kyocera 6035 smartphone as soon as is practical.
    [snip]
    what are everyone else's opinions on this choice? are there any drawbacks that come to mind for you guys? i'd like to hear them, to compare them to my own and make sure i haven't overlooked something.
    I spent 20 minutes playing with one and talking to the Verizon sales rep and I think it's a really slick phone/pda combo. If you don't mind the slightly smaller screen (and the fact that it's not color), I think this phone has a lot going for it: jog dial, integrated modem, speakerphone, vibrating alarm, etc. all in a package that's much less bulky than I expected. I would definitely recommend it for those who don't have a Palm or a phone and want both, although it may be too expensive for those who already have a palm and/or a phone.
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