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  1. #241  
    There maybe some good firmware updates coming seeing since they fired(or did they resign) some of the exec who were doing some of the restricting.
  2. #242  
    I think they should get get rid of the idea to restrict Plays For Sure. Still the dumbest move ever for a MSFT product to exclude one of it's OWN features! They could have snatched back some market share from SanDisk had they kept this.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  3. #243  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    I'm sure its just about copying Apple. You know, one device, one store, one lock-in. MS probably said it works for Apple, why not them.
    Sure, but Apple didn't change horses in mid-stream. Imagine if they said tomorrow that none of you iTunes purchases would work on the iPhone or any future iPod! I guess it's a different when it affects fewer users - doesn't make it any better if are one of those users though (I'm not, btw. From personal use perspective, my view is that all current DRM is the work of the devil. I'd only think of buying DRMed music only when it was written blood that there's a single standard that will forever be compatible with all future devices made by every manufacturer. Even then I'd still probably buy the CD ).
  4. #244  
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodycape77 View Post
    There maybe some good firmware updates coming seeing since they fired(or did they resign) some of the exec who were doing some of the restricting.
    I guess if the Zune DRM really is PlaysForSure with a couple of bits added that would be at least technically possible. It would be quite a climb down though (not that that should stop them doing the right thing)
  5. #245  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    I think they should get get rid of the idea to restrict Plays For Sure. Still the dumbest move ever for a MSFT product to exclude one of it's OWN features! They could have snatched back some market share from SanDisk had they kept this.
    Agreed, but back to this new rumour about a Zune phone for holidays 2007. Do you think there might be a precedent here? Not frightened of having two DRM standards so not frightened of having two phone standards (Zune and WM) too? I know WM is really two standards at the moment (PPC and Smartphone) but, IIRC, they're due to merge in a year or so in Photon. Space for a second then? I wonder what the impact would be on WM device sales and WM development? I guess it probably depends on how smart a phone the (rumoured) Zune phone is, but if you were Microsoft and you had one platform where you just sold the OS and some software and another where sold everything including the hardware... well, you can see the temptation at least to favour the latter. Would they really compete with themselves? You might argue that they'd make them very different devices - WM as is (perhaps a bit less entertainment oriented) and Zune phone as the entertainment device, but if unseating the iPhone is the aim, wouldn't the Zune phone have to be at least that smart?
  6. #246  
    The IPhone is really too smart for a music phone. It has a huge fragile screen, its pretty large itself (if thin), it will have less battery life than it would have had if it had a more phone-like design. Imagine slipping the IPhone into your jeans pocket - not. Its not really a natural successor to an Ipod. A Zune phone would be a better competitor if it had a smaller screen, was robust, with long battery life and a modicum of style. Those Walkman phones arnt far of from what is ideal.

    Surur
  7. #247  
    So you think a Zune phone would have a smaller screen than the current Zune and just be a non-smart music phone? It seems to me that's a pretty competitive space and there's a fair argument that it's not where the market's going. Look at the Nokia N73, N95, SE W950i - all are music phones but undoubtedly smartphones too. I'd hazard a guess that just maybe Microsoft might have learned a 'skating where the puck's been' lesson from the first Zune and might have bash at something more ambitious. You might be right about the iPhone - it could fall between the smartphone and iPod stools, appealing little to current users of either. Just maybe though it could define a new category of popular convergence device - one that's good at being a phone, music player, video player and internet-connected device. Those lower-end Walkman phones are really only good at two of those. I'd like to see Microsoft have a go at the same space - much more interesting than just another music phone, IMHO. OTOH, skating where the puck's been has more or less got Microsoft where it is today and, if history is any predictor, they'll probably just see how the iPhone does and then try to move in on the market if it's a success. A simple music phone in the interim? C'mon Microsoft, show some vision here!
  8. #248  
    If its really about the music then the important thing should not be the ancillary functions, but the music store/ management software on the desktop, and how well the client works on it. Thats why they went for a dedicated player and software.

    A (successful) music store and integration is whats lacking with all the other players and Walkman phones.

    I expect they will continue to leverage their market place and service, and sell to people who want to listen to music, not browse the web.

    Surur
  9. #249  
    You think they'll go for a small screen device and drop video too then? Seems to me the only compelling win the current Zune has over the (current) iPods is the bigger screen for video. Would they drop that? And if they don't, seems to me a heck of a shame that they wouldn't throw in a web browser and email since they'd already have a large screen, phone, at least some form of text input, and (probably) Wifi too.

    If you're right and they go for the non-smart music phone with Zune Marketplace as the only thing to differentiate it from the plethora of music phones available now, I'd say it would be a really tough sell. They'd be operating pretty near the bottom of the market and have to hammer the 'fill up your phone for $XX a month' line pretty hard (and I've real doubts that would go down well with the kids who don't/won't/can't even pay monthly for phone calls) and they'd have to compete with entrenched high-volume music phone makers like Nokia and SE to boot.

    As a strategy another dumb music phone would also just be *so* dull but, OTOH, another smartphone OS would be really quite exciting. I accept though that Microsoft probably don't have entertaining me with new OSs as there number one priority
  10. #250  
    The IPhone is actually quite a (relative) departure for apple, as the Ipod is far from feature packed as a music or even video player. There are many more advanced devices around. Ipod trade on branding, styling and accessory market, and the name recognition itself sells the players. The Zune is spending a lot of money on the name recognition, is getting the accessories in the stores, and can start capitalizing on this. To offer an alternative to the Ipod dominance you cant just make a better player, you have to replicate the whole ecosystem. However once you have that going on for you, the players filling those niches will sell themselves. Its one of those positive feedback loop things.

    Most people dont want smartphones, and I suspect quite a portion are going to be intimidated by even the IPhone. A simpler device, that still preserves the accessories market and easy to use music store may be just what they are looking for. e.g.



    Not to mention a Zune phone/Walkman knock-off will be hundreds cheaper than an IPhone, which counts for something by itself.

    Surur
  11. #251  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    The IPhone is actually quite a (relative) departure for apple, as the Ipod is far from feature packed as a music or even video player. There are many more advanced devices around.
    More advanced in the sense that they have more features. But better? I certainly couldn't find anything that I judged as 'better' than an 8GB nano when I was looking recently. I've posted before on the comparison between the nano and Sansa E series so I won't go into the details again, but suffice it to say that Sandisk seem to have thrown in a bunch of features I didn't want at the expense of size and weight. I wanted a small, high capacity music player and that's what the nano delivers. Less features but 'better' in my view.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Ipod trade on branding, styling and accessory market, and the name recognition itself sells the players.
    Yes, but not just that. I'd argue that they're also good devices. Not feature-rich but offering the functions that most people want most of the time and making the whole experience from ripping CDs and buying music to using the players a very simple experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    The Zune is spending a lot of money on the name recognition, is getting the accessories in the stores, and can start capitalizing on this.
    Possibly, but you have to offer a compelling player and the Zune has had very mixed reviews. There were stories last week of Zunes in the remainder bins!

    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    To offer an alternative to the Ipod dominance you cant just make a better player,
    In my view they're certainly not with the current, oversized, rather clunky device.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    you have to replicate the whole ecosystem. However once you have that going on for you, the players filling those niches will sell themselves. Its one of those positive feedback loop things.
    Possibly - if the hardware and the ecosystem are done well and if you can get some traction in a crowded market with lots of familiar brands made by companies with lots of experience in making the devices and with strong carrier relationships. Those are big 'ifs'.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Most people dont want smartphones, and I suspect quite a portion are going to be intimidated by even the IPhone.
    Agreed that the majority don't want smartphones, at least judged by current sales, but a substantial minority do and smartphones are a growth segment.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Not to mention a Zune phone/Walkman knock-off will be hundreds cheaper than an IPhone, which counts for something by itself.
    In the picture you paint the iPhone wouldn't really be the competition. The competition would be other low-end, small-screen, non-smart music phones. You might be right that Microsoft could sell on the basis of strong, simple music store integration. It's impossible to say at this time, and ultimately we'd not know until they tried. I do contend though that there would be enormous hurdles. I'd really like to see them play in the (much less crowded) space that the iPhone is aiming for. Do you really think Microsoft will aim for the low end?
  12. #252  
    Quote Originally Posted by marcol View Post
    More advanced in the sense that they have more features. But better? I certainly couldn't find anything that I judged as 'better' than an 8GB nano when I was looking recently. I've posted before on the comparison between the nano and Sansa E series so I won't go into the details again, but suffice it to say that Sandisk seem to have thrown in a bunch of features I didn't want at the expense of size and weight. I wanted a small, high capacity music player and that's what the nano delivers. Less features but 'better' in my view.
    Lets just say look at the new 8gig iRiver Clix 2. It has a lot of nice features and is sized pretty nicely.

    I think if any of these companies want to do well against the iPod, they not only need to replicated the ipod eco-system and mentioned but I think they need to have good advertising.
  13. #253  
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodycape77 View Post
    Lets just say look at the new 8gig iRiver Clix 2. It has a lot of nice features and is sized pretty nicely.
    As far as I can tell there isn't an 8GB version:

    http://www.iriveramerica.com/prod/ultra/clix/index.aspx

    but the 4GB device exemplifies my point perfectly. The iRiver has video and an FM radio but, compared to the nano, is twice as big (2.916 cu. in. vs 1.456 cu. in.) and getting on for twice as heavy (2.50 oz vs 1.41 oz).

    I can see that the iRiver could be good if you wanted the extra features, but I've no desire at all to watch video on a 2.2" screen and little interest in FM radio. I want a player so that I can listen to my favourite music (and other audio) while I walk to work and while I workout in the gym. The nano fits this usage pattern perfectly, so from my point of view it's a better device - mostly because it's smaller and lighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodycape77 View Post
    I think if any of these companies want to do well against the iPod, they not only need to replicated the ipod eco-system and mentioned but I think they need to have good advertising.
    I agree completely, but I also think that it's too easy in these discussions to ignore the devices themselves. It's not just that iPods come with good end-to-end software, lots of accessories are available, they're fashionable and heavily advertised etc, it's that they're also compelling bits of hardware. The competition's approach seems to have been put in more features, but I'd argue that those features aren't ones that would be used by most people most of the time. As I think I said when talking about the Sansa E280, if they really wanted to differentiate the product and didn't mind increasing the size, they'd have been better off increasing the amount flash than putting in a radio and video support.

    Anyway, from a practical point of view this discussion isn't so relevant for me now as I just bought the 8GB nano
  14. #254  
    Here's something interesting. People are selling their Zunes for cheap on Craig's List in the US. I wonder why. I know the Zune software is a nightmare, I wonder if that's the main reason. The Zune is also quite big. I saw a guy with one in a case, and it's such a brick.

    P.S. I LOVE FM radio on a player because suppose you want something different other than your music once in a while?
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  15. #255  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    Here's something interesting. People are selling their Zunes for cheap on Craig's List in the US. I wonder why. I know the Zune software is a nightmare, I wonder if that's the main reason. The Zune is also quite big. I saw a guy with one in a case, and it's such a brick.
    I don't know the reason of course but I agree it's way too big for a 30GB player. Hopefully design will pick up now that Allard has taken over.

    http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070201-8754.html

    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    P.S. I LOVE FM radio on a player because suppose you want something different other than your music once in a while?
    (UK) FM isn't for me (better station choices in the US?), but DAB (the digital radio technology we have in the UK), that would have me looking. Unfortunately, personal DAB radios are pretty big and thirsty beasts at the moment.
  16. #256  
    All the popular stations are on stereo FM over here. AM has some talk radio and a few stations where only old school loyal fans still listen, that last time I tried to listen.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  17. #257  
    I use to listen to Fm radio alot back in LA and was doing that here for a while too since that show was being played here(SD) but since that show was taken off the air in SD. I rather now have wifi radio, or DMBTV. Well the 8gig Clix2 will come out a little latter in the rest of the world but it should be out this week or next in Korea and Japan. I would like to get a zune for its features, and all the hacking possibilities that can be on it once they break the MS codes. But I alread have an mp3 with an hd and would like to get a flash player like the Samsung K3 or iRiver clix2 but 8gig is not enough as I need at least 10gigs.
  18. #258  
    HELP!! Need someone to talk me out of it! Thinking of testing a Zune due to video and AAC. The thing is huge though!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  19. #259  
    Testing is good! Please let us know what you think if you go that route.

    If you like it, one downside to buying might be the timing. New Zune, new video iPod soon?
  20. #260  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    HELP!! Need someone to talk me out of it! Thinking of testing a Zune due to video and AAC. The thing is huge though!
    Oh wow You do not know how much I really want to test the zune for its wifi and the Toshiba Gigabeat S for its contorls and looks. Hell I had a crazy idea trying to get the zune hardware into the Toshiba body because I like the looks of the Toshiba more but the specs and battery life of the Zune more.

    Now just think to your self CeBit is this month so there maybe a new Creative hd player that might impress you. Just wait patiently. Or maybe wait because a phone that you really want might come out?

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