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  1.    #1  


    This slide by Palm from a recent Analyst Day is the source of the Sagio claim that Palm has an smartphone market share only a 1/3 less than Nokia, at 11% vs 17%. This is odd, because according to Canalys Palm shipped about 558 000 smartphones, vs 7,130 120 Nokia smartphones. It turns out, from the disclaimer at the bottom of the slide, that this excludes all series 60 Symbian smartphones, such as The Nokia E61.


    http://europe.nokia.com/nokia/0,6771,81719,00.html

    Now this phone is arguably more advanced than the Treo 650, with a 320 x 240 screen, 75MB memory, WIFI, bluetooth, multi-tasking OS, 3G, works with blackberry, goodlink, seven , POP, IMAP with idle, Microsoft Activesync, etc, Office document viewers etc etc.

    Now its all fine and good to make yourself look good by excluding most of your competitors products, but is this fair? Are the 6.5 million series 60 phones so easily discounted?

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 11/30/2005 at 12:54 PM.
  2. santas's Avatar
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    #2  
    Without either a touchscreen or a keyboard, the series 60 might be smart, but it's not really in the league of palm or windows, or even blackberry.

    Now with the keyboard, I think you're right. I'd not be so quick to exclude them.
    Less than 400 posts to get my own little treo icon!
  3. #3  
    I've always thought most of them were.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  4. #4  
    I thought Series 60 phones were "feature phones".
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by santa
    Without either a touchscreen or a keyboard, the series 60 might be smart, but it's not really in the league of palm or windows, or even blackberry.

    Now with the keyboard, I think you're right. I'd not be so quick to exclude them.
    Even without a keyboard, the Audiovox SMT 5600 and the MPX 220 are considered smartphones. The software is WM for Smartphones.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  6.    #6  
    A touchscreen obviously adds a lot to the input options, but I see many Treo users claim they do not touch the screen in weeks, so obviously with well designed software its not essential, and if you do not have a touch screen you better get stylus free usage right.

    That E61 has wifi, bluetooth, 3G, IMAP with Idle and can use most Series 60 software, including Opera. What else is there to ask for?

    Surur
  7. iramike's Avatar
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    #7  
    I would think that s60 phones are smartphones, just a different version of smartphones. Palm and Windows, are just like Mac and Windows in the PC world, and s60 is the Linux/Unix of the cell phone world. Some people would like to tell you that Linux is not really an OS but it is a valid and very popular OS. Just look at all the things that s60 is capable of, just as an example, when I had my Nokia 6620 I was able to run a SNES emulator on it at full speed, ran great I loved it, and of course the awesome Opera web browser on the s60, where is that software for the Treo 650? We know that the Treo has the power and the speed but there isn't much in the way of software for that. Just like the Mac. I am not even going to compare WM to s60, Thats a huge post and I am sure I would start some crazy flame war. I just think that the s60 can be considered a true smart phone
  8. DHart's Avatar
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    #8  
    Does anyone know who will offer the E60 in the US? And a projected cost?
  9.    #9  
    Its GSM and quadband, so you could always just import it from Expansys etc.

    So the consensus is that these are real smartphones. Is palm right in dismissing them then?

    Surur
  10. #10  
    Well, you know where I stand on this issue (from the other thread where we've been discussing this). I definitely think that S60 phones are true smartphones, QWERTY keyboard or not, though the QWERTY-models are the ones that interest me most. It's worth noting that even without a built-in QWERTY keyboard, you could do serious text entry via a Bluetooth foldable full-size QWERTY keyboard, as S60 drivers have been available for some time.

    For those unaware, the S60 platform is open to developers, just like the Palm OS, so there's a large freeware/shareware library. The standard screen resolution of S60 phones is 176x208, but fairly recently support of 320x240 and a pixel-doubled version of the original (352x416) was added.

    Read more about S60 here: http://www.s60.com

    There are some very mature web browsers available (including Opera with AJAX support either here now or coming soon) and the standard web browser with new phones seems to be based on Safari. IOW, there seems to be more advancements made on S60 web browsers than there has been for Palm OS web browsers.

    As for email, there's one email app that looks quite mature and feature-rich and supports fetching email (pull) at regular intervals, which is all I do with my Treo 650 anyway.

    S60 is a true multitasking OS and from what little I've played with it, it seems to have better usability than WM5 for phones (based on my experience with the PPC-6700), though I can't comment on WM for Smartphones (which, like S60, lacks a touchscreen).

    The S60 OS seems to be lightweight like the Palm OS, rather than the much fatter WM5. As such, S60 phones haven't needed to have a lot of horsepower. Unfortunately, this also means that media-rich applications probably don't perform as well on older S60 phones (the newer models are being touted for their multimedia capabilities, so that's changing too). Again, though, I don't have any significant first-hand experience with S60 phones, so it's possible that even older S60 phones were able to pump decent quality video to their 176x208 displays (video players have been available for a while).

    Getting back to Palm's presentation...I'm going to give Colligan/Palm the benefit of the doubt and assume that they were intentionally spinning the numbers to their advantage to impress their audience who were likely typical of the American public in terms of their knowledge (or rather, lack of) in regards to S60's capabilities. Nokia has neglected the US market by not introducing any CDMA S60 phones (though it's possible that Verizon and Sprint just haven't been interested), and until they remedy that, they'll allow Palm (or WM5) to dominate in the US. They're delay in getting a thumbboard-equipped S60 phone out has also allowed the Treo to gain ground, but as surur showed above, that's being remedied now. BTW, that phone (and other new Nokia S60 phones) aren't out yet - they're due sometime Q1 2006.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  11. #11  
    One thing to pay special attention to if you go digging through Nokia's site to see which phones might be released in the US is that not all of them support the 850 band. Without 850, you'd only be able to use it on T-Mobile as Cingular is 850 (and even if you can still use a 1900 band phone on Cingular now, you probably won't be able to for too much longer).
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  12. #12  
    FWIW, I personally am interested most in the Nokia E70 which has a standard phone keypad which flips out to reveal a large QWERTY keyboard. The display resolution is 352x416.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  13. iramike's Avatar
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    #13  
    I might be very tempted to drop my HP 6515 for a s60 with a keyboard. I need the built in keyboard, and I want to be able to use Palm Reader, as long as I can do that, those are the primary things. Big bonuses are Opera and the customizable nature of the s60 OS!
  14. #14  
    surur, what I find interesting is that the slide specifically states that they've excluded *S60* phones. So does that mean that they're *including* Nokia's far more limited Series 40 feature-phones which aren't really comparable to a Treo, IMO? Or, are they only including the 9300/9500/Communicator line of Nokia phones (called Series 80 or 90 - I forget which)?
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  15.    #15  
    Scott, the screen looks a bit small on the Nokia E70 for me. Palm obviously included in the numbers what would make them look best. I'm sure they only included the Communicator series.

    Iramike, EReader for Symbian is of course available.
    http://www.ereader.com/product/detail/18842

    Surur
  16. #16  
    Obvious attempt by Palm to "cook" their market share numbers.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    It turns out, from the disclaimer at the bottom of the slide, that this excludes all series 60 Symbian smartphones, such as The Nokia E61.
    ...
    Now this phone is arguably more advanced than the Treo 650, with a 320 x 240 screen, 75MB memory, WIFI, bluetooth, multi-tasking OS, 3G, works with blackberry, goodlink, seven , POP, IMAP with idle, Microsoft Activesync, etc, Office document viewers etc etc.

    Now its all fine and good to make yourself look good by excluding most of your competitors products, but is this fair? Are the 6.5 million series 60 phones so easily discounted?

    Surur
    Are you deliberately trying to be misleading??

    As Scott said, the Nokia E61 is a new phone. The E61 isn't excluded from the numbers in the chart because it's not in the numbers at all. The chart shows 2Q05 figures. E61 sales in 2Q05 were ZERO.

    And most of the 6.5 million series 60 phones don't have a keyboard, 75MB memory, and WiFi. Why are you describing a phone that is irrelevant to the chart? Why would you not actually describe what the excluded phones do have? Here's the Nokia 3650 which you implied in another thread as an example of a Series 60 phone that can do anything a Treo can do:

    Palm, RIM, and HP are going after a specific market. People who buy the fruity Nokia 3650 are not interested in Treos, Blackberries, or iPaqs; and Palm, RIM, and HP won't waste a dime marketing to them. It's silly to insist that they be included in their market share figures.

    If they exclude the Nokia E61 after it goes on sale, then I'd say they're "cooking the numbers." But so far, the case you've made is weak.
  18.    #18  
    Not a single Imate Jam has a "keyboard, 75MB memory, and WIFI", yet they are smartphones. Why should the form factor make such a difference to where we classify the device. Thats Gartner-like talk. I chose the E61 because it so clearly illustrates that a Series 60 device, recast in the Treo form factor, is as credible a smartphone as any other. Its demonstrates form factor discrimination very clearly.

    Regarding the 3650, I said it could do POP and IMAP, which some-one else implied would be needed to qualify them as smartphones. And they could. If Palm makes a Lowrider without a keyboard, will it suddenly not be a smartphone?

    Surur
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Is palm right in dismissing them then?

    Surur

    Of course not!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Not a single Imate Jam has a "keyboard, 75MB memory, and WIFI", yet they are smartphones.
    Why are you still not talking about any of the phones that have been excluded? Are any of them like the Imate Jam? I don't know, and you haven't said so.

    And actually, don't even bother. I don't think I want to spend a whole lot more time on this topic...

    Why should the form factor make such a difference to where we classify the device. Thats Gartner-like talk.
    I think the important question is, Do they compete? Are there customers who are trying to decide between a Nokia 3650 and a Treo 650? I really doubt that there are a significant number of them.

    I chose the E61 because it so clearly illustrates that a Series 60 device, recast in the Treo form factor, is as credible a smartphone as any other. Its demonstrates form factor discrimination very clearly.
    When the E61 goes on sale, it should be placed in the same category as Treos and Blackberries. But so far the E61 hasn't been discriminated against. No one has excluded E61 sales figures from any report or chart.


    If Palm makes a Lowrider without a keyboard, will it suddenly not be a smartphone?
    You're placing so much importance in the definition of a term that's used in multiple ways by different people for different purposes. For the purpose of defining the market segment that Treos and Blackberries play in, you can safely exclude the Nokia 3650. Stop getting so upset if they use the label "smartphone" because they probably will.

    I don't know if the Lowrider will be in that same market or not. I don't know what the specs of the Lowrider are, or who they'd be targeting. If they go after teens and housewives and its ability to handle email is on par with the Nokia 3650, perhaps it should be excluded from the Treo/Blackberry segment. However, Palm execs believe in the importance of email, so I doubt they'll drop the keyboard.
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