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Time to move on?
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Old 08/04/2013, 04:28 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Maybe it's time to move on, we could take the good things from openwebos and merry them with nemo or mer. Or are they other advantages in openwebos wich you couldn't achiev with mer/nemo?

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Old 08/04/2013, 06:33 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Maybe it's time to move on, we could take the good things from openwebos and merry them with nemo or mer. Or are they other advantages in openwebos wich you couldn't achiev with mer/nemo?

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Open webOS is missing the advantages of legacy/proprietary webOS... A lot of stuff is missing and is being built as we speak. If you feel it is time to move on, it's your choice... You are always welcome back once the missing pieces have been built and Open webOS is able to run on "off the shelf" Android devices...
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Old 08/05/2013, 01:22 AM   #3 (permalink)
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There's nothing dishonorable about moving on to another OS while holding out hope that the one you really like becomes a reasonable choice again.

The problem with choosing webOS as the OS to hold out hope for, however, is that not only does it have to catch up to two years of not only software but hardware progression by rival mobile OSes and device manufacturers, the people driving the train have chosen televisions as their priority. Televisions aren't typically mobile, so...I'm not counting them as mobile devices. And the few rogue folks that have chosen to keep progressing OWOS for mobile devices have essentially been living in radio silence for a while now with little progression--nor anything proprietary that LG's internal version of webOS will account for--to show for it when they do happen to surface for air. Not to take anything away from them, but there's only so far you can go with what they've got available to them without throwing up one's hands and saying, "Welp, I might as well just do Android development at this point."

Meanwhile, the rest of the world keeps happily getting the new tech to play with while those hanging onto the hopes for OWOS keep pinning their hope on just getting drivers that enable graphics acceleration so their (still) app-less OWOS experience won't look like a slow-motion train wreck while clutching their legacy webOS 2.x/3.x devices betting they don't disintegrate until they can win the eBay auctions they pinned for replacement parts and devices. And even if it happens, who's going to help build and/or port the applications people want, and who's going to create the robust entertainment and productivity ecosystems average everyday mobile users--and webOS users aren't "average everyday users"--now require?

Insert cricket orchestra here.

Remy X, I strongly doubt that OWOS will ever be robust enough to run on any off-the-shelf Android device due to major architectural differences in product lines (from top-tiers down to bottom-rungs), so you're looking at a fairly tight architectural window of devices it'll ever run on unless it has a significantly larger amount of developer support going forward--CyanogenMod level, I'm talking--which I also very strongly doubt it will ever get at this point. Just gauging how many popular devices in the Android sphere have locked bootloaders alone, you've slashed your potential audience by 70-80% right off the bat; the rest are simply either really tech savvy or own Nexus devices. Now figure of that 20-30% those that give a damn about an alternative OS with almost no developers support or apps, and questionable or non-existent roadmaps. Congratulations, you've now excluded 99% of potential interest in the platform. This is why I've long thought that adopting another OS' hardware has been a fool's game when the numbers (and experience necessary) of developers required to play that game on even a basic level just simply don't add up. They simply do not exist.

If people here want to keep buying Galaxy Nexus devices for the next few years to support the "most advanced version" of OWOS so far that's great, but several dozen people doesn't exactly advance a platform against competition measured in the hundreds of millions.

And don't even get me started on how misguided the whole PIC/OM/ACL thing is, because it's its own level of "What the hell are you thinking?" in my opinion, with PIC licensing and releasing an alpha product from a half-baked vendor that makes empty promises (OM) aimed at an ancient Android version (2.3) that's losing developer and end-user support more rapidly every single day and calling it an application lifeline for the webOS platform. By the way, you can have this product that still runs like it's on a maddeningly-slow first-gen Android 2.3 device for the low, low price of $30 USD. But that'd be another topic entirely...except it isn't intended to run on OWOS. The pain, it hurts and you'll damned well feel it or suffer PTSD from the cognitive dissonance you'll end up deluding yourself into when believing it's a quality product from a stand-up manufacturer of fine products. It's outright masochism on the part of the people who bought into this. I digress.

The bottom line is, the more time ticks away with little progress or mindshare to show for it, the more the odds logarithmically decrease for the success of OWOS; consider that most people from back in December 2011 who backed it fully when it was announced have already given up and long moved on already into new homes.

This is, to be completely frank, an OS that's been comatose for two years with an errant brainwave here and there showing up on-screen to excite people unnecessarily, and all that's left are people debating whether there's a chance of it ever waking up (along with random huge assumptions and talking down to other OSes while ironically and indirectly supporting Android) without asking the most important questions: What happens if OWOS wakes up a vegetable? What if it never wakes up at all?
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Old 08/05/2013, 02:31 AM   #4 (permalink)
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There's nothing dishonorable about moving on to another OS while holding out hope that the one you really like becomes a reasonable choice again.

The problem with choosing webOS as the OS to hold out hope for, however, is that not only does it have to catch up to two years of not only software but hardware progression by rival mobile OSes and device manufacturers, the people driving the train have chosen televisions as their priority. Televisions aren't typically mobile, so...I'm not counting them as mobile devices. And the few rogue folks that have chosen to keep progressing OWOS for mobile devices have essentially been living in radio silence for a while now with little progression--nor anything proprietary that LG's internal version of webOS will account for--to show for it when they do happen to surface for air. Not to take anything away from them, but there's only so far you can go with what they've got available to them without throwing up one's hands and saying, "Welp, I might as well just do Android development at this point."

Meanwhile, the rest of the world keeps happily getting the new tech to play with while those hanging onto the hopes for OWOS keep pinning their hope on just getting drivers that enable graphics acceleration so their (still) app-less OWOS experience won't look like a slow-motion train wreck while clutching their legacy webOS 2.x/3.x devices betting they don't disintegrate until they can win the eBay auctions they pinned for replacement parts and devices. And even if it happens, who's going to help build and/or port the applications people want, and who's going to create the robust entertainment and productivity ecosystems average everyday mobile users--and webOS users aren't "average everyday users"--now require?

Insert cricket orchestra here.

Remy X, I strongly doubt that OWOS will ever be robust enough to run on any off-the-shelf Android device due to major architectural differences in product lines (from top-tiers down to bottom-rungs), so you're looking at a fairly tight architectural window of devices it'll ever run on unless it has a significantly larger amount of developer support going forward--CyanogenMod level, I'm talking--which I also very strongly doubt it will ever get at this point. Just gauging how many popular devices in the Android sphere have locked bootloaders alone, you've slashed your potential audience by 70-80% right off the bat; the rest are simply either really tech savvy or own Nexus devices. Now figure of that 20-30% those that give a damn about an alternative OS with almost no developers support or apps, and questionable or non-existent roadmaps. Congratulations, you've now excluded 99% of potential interest in the platform. This is why I've long thought that adopting another OS' hardware has been a fool's game when the numbers (and experience necessary) of developers required to play that game on even a basic level just simply don't add up. They simply do not exist.

If people here want to keep buying Galaxy Nexus devices for the next few years to support the "most advanced version" of OWOS so far that's great, but several dozen people doesn't exactly advance a platform against competition measured in the hundreds of millions.

And don't even get me started on how misguided the whole PIC/OM/ACL thing is, because it's its own level of "What the hell are you thinking?" in my opinion, with PIC licensing and releasing an alpha product from a half-baked vendor that makes empty promises (OM) aimed at an ancient Android version (2.3) that's losing developer and end-user support more rapidly every single day and calling it an application lifeline for the webOS platform. By the way, you can have this product that still runs like it's on a maddeningly-slow first-gen Android 2.3 device for the low, low price of $30 USD. But that'd be another topic entirely...except it isn't intended to run on OWOS. The pain, it hurts and you'll damned well feel it or suffer PTSD from the cognitive dissonance you'll end up deluding yourself into when believing it's a quality product from a stand-up manufacturer of fine products. It's outright masochism on the part of the people who bought into this. I digress.

The bottom line is, the more time ticks away with little progress or mindshare to show for it, the more the odds logarithmically decrease for the success of OWOS; consider that most people from back in December 2011 who backed it fully when it was announced have already given up and long moved on already into new homes.

This is, to be completely frank, an OS that's been comatose for two years with an errant brainwave here and there showing up on-screen to excite people unnecessarily, and all that's left are people debating whether there's a chance of it ever waking up (along with random huge assumptions and talking down to other OSes while ironically and indirectly supporting Android) without asking the most important questions: What happens if OWOS wakes up a vegetable? What if it never wakes up at all?
While you make a lot of fair points, I think you underestimate the amount of work that has been done by the Ports team. Recent developments (Wayland, QT 5.0/5.1 upgrades, Node upgrade, SystemD instead of Upstart, new Luna UI in progress) for sure have made it a lot more feasible to run OWOS on any Android device that can run Cyanogenmod, because it can use the Android drivers using Wayland. Also a lot of cooperation is ongoing between Ports, Ubuntu and Mer/Sailfish project where they are sharing a lot of work across various projects.

Is it ready? By far not, but a lot of the difficult groundwork has been done in the recent months already!

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Old 08/05/2013, 03:23 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dignitary View Post
There's nothing dishonorable about moving on to another OS while holding out hope that the one you really like becomes a reasonable choice again.

The problem with choosing webOS as the OS to hold out hope for, however, is that not only does it have to catch up to two years of not only software but hardware progression by rival mobile OSes and device manufacturers, the people driving the train have chosen televisions as their priority. Televisions aren't typically mobile, so...I'm not counting them as mobile devices. And the few rogue folks that have chosen to keep progressing OWOS for mobile devices have essentially been living in radio silence for a while now with little progression--nor anything proprietary that LG's internal version of webOS will account for--to show for it when they do happen to surface for air. Not to take anything away from them, but there's only so far you can go with what they've got available to them without throwing up one's hands and saying, "Welp, I might as well just do Android development at this point."

Meanwhile, the rest of the world keeps happily getting the new tech to play with while those hanging onto the hopes for OWOS keep pinning their hope on just getting drivers that enable graphics acceleration so their (still) app-less OWOS experience won't look like a slow-motion train wreck while clutching their legacy webOS 2.x/3.x devices betting they don't disintegrate until they can win the eBay auctions they pinned for replacement parts and devices. And even if it happens, who's going to help build and/or port the applications people want, and who's going to create the robust entertainment and productivity ecosystems average everyday mobile users--and webOS users aren't "average everyday users"--now require?

Insert cricket orchestra here.
Fair, but lol..

..some of us like the form factor. I, for one, don't have very large hands, so having used a couple of those thin, ~5" phones for a few minutes, i was always glad to go back to my Pre, which doesn't feel like it's gonna slip out of my hand and break, any second. So to each their own. I don't feel there's anything dishonorable in shopping for parts phones either

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Remy X, I strongly doubt that OWOS will ever be robust enough to run on any off-the-shelf Android device due to major architectural differences in product lines (from top-tiers down to bottom-rungs), so you're looking at a fairly tight architectural window of devices it'll ever run on unless it has a significantly larger amount of developer support going forward--CyanogenMod level, I'm talking--which I also very strongly doubt it will ever get at this point. Just gauging how many popular devices in the Android sphere have locked bootloaders alone, you've slashed your potential audience by 70-80% right off the bat; the rest are simply either really tech savvy or own Nexus devices. Now figure of that 20-30% those that give a damn about an alternative OS with almost no developers support or apps, and questionable or non-existent roadmaps. Congratulations, you've now excluded 99% of potential interest in the platform. This is why I've long thought that adopting another OS' hardware has been a fool's game when the numbers (and experience necessary) of developers required to play that game on even a basic level just simply don't add up. They simply do not exist.

If people here want to keep buying Galaxy Nexus devices for the next few years to support the "most advanced version" of OWOS so far that's great, but several dozen people doesn't exactly advance a platform against competition measured in the hundreds of millions.
With all due respect, i'm not really as na´ve as you may think. You don't have to explain this to me, especially here and now... a lot of this is preaching to the choir. I already agree with you on the odds and statistics, but not so on the "fool's game" sentiment. I've had a pretty in-depth discussion of this with Herrie, and know what the challenges are, and which hardware can be considered "low handing fruit."

So yea, you could prove me wrong in the eyes of the OP, but you know, that's almost "special olympics" at this point, and will get neither of us anywhere... it's only a forum, for diehard enthusiasts no less. I don't do "holy wars" and have already formed my opinion. I respect yours. I believe in facts, but then i'm stubborn as hell and have a pretty thick skin towards what other people think of me in terms of "fashionable" or "current". If i choose to support an unpopular project and to use a phone that i *like* and not one that someone thinks i should use because it's popular, then i stand 100% behind my choice.



And besides, the OP has the same "quixotic" sort of attitude to building something webOS-like on the Mer platform. I'd say it's a waste of time, he should enjoy each platform as it's meant to be used. I have a Maemo phone (the N900) and admire the project almost as much as i do webOS, but it gets much less use than the Pre. On the Pre, i can do everything one-handed.. open/close the slider, type (on hw or sw keyboard), zoom, perform gestures on any part of the screen, even select and copy text (awkward by doable). The N900 requires two hands.

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And don't even get me started on how misguided the whole PIC/OM/ACL thing is, because it's its own level of "What the hell are you thinking?" in my opinion, with PIC licensing and releasing an alpha product from a half-baked vendor that makes empty promises (OM) aimed at an ancient Android version (2.3) that's losing developer and end-user support more rapidly every single day and calling it an application lifeline for the webOS platform. By the way, you can have this product that still runs like it's on a maddeningly-slow first-gen Android 2.3 device for the low, low price of $30 USD. But that'd be another topic entirely...except it isn't intended to run on OWOS. The pain, it hurts and you'll damned well feel it or suffer PTSD from the cognitive dissonance you'll end up deluding yourself into when believing it's a quality product from a stand-up manufacturer of fine products. It's outright masochism on the part of the people who bought into this. I digress.
Look, i've never supported it. If you go back and read, i've actually been the most vocal opponent after RumoredNow. From the beginning

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The bottom line is, the more time ticks away with little progress or mindshare to show for it, the more the odds logarithmically decrease for the success of OWOS; consider that most people from back in December 2011 who backed it fully when it was announced have already given up and long moved on already into new homes.

This is, to be completely frank, an OS that's been comatose for two years with an errant brainwave here and there showing up on-screen to excite people unnecessarily, and all that's left are people debating whether there's a chance of it ever waking up (along with random huge assumptions and talking down to other OSes while ironically and indirectly supporting Android) without asking the most important questions: What happens if OWOS wakes up a vegetable? What if it never wakes up at all?
Most people have by now decided what camp they are in. The majority have moved on, while a small fraction including myself feel that upgrading is a joke. The Android community feels that we are a joke. But many of us just don't give a damn at this point. Things will get done when they'll get done, even if we lag (tremendously) behind any well-funded corporate effort...

OwOS won't grab any more attention from anyone (businesses, hackers or anyone outside this community) until it's reasonably usable, with a low barrier of adoption. That's been obvious for a while, and then (also obvious), LG isn't as interested as HP in funding or promoting as much webOS work outside its lab. But that doesn't mean everyone ought to fold their tents, give up and leave. Too much work has been done already to just give up. If we keep going we are just "crazy", if we give up and abandon the project, we'd be "losers" with nothing to show for the time and money already spent. Speaking of money, i've just bought a Nexus 7 recently (Staples' liquidation of the last year's model, $80 off MSRP, free shipping ), for one single reason.. to do my part in building out some of the missing software on OwOS. Rewriting the graphics compositor to support the Android driver model or dealing with the OEM modem firmware quirks falls far outside my expertise, obviously, but there's still plenty of work to do when it comes to core apps, and that's what i'm looking forward to doing.


Anyway, thanks for taking the time to write, regardless of whether we see eye to eye on this subject or not. I always look forward to reading your "op-eds"
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Old 08/05/2013, 03:30 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Herrie, you beat me to it

Couldn't have said it better... #facts
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Old 08/05/2013, 11:45 AM   #7 (permalink)
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@dignitary: Well said as you so often manage and lots of reality of the grim variety. Granted, most who champion Ports or an LG development do so with a starry eyed slant. I'm guilty of it from time to time myself. That said, I'd not expect webOS of any form to shake the foundations of mobile any time soon, but I welcome any resurgence that brings it back into availability - even on non-native hardware.

My leaving Legacy behind was solely motivated by simple economics. Straight Talk and their rift with AT&T left me at the mercy of whimsical throttling of my data. Why would I pay $45/month to be slowed to a crawl data-wise half the time? I learned a valuable lesson there: pay that bargain price and get bargain service - the carrier whose towers you ride on still holds the reins and they decide what class you ride in, not the mvno... I'll probably never go mvno again. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...

Of all the majors in my area T-Mobile offered the best price on a network I can actually connect to reliably. No 1700 MHz band in Legacy, and no refarming where I'm at in the foreseeable future. To get the best price:service ratio I'm forced to run non-webOS on T-Mobile. Carrier selectability was the only failing I found with waiting. Others have similar stories around the board. Their employer cut off support of webOS - their Exchange service became too problematic.

There are many waiting to come back to webOS. True it's not a statistically relevant amount compared to iOS/Android or even WinPho/BB. But compared to Ubuntu Touch/FireFox OS/Sailfish/Tizen it's a significant portion of the fringe. There is room there among the disaffected mobile users. A place to exist comfortably with a level of development that is sustainable.

As bleak as it looks - there is nothing wrong with hope and optimism so long as they are tempered by reality. Reality on the other hand, lived without the moderating influences of optimism and hope is just grey and constraining. If no one believes, no one tries, nothing changes...
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Old 08/05/2013, 12:05 PM   #8 (permalink)
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lots of valid points on multiple posts.
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Old 08/05/2013, 12:30 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I moved on... By purchasing a second Pre2 and a second Pre3 ( prototype model from a laid off employee!)... I certainly understand that todays OS's have advanced greatly, but I noticed every time they have a little bit of our handy WebOS creativity on there newer devices and new software updates, It just reminds me how much I love the use of such a simple mobile device that I can put in my shirt pocket and not be so obtrusive.
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Old 08/05/2013, 12:34 PM   #10 (permalink)
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It have nothing to do with building something webos like! Its not like somebody taking linux and make it look like windows. Look at the progress at Ubuntu touch development, they don't try to port the whole system to a device, they port the essential things.

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Old 08/05/2013, 02:19 PM   #11 (permalink)
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It have nothing to do with building something webos like! Its not like somebody taking linux and make it look like windows. Look at the progress at Ubuntu touch development, they don't try to port the whole system to a device, they port the essential things.

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Actually, they did "port the whole thing over".

See the section on convergent computing, Ubuntu Edge | Indiegogo

So this phone (Edge, powered by Ubuntu Touch) is running ARM-compiled apps in desktop mode, with a TV screen or monitor attached and a bluetooth keyboard.

As for the phone mode of Ubuntu Touch, that UI was redesigned from scratch, a blank slate.

The Mer platform offers multitasking in much the same way as webOS, is also pleasant to use... But it'll take as much time and effort to implement webOS features on it, as fixing Open webOS to run on other hardware. Enjoy each platform as it's meant to be used
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Old 08/05/2013, 04:43 PM   #12 (permalink)
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While you make a lot of fair points, I think you underestimate the amount of work that has been done by the Ports team. Recent developments (Wayland, QT 5.0/5.1 upgrades, Node upgrade, SystemD instead of Upstart, new Luna UI in progress) for sure have made it a lot more feasible to run OWOS on any Android device that can run Cyanogenmod, because it can use the Android drivers using Wayland. Also a lot of cooperation is ongoing between Ports, Ubuntu and Mer/Sailfish project where they are sharing a lot of work across various projects.

Is it ready? By far not, but a lot of the difficult groundwork has been done in the recent months already!
THIS.

It might well be that there would be an open WebOS that can run on an android phone in time for for the webOS tvs. Then you can choose whether you want open WebOS as a remote to control your tv apps or whether you want to use android or IOS.

We still don't know how all this plays out.

For example, that recent story that says charging ports in public places can be used to put malware on android phones and the recent news article that says the govt can hijack an android phone to record calls secretly--does that drive people more to Blackberry?
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Old 08/05/2013, 06:50 PM   #13 (permalink)
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While you make a lot of fair points, I think you underestimate the amount of work that has been done by the Ports team. Recent developments (Wayland, QT 5.0/5.1 upgrades, Node upgrade, SystemD instead of Upstart, new Luna UI in progress) for sure have made it a lot more feasible to run OWOS on any Android device that can run Cyanogenmod, because it can use the Android drivers using Wayland. Also a lot of cooperation is ongoing between Ports, Ubuntu and Mer/Sailfish project where they are sharing a lot of work across various projects.

Is it ready? By far not, but a lot of the difficult groundwork has been done in the recent months already!
Can I suggest the developers in the know keep the shrinking webOS fan base updated on open webOS and porting efforts? WebOS Nation hasn't changed in weeks. LG obviously keeps its people on a tighter leash than HP (maybe good thing) and very little is being said about future efforts. Presumably we will hear in time for CES what LG has been working on. WebOS Internals and Ports hasn't listed much detail about what they're working on.
In 2 weeks I'm getting a new smartphone on verizon and there is a 99% chance it will be an android device. I won't be passionate about whatever I get but it will be a relief that I can get some active support for the device and the few apps I need. I will miss all the cool elegance of webOS UI and multitasking but will not miss the quirky instability, memory issues (love the autoerasing), random slow-downs. But I will keep my touchpad running and an eye on open WebOS because you don't forget your first love.
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Old 08/05/2013, 07:15 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Can I suggest the developers in the know keep the shrinking webOS fan base updated on open webOS and porting efforts? WebOS Nation hasn't changed in weeks. LG obviously keeps its people on a tighter leash than HP (maybe good thing) and very little is being said about future efforts. Presumably we will hear in time for CES what LG has been working on. WebOS Internals and Ports hasn't listed much detail about what they're working on.
In 2 weeks I'm getting a new smartphone on verizon and there is a 99% chance it will be an android device. I won't be passionate about whatever I get but it will be a relief that I can get some active support for the device and the few apps I need. I will miss all the cool elegance of webOS UI and multitasking but will not miss the quirky instability, memory issues (love the autoerasing), random slow-downs. But I will keep my touchpad running and an eye on open WebOS because you don't forget your first love.
Makes perfect sense.

How about we self-publish news once a week? We could take a week to write and verify everything, prepare screenshots and photos, start topics a few weeks in advance and sort of snowball from there.

Adding a tag and date to the thread title would make it clear to front page visitors that this is a recent news item. However we can't post this under "News", since images there are strictly prohibited
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Old 08/08/2013, 10:11 AM   #15 (permalink)
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personally i do like reading about progress on the subject, tho im not sure if its what the front page articles need given that even if it was finished tomorrow and had 100% gfx acceleration, flew liek the wind and was perfectly useable, we the "average user" couldnt do much with it.

I'd eagerly await news of a form of completion/landmark progress but for "us" non devs the big news moment i think would be when theres some enyo2 apps to run on it or some genius manages to shoehorn support for PDK/Enjo1/Mojo apps into it which may prove amazingly difficult.
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Old 08/08/2013, 01:52 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Well, if you wanna move on, that's your choice. But remember that if you move on the community is getting smaller and smaller. I can't force you to stay but if you really believe in webOS then it would be benificial if you could look into helping out. Programming and building apps are nice, but there's more to it, even for non-technical people.

So again: it's your choice but if you really believe in webOS, then please think twice, we could use you your help.
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Old 08/08/2013, 02:00 PM   #17 (permalink)
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There are people who run Android on Touchpads and people who want to run WebOS on Android devices.

Interesting.
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Old 08/08/2013, 02:06 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rnld View Post
There are people who run Android on Touchpads and people who want to run WebOS on Android devices.

Interesting.
that theres a device which is capable of exactly that feat is interesting, even samsung recently were the ?first? to ship devices that can dual boot winblows/android to the public without them having to risk breaking anything.

more choices is nice, does tend to attract the more geekier types tho rather than joe normal.
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Last edited by geekpeter; 08/08/2013 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 08/08/2013, 06:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I wonder how many people dual boot Intel Macs.
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Old 08/08/2013, 06:44 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rnld View Post
I wonder how many people dual boot Intel Macs.
So do i. I guess it's those who run software that doesn't perform well under Wine and don't like the lag of running Windows inside a VM.
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