webOS Nation Forums >  webOS Discussion >  Open webOS General Discussion > Instead of porting, create our own hardware.
Instead of porting, create our own hardware.
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Old 07/10/2013, 01:00 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Instead of porting open webOS to nexus devices why don't we hire a company to create a phone for us?
AAVA has created a device for the development of Meego so we could see how much it would cost for them to create one. Then we could try and raise it or maybe try to get LG to spot the bill lol.
Aava Mobile

Too crazy?
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Old 07/10/2013, 02:09 AM   #2 (permalink)
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[...]

Too crazy?
Yes.

Porting is once and forever, and we have a nearly endless supply of a huge variety of OEM-Android hardware that would become usable all at once.

Building own hardware is a dead-end road that leads nowhere fast. So rather than having endless "holy wars" over form factor and specs, dealing with the quality compromises and inevitable delays, it's much better to split up the Ports project into bite-sized chunks, where the smaller, less monolithic pieces than GPU code could be handled by different people who are proficient in those particular areas. There are kernel experts, WebKit engineers, web developers and so on, and delegating out the pieces while offering a reward for each "block" would come out cheaper than dealing with Aava.

You do what you want, but you'll be lucky if you get 800 people on board, and with such a small order, hardware prices aren't exactly competitive


The community has already invested a pretty penny in ACL and will get none of the source code. Doing the same on the hardware side is suicide.
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Old 07/11/2013, 07:22 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Inclined to agree with Remy X for all the usual reasons...

BUT this seems to be a phone SOC and they claim, fully open.

It suggests that all that is required is a case / form factor of your choice with what ever screen size and stuff. Drivers shouldn't be a problem and the all-in-one design might reduce costs.

That said, I can't imagine this would be super cheap - unless there was a massive order volume.

But it might be possible for PIC if they find some cash from somewhere. Maybe more cost effective than other options at least.

The website's a bit thin, so no sign of pricing...

Just maybe it could be an option if widespread porting indicates a possible comeback for webOS.
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Old 07/11/2013, 07:28 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Inclined to agree with Remy X for all the usual reasons...

BUT this seems to be a phone SOC and they claim, fully open.

It suggests that all that is required is a case / form factor of your choice with what ever screen size and stuff. Drivers shouldn't be a problem and the all-in-one design might reduce costs.

That said, I can't imagine this would be super cheap - unless there was a massive order volume.

But it might be possible for PIC if they find some cash from somewhere. Maybe more cost effective than other options at least.

The website's a bit thin, so no sign of pricing...

Just maybe it could be an option if widespread porting indicates a possible comeback for webOS.
i'd heard even the rasberry pi was "fully open" but wasnt (or isnt) their gfx side proprietary/closed source, or has that changed?

either way "fully open" might not actually be fully open and, that aava mobile thign does sound pretty handy but it only mentions their integrated CPU and modem and the fact it can be arm or x86 as a preference, but doesnt that leave a gfx side to be chosen somewhere and they often end up using closed source side of things.
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Old 07/11/2013, 08:18 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Inclined to agree with Remy X for all the usual reasons...

BUT this seems to be a phone SOC and they claim, fully open.

It suggests that all that is required is a case / form factor of your choice with what ever screen size and stuff. Drivers shouldn't be a problem and the all-in-one design might reduce costs.

That said, I can't imagine this would be super cheap - unless there was a massive order volume.

But it might be possible for PIC if they find some cash from somewhere. Maybe more cost effective than other options at least.

The website's a bit thin, so no sign of pricing...

Just maybe it could be an option if widespread porting indicates a possible comeback for webOS.
When the port is complete, it'll be a much better value to use the "badge engineering" approach and repackage an existing device from a reputable Chinese manufacturer like Oppo. They have already gone through the FCC certification process, and the Oppo Find5 even has a "gesture area" below the screen that is nearly black if the backlit Android navigation symbols are turned off.
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Old 07/30/2013, 09:49 PM   #6 (permalink)
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For various reasons I was thinking a tablet for the technologically challenged might be an idea but I guess that's a subject for another thread...
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Old 07/30/2013, 11:58 PM   #7 (permalink)
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According to the Ubuntu Edge crowd funding project it's $32,000,000 for a run of 40,000 units...

Ubuntu Edge | Indiegogo


...that's a very bleeding edge design so maybe we could trim off $5,000,000 or so.
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Old 08/08/2013, 07:58 AM   #8 (permalink)
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According to the Ubuntu Edge crowd funding project it's $32,000,000 for a run of 40,000 units...

Ubuntu Edge | Indiegogo


...that's a very bleeding edge design so maybe we could trim off $5,000,000 or so.
Apples to oranges.

Unless you want a webOS phone with a multi-core CPU that you could hook up to a PC... which is what Ubuntu Edge is seeking to do...

(alright, I'll admit: I want webOS hooking up on my PC but for community's sake, let's build a normal webOS phone at this point in time)
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Old 08/08/2013, 11:48 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Apples to oranges.

Unless you want a webOS phone with a multi-core CPU that you could hook up to a PC... which is what Ubuntu Edge is seeking to do...

(alright, I'll admit: I want webOS hooking up on my PC but for community's sake, let's build a normal webOS phone at this point in time)
Of $32,000,000 how much do you think is component costs for 40,000 units?

Not very much, I'd imagine. Slimming down the spec wouldn't really slim down the bottom line cost by that great a factor. Most of the cost is most likely "renting" the facility for the production run: quality control engineers, software engineers, clean room use, skilled labor, etc...

$32,000,000 / 40,000 = $800 per phone.

Even with bleeding edge tech the individual parts don't come near $800. Samsung Galaxy S4 Costs $237 to Build, Teardown Analysis Shows - Arik Hesseldahl - News - AllThingsD

Galaxy S4 cost $237 to build - materials and manufacture... Ubuntu Edge (or webOS Private Label) doesn't have vertical supply lines so that adds to the cost. 40 - 50,000 units isn't taking advantage of the economy of scale available when producing millions of a model. Increase the cost.

Even assuming that materials cost is double for such a project shows that components are a small part of the actual build expense. I'm not sure you save much on a small production run simply by reducing spec. The $5,000,000 I quipped that could be shaved off is probably way more than you could save by trimming spec without gutting capability.
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Old 08/08/2013, 12:19 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Of $32,000,000 how much do you think is component costs for 40,000 units?

Not very much, I'd imagine. Slimming down the spec wouldn't really slim down the bottom line cost by that great a factor. Most of the cost is most likely "renting" the facility for the production run, quality control engineers, software engineers, clean room use, skilled labor, etc...

$32,000,000 / 40,000 = $800 per phone.

Even with bleeding edge tech the individual parts don't come near $800. Samsung Galaxy S4 Costs $237 to Build, Teardown Analysis Shows - Arik Hesseldahl - News - AllThingsD

Galaxy S4 cost $237 to build - materials and manufacture... Ubuntu Edge (or webOS Private Label) doesn't have vertical supply lines so that adds to the cost. 40 - 50,000 units isn't taking advantage of the economy of scale available when producing millions of a model. Increase the cost.

Even assuming that materials cost is double for such a project shows that components are a small part of the actual build expense. I'm not sure you save much on a small production run simply by reducing spec. The $5,000,000 I quipped that could be shaved off is probably way more than you could save by trimming spec without gutting capability.
when i backed a kickstarter hardware project i have interest in the bloke running it all set his target at a certain figure due to the fact the part(s) he required to be factory machined would not do it to order, there had to be a minimum order/cost involved or they wouldnt entertain the idea.

maybe they are the same requiring a minimum qty of cash to their product builders before they get their product, plus its likely to be more than 1 source for multiple phone parts?

its a good idea tbh, im well in favour of a device that has the potential to do a lot of different things, esp when their badboy doubles as phone as well as desktop, all in your pocket, would be interesting using it as a phone, browser, all the usual stuff then later plugging it into a tv and playing some linux steam games on it.

i do see it as the way ahead, a 1 does many things device as opposed to the static closed in things we have available atm, touchpad still beats other devices for "doing allsorts" in both hardware and software features, still massive room for improvement tho, this project could be interesting.

shame ive blown a lot on mobile/console devices and kickstarter projects of late, need time to recover.
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Old 08/08/2013, 01:29 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Of $32,000,000 how much do you think is component costs for 40,000 units?

Not very much, I'd imagine. Slimming down the spec wouldn't really slim down the bottom line cost by that great a factor. Most of the cost is most likely "renting" the facility for the production run, quality control engineers, software engineers, clean room use, skilled labor, etc...

$32,000,000 / 40,000 = $800 per phone.
I've been quite involved with Canonical so let me correct you a bit.

-Renting a facility --> Yes.
-Quality control --> Is paid out of Canonical's normal budget because those engineers are already working at Canonical's Quality Control Department (actually a floor in building 1 of Canonical HQ). They quality control both the desktop and Touch version (including the Edge hardware).
-Software engineers --> Is paid out of Canonical's normal budget because those engineers are already working at Canonical's Software Department in building 1.
-Clean room use --> Yes, but that comes with the renting a facility part.
-Skilled labor --> Is paid out of Canonical's normal budget because that's already at Canonical in building 2.
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Old 08/08/2013, 02:36 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I've been quite involved with Canonical so let me correct you a bit.

-Renting a facility --> Yes.
-Quality control --> Is paid out of Canonical's normal budget because those engineers are already working at Canonical's Quality Control Department (actually a floor in building 1 of Canonical HQ). They quality control both the desktop and Touch version (including the Edge hardware).
-Software engineers --> Is paid out of Canonical's normal budget because those engineers are already working at Canonical's Software Department in building 1.
-Clean room use --> Yes, but that comes with the renting a facility part.
-Skilled labor --> Is paid out of Canonical's normal budget because that's already at Canonical in building 2.
So then to follow that logic train... The cost INCREASES over $32,000,000 because we lack the personnel that Canonical has access to in-house.

But you're mixing specialties. Software (Canonical) is not hardware. They are not building the Edge at Canonical HQ. The manufacture needs a dedicated mobile phone production line with in-house expert support. All the things I listed are part of that facility "rent" and I see now I had a typo...

Quote:
Most of the cost is most likely "renting" the facility for the production run: quality control engineers, software engineers, clean room use, skilled labor, etc...
The colon after the word run really does make a difference. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Yeah, Canonical will have software engineers of their own on the project, but so will the OEM. They need trained personnel to oversee the flashing of the ROMs on the factory floor. To the best of my knowledge, Canonical has never built hardware - their personnel most likely will not be retooled to production. The entire endeavor is outsourced so far as I can see...
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Old 08/08/2013, 03:02 PM   #13 (permalink)
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It doesn't make sense to me. WebOS is suffering from more that lack of new hardware. It's being killed by lack of dev support. That's the whole point of ACL for touchpad. Open WebOS has even less than that, because even the proprietary parts of WebOS, which make a lot of the cool stuff possible, were taken out.

Yes Canonical might pull it off, but they have been working up to it for years. PIC falls behind on ACL by a few weeks and half the community gets upset. Do we really have the patience to wait while someone tries to build a new phone, put open WebOS on it, and make it do all the things we want it to do?

Much as everyone would hate to admit it, the ACL is the #1 thing needed right now. If you really want to kickstarter something else useful, do something to help along efforts to update webkit in WebOS 2x and 3x, so that maybe people can use amazon prime again; or kickstarter something so that people can watch hulu and browse the app catalog at the same time; or kickstarter the dozens of other things needed so that we can make full use of what we got now.
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Old 08/08/2013, 03:16 PM   #14 (permalink)
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@RumoredNow: Ah, yeah the typo makes a difference indeed.

But far as I understood from inside sources, Canonical *is* planning to produce the Edge in-house (that means: in a rented facility in which they do their own production) once they reach the funding goal on Indiegogo.
They don't have experience yet with building smartphones but they have produced *some* hardware prototypes (like the modified Motorola WebTop dock and some other own-built protoypes) in-house.

But I agree that we lack all that personell so I stand corrected, it will cost more for us to produce a webOS phone.
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Old 08/08/2013, 03:19 PM   #15 (permalink)
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or kickstarter something so that people can watch hulu and browse the app catalog at the same time; or kickstarter the dozens of other things needed so that we can make full use of what we got now.
Or you can kickstart a memory transplant for me. My memory is becoming worse every month so learning Enyo is quite tough for me. Which is a shame because I don't have school or a job so I basically have all the time in the world to learn Enyo and build a gazillion needed webOS apps.
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Old 08/08/2013, 05:06 PM   #16 (permalink)
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[...] or kickstarter something so that people can watch hulu and browse the app catalog at the same time [...]
Oh, that's easy, should only be a few minutes work.

Remember how Vistaus cloned the Touchpad's browser and added his own UI improvements?

The cloned browser had its own UA string that enabled people to run the Chrome useragent patch on the stock browser, while the second browser seems to have broadcast the default UA string and users were able to browse Google+ in it.

What the hulu patch does is patch the UA string on the Flash and the browser, so if we can manage to patch the second browser and not the main one, you can have the "Chrome" browser for hulu without being locked out of the App Catalog.

Of course, there could be unforeseen issues, but this seems like a really basic project.



And on the actual subject here, i wonder how much the alumina (aka sapphire)-based touchscreen costs. Normally this material is only found in high-end wristwatches (smaller than this current application) and on some military products.. i would guess the cost is higher than the usual ion-exchange hardened ("Gorilla") glass...
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