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Possible Hardware Targets: Fairphone, Geeksphone
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Old 05/12/2013, 04:16 PM   #1 (permalink)
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These phones seem like logical hardware targest for Open WebOS:

Geeksphone. Say 'hola' to the future
Keon and Peak, very cheap low end (maybe too low end) and mid-range smartphones for Firefox OS development. Last time I heard about Geeksphone, they were committed to making their phones as open as possible.

FairPhone | A seriously cool smartphone. Putting social values first
Somewhat idealistic project to create a "fair" smartphone. Not out yet but aims to be as open as possible. Does not seem to be strictly committed to one OS.

These are somewhat small, yet professional hardware projects similar in spirit to Open WebOS. That's why I think they would be great devices to run our little OS on.
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Old 05/12/2013, 04:48 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I've even been thinking some of Blu Products: Innovation always one step ahead of the mobile phone market with state of the art technology, brilliant and sexy designs phones. They are not Qualcomm powered, and rather inexpensive.

EDIT: Ultimately, you are going to want to look for hardware that is NOT Qualcomm based. Non-Qualcomm hardware tends to have better chances of getting support.
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Old 05/13/2013, 03:24 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I've even been thinking some of Blu Products: Innovation always one step ahead of the mobile phone market with state of the art technology, brilliant and sexy designs phones. They are not Qualcomm powered, and rather inexpensive.

EDIT: Ultimately, you are going to want to look for hardware that is NOT Qualcomm based. Non-Qualcomm hardware tends to have better chances of getting support.
dkirker - given your experience or knowledge of the inherent missing parts in openwebos, would it even be possible to deliver a open webos platform to a target device that is on par with webos 3.0.5. If yes what kind of expected quantum of resources are required to do this? say on a Non- qualcomm device.
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Old 05/13/2013, 09:30 AM   #4 (permalink)
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dkirker - given your experience or knowledge of the inherent missing parts in openwebos, would it even be possible to deliver a open webos platform to a target device that is on par with webos 3.0.5. If yes what kind of expected quantum of resources are required to do this? say on a Non- qualcomm device.
openwebOS for Allwinner A10 tablet

deadend as most end up due to mostly gfx acceleration, there have been several others as well mostly hitting the exact same stumbling blocks.
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Old 05/13/2013, 12:51 PM   #5 (permalink)
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dkirker - given your experience or knowledge of the inherent missing parts in openwebos, would it even be possible to deliver a open webos platform to a target device that is on par with webos 3.0.5. If yes what kind of expected quantum of resources are required to do this? say on a Non- qualcomm device.
Right now the answer is "no". There are still many components missing. A few need to be open sourced or re-written, and others need to be re-written (as they are proprietary).
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Old 05/14/2013, 12:58 AM   #6 (permalink)
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What I would really like to see at a certain stage is an inventory of "what we have" and "what we still need", maybe classified roughly how tough or how unlikely the implementation/open sourcing of the missing parts is.

Something like:
Luna/Cards ... ok but slow
Graphics acceleration ... missing but worked on for some HW-models
Synergy ... missing, difficult to get back, must be reimplemented or opensourced from 305
...

etc.

Just a thought. Maybe there is such a list somewhere and I just don't know it, but if not I would think, something like this is a good thing for devs to
a) see what work is cut out for them
b) be able to check off what goals have been reached.

As I said, just a thought, paid for with my 2 cents...
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Old 05/14/2013, 03:31 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I am not aware of the Firefox operating systems that will launched for mobiles.. Actually i joined here because i love technical things to learn & another reason is i am looking for feedback of dual sim adapter which i am think to use...
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Old 05/14/2013, 04:11 AM   #8 (permalink)
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What I would really like to see at a certain stage is an inventory of "what we have" and "what we still need", maybe classified roughly how tough or how unlikely the implementation/open sourcing of the missing parts is.

Something like:
Luna/Cards ... ok but slow
Graphics acceleration ... missing but worked on for some HW-models
Synergy ... missing, difficult to get back, must be reimplemented or opensourced from 305
...

etc.

Just a thought. Maybe there is such a list somewhere and I just don't know it, but if not I would think, something like this is a good thing for devs to
a) see what work is cut out for them
b) be able to check off what goals have been reached.

As I said, just a thought, paid for with my 2 cents...
The list isn't there (yet). I believe the WebOS Ports wiki page would be a good location for that.

I believe the Ports guys want to overhaul their Wiki so it's clearer and provides more detailed information, similar to Cyanogenmod's Wiki

I have quite some webdesign/CMS experience, but never played with Wiki to be honest, but I might be able to offer help to WebOS Ports there to get it setup in a similar way to Cyanogenmod?
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Old 06/19/2013, 02:06 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I would love to see webOS on a fairphone. It's the right phone to target
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Old 07/05/2013, 07:16 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Yeah, that would be great.
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Old 09/23/2013, 10:41 PM   #11 (permalink)
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For those thinking about building a handset, here is some info:
http://www.fairphone.com/wp-content/...y_Sept2013.pdf

Fairphone | A seriously cool smartphone. Putting social values first.

As a target for Open webOS, this is a rooted, dual sim phone. The supplied OS is apparently stock Android with a few widgets/tweaks to offer a familiar, stable interface, but it looks like it could run Sailfish, FF, Ubuntu so I guess OwOS will not be a problem...(?)

325 Euros. They have 10,000 left of 25,000 if anyone's interested. Seems a reasonable spec. They also claim you can service it yourself to an extent.

Last edited by Preemptive; 09/23/2013 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 09/23/2013, 11:47 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Could Open WebOS be made to run on top of an Android 4.0 base, just like Firefox OS does? It seems like that would make porting so much easier.
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Old 09/24/2013, 01:28 AM   #13 (permalink)
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For those thinking about building a handset, here is some info:
http://www.fairphone.com/wp-content/...y_Sept2013.pdf

Fairphone | A seriously cool smartphone. Putting social values first.

As a target for Open webOS, this is a rooted, dual sim phone. The supplied OS is apparently stock Android with a few widgets/tweaks to offer a familiar, stable interface, but it looks like it could run Sailfish, FF, Ubuntu so I guess OwOS will not be a problem...(?)

325 Euros. They have 10,000 left of 25,000 if anyone's interested. Seems a reasonable spec. They also claim you can service it yourself to an extent.
According to the full spec sheet: Fairphone - Fairphone Shop the 3G radio is 900/2100 and would only be of use in part of the world.

Any of the OS choices you mention would still have to get ported...


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Originally Posted by trwrt View Post
Could Open WebOS be made to run on top of an Android 4.0 base, just like Firefox OS does? It seems like that would make porting so much easier.
OwOS is moving to the same process being used by Ubuntu Touch and Sailfish... The Android bits are made to run inside the native OS...

WebOS-Ports

Quote:
All in all we're basing our porting efforts on top of the libhybris project (see https://github.com/libhybris/libhybris) which enables us to utilize the Android hardware drivers to support most hardware dependent things (like accelerated graphics, telephony, sensors, GPS, ...). Our developers are contributing to the libhybris project in a continuous manner so we can share things developed as part of the libhybris project with its other users (Mer, Salfish, Ubuntu Touch, ...). For example libhybris is the same thing which powers Ubuntu Touch on all the different Android based devices.
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Old 09/24/2013, 08:58 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Any of the OS choices you mention would still have to get ported...
Oh, I'm not saying easy (and had a question mark in brackets!) I'm just saying that a fairly open phone running Android and an unlocked bootloader should be less problematic than a locked bootloader, closed hardware, proprietary sytem. As you say, libhybris and all that...

Though Fairphone seem more interested in manufacturing ethics than er, 'geeky' stuff, the commitment to sustainability extends to being able to dissassemble the device for service and presumably update the OS yourself and to a system of your choice once past the standard 2 year guarantee. I wonder if the hardware & OS are sort of covered separately, so if you bricked it without damaging the hardware, they'd restore it for you?

Regarding sustainability, I gather they have been criticised for having this as an ideal rather than an end to end practice as yet. Their stance seems to be that it's not yet possible and to change the 'rules' of the game you first have to become a player. I haven't looked closely at their progress as yet, but good luck to them.
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Old 09/25/2013, 12:08 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Oh, I'm not saying easy (and had a question mark in brackets!) I'm just saying that a fairly open phone running Android and an unlocked bootloader should be less problematic than a locked bootloader, closed hardware, proprietary sytem. As you say, libhybris and all that...

Though Fairphone seem more interested in manufacturing ethics than er, 'geeky' stuff, the commitment to sustainability extends to being able to dissassemble the device for service and presumably update the OS yourself and to a system of your choice once past the standard 2 year guarantee. I wonder if the hardware & OS are sort of covered separately, so if you bricked it without damaging the hardware, they'd restore it for you?

Regarding sustainability, I gather they have been criticised for having this as an ideal rather than an end to end practice as yet. Their stance seems to be that it's not yet possible and to change the 'rules' of the game you first have to become a player. I haven't looked closely at their progress as yet, but good luck to them.
As it is right now, I think hardware availability is the least of our problems. Open Webos is like a horse running on 2 and 1/2 legs with the other 1 1/2 leg crippled because of portions not available in the opensource.
LG is not putting any effort to get things like -synergy, hardware acceleration, phone integration, email integration opensourced, so at this moment it's left to folks like Openports to 'patch' the opensource.

Right now, it's like a crippled mobile OS, with no end in sight.... We can put the blame on HP, but that is history. Not much movement from open ports --- not that i can blame them. So any current 'fans' are stuck in limbo, and I think this will continue for the next 6 months or so....that would mean No new hardware for OpenWebos- and I'm being not overally pessimistic...
Any other options for webos users? - none...that is my prognosis..

Another thought --- look at Cynogenmod - the custom ROM.. Heard they changed the license and now plan to offer their ROM to third party hardware vendors to differentiate. I can see China hardware vendors jumping on this because by doing this they can focus on hardware differentiation - but outsource the software support, drivers, differentiation to one company- which Cynogenmod guys have successfully signed up to their Android flavour.

Last edited by daexpression; 09/25/2013 at 03:44 AM.
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Old 09/25/2013, 09:49 PM   #16 (permalink)
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As it is right now, I think hardware availability is the least of our problems. Open Webos is like a horse running on 2 and 1/2 legs with the other 1 1/2 leg crippled because of portions not available in the opensource.
LG is not putting any effort to get things like -synergy, hardware acceleration, phone integration, email integration opensourced, so at this moment it's left to folks like Openports to 'patch' the opensource.

Right now, it's like a crippled mobile OS, with no end in sight.... We can put the blame on HP, but that is history. Not much movement from open ports --- not that i can blame them. So any current 'fans' are stuck in limbo, and I think this will continue for the next 6 months or so....that would mean No new hardware for OpenWebos- and I'm being not overally pessimistic...
Any other options for webos users? - none...that is my prognosis..

Another thought --- look at Cynogenmod - the custom ROM.. Heard they changed the license and now plan to offer their ROM to third party hardware vendors to differentiate. I can see China hardware vendors jumping on this because by doing this they can focus on hardware differentiation - but outsource the software support, drivers, differentiation to one company- which Cynogenmod guys have successfully signed up to their Android flavour.
I sort of take your point to the extent that if you want AN operating system, Cyanogenmod, especially given the recent announcement potentially offers the benefits of the Android eco-system AND those of HB developers. Soon with easy installation!

BUT!

Being a packaged form of Android means that Cyanogenmod supports a range of quality hardware already (including the touchpad). Fairphone is running a lightly modded Android, so a very likely candidate for Cyanogenmod.

This is a webOS forum.

Cyanogenmod may well have it's own forum, but you can certainly discuss it on xdadevelopers and probably Android Central. The high level of interest stems in part from the very ubiquity of Android. You can have OEM skinned, Google stock or various HB versions on many of the current popular handsets.

It probably started with a tweak of how to get amazing feature X from one phone onto your device or how to remove annoyance Y from your OEM skinned device.

(oh no, it's going to be another long one!)

webOS currently runs on aging devices. Open webOS does not run on any phone as far as I'm aware. The target is the Gnex. If a functional (usable) but not 'complete' system is successfully ported to this device, it simultaneously increases the possiblity of porting to other open, Android friendly devices such as Fairphone AND may encourage development by a wider group who can play with and add to the system according to their needs. They may not have the level of skills of those doing the port, but a usable port will be the heavy lifting that enables the tinkerers & enthusiasts to have a go. This will also apply to the type of people who are homebrewing Android. They might install webOS on an old Gnex , decide it is good and add their own efforts to the porting / modding effort. This, then might increase the momentum of Open webOS.

It seems Open webOS is close. Maybe not in time, but in features. (graphics, dialling - basic functionality). It's release may not open any floodgates, but a working model may bring more interested devs. This may supply the missing leg and a half.

The problem is the currently small number of developers and NO hardware. Increasing either may increase the other. Hardware is a problem & Fairphone one of the potential solutions.
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Old 09/27/2013, 01:50 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I sort of take your point to the extent that if you want AN operating system, Cyanogenmod, especially given the recent announcement potentially offers the benefits of the Android eco-system AND those of HB developers. Soon with easy installation!

BUT!

Being a packaged form of Android means that Cyanogenmod supports a range of quality hardware already (including the touchpad). Fairphone is running a lightly modded Android, so a very likely candidate for Cyanogenmod.

This is a webOS forum.

Cyanogenmod may well have it's own forum, but you can certainly discuss it on xdadevelopers and probably Android Central. The high level of interest stems in part from the very ubiquity of Android. You can have OEM skinned, Google stock or various HB versions on many of the current popular handsets.

It probably started with a tweak of how to get amazing feature X from one phone onto your device or how to remove annoyance Y from your OEM skinned device.

(oh no, it's going to be another long one!)

webOS currently runs on aging devices. Open webOS does not run on any phone as far as I'm aware. The target is the Gnex. If a functional (usable) but not 'complete' system is successfully ported to this device, it simultaneously increases the possiblity of porting to other open, Android friendly devices such as Fairphone AND may encourage development by a wider group who can play with and add to the system according to their needs. They may not have the level of skills of those doing the port, but a usable port will be the heavy lifting that enables the tinkerers & enthusiasts to have a go. This will also apply to the type of people who are homebrewing Android. They might install webOS on an old Gnex , decide it is good and add their own efforts to the porting / modding effort. This, then might increase the momentum of Open webOS.

It seems Open webOS is close. Maybe not in time, but in features. (graphics, dialling - basic functionality). It's release may not open any floodgates, but a working model may bring more interested devs. This may supply the missing leg and a half.

The problem is the currently small number of developers and NO hardware. Increasing either may increase the other. Hardware is a problem & Fairphone one of the potential solutions.
Hi preemptive,

my reason for bringing out Cynogenmod example was more of the model of the 'business' rather then the ROM itself. My arguement was that if HP had given at least a 3.5 legged Opensource OS, enthutiasts could have put in the 0.5 leg and get it up and running faster. With it being available earlier for say Gnex, there would be a feedback loop and more enthutiasts would put in their code to extend OpenWebos...and it would become better...

Right now- it's not even PHONE ready!!!... that is just my point. Cynogenmod - the guys who took up the idea now have build it to such as state that it's ready to be plugged into various phones. They had a business plan- they stuck to it, they believed in what they were doing and now they are having at least One OEM putting their ROM into the phone. THAT is progress wouldn't you say?

You can probably feel my frustration , unfortunately I'm no developer, so cannot help in that way. I like Webos, but progress is like an ant trying to move through molasses...I would like to point fingers..but right now, there is really no one to point to...
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Old 09/27/2013, 04:51 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Hi preemptive,

my reason for bringing out Cynogenmod example was more of the model of the 'business' rather then the ROM itself. My arguement was that if HP had given at least a 3.5 legged Opensource OS, enthutiasts could have put in the 0.5 leg and get it up and running faster. With it being available earlier for say Gnex, there would be a feedback loop and more enthutiasts would put in their code to extend OpenWebos...and it would become better...

Right now- it's not even PHONE ready!!!... that is just my point. Cynogenmod - the guys who took up the idea now have build it to such as state that it's ready to be plugged into various phones. They had a business plan- they stuck to it, they believed in what they were doing and now they are having at least One OEM putting their ROM into the phone. THAT is progress wouldn't you say?

You can probably feel my frustration , unfortunately I'm no developer, so cannot help in that way. I like Webos, but progress is like an ant trying to move through molasses...I would like to point fingers..but right now, there is really no one to point to...
Yes, of course we all share your frustration... ;-)

My view of the ACL situation is that it might at least encourage those tempted to trade in a TP for an Android tablet, to keep hold of it long enough for a new webOS option to arrive, but that option will require 'new' (or not so old!) hardware.

My understanding of Cyanogenmod and the like, is that they offered packages or distros of Android - an OS that was open source, though largely developed and therefore controlled by a big, rich corporation. As open source, it allowed OEMs to 'skin' it, which aided it's takeup and spread. I'm not clear how much CM is a repackaging or skinning of Android or how much is original coding, but it's obviously based on an existing, functional product - like taking a production car and retuning or customising the body work.

With webOS, the original first had to be open sourced. The effort seemed little more than HP trying to do the right thing by at least not killing it. As you say, some parts never made it that far and the release was not targeted to any particular mobile device, so (back to the car analogy) it's a chassis with a half built engine. It might make it around a test track, but it's not ready for the road. webOS-Ports simply don't have the resources of google, so there's no real telling how long the wait will be.

On the plus side, the interface works, Enyo plan to support it (I think...), it's possible to make a call with it and the display problem appears solved. The Libhybris drivers will hopefully make it easier to get it on to other devices, but switching to these may have caused further delay. Another couple of positives I see is that finding a way to run it on the tracks laid by Android (now it's a train!) opens up the possibility of devices beyond the nexus range, maybe using the installer CM are developing. As BB10 is unlikely to be opensourced, there maybe some recently unemployed engineers in Canada with time to tinker until the next opportunity comes along. Synergy+BBM?

My suggestion is that releasing a basic but functional Open webOS might encourage a wider group to start filling the gaps. The question is, how basic?

If we were to assume that OwOS can piggy back onto the CM installer (tell me if it's impossible) what devices might be on offer?
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Last edited by Preemptive; 09/27/2013 at 04:58 AM.
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Old 01/29/2014, 01:12 PM   #19 (permalink)
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New geeksphone (revolution) has the ability for dual-OS, Android, and a secondary "community supported OS". Interesting...
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