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webOS Apps on Open webOS?
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Old 02/05/2013, 12:16 PM   #1 (permalink)
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I haven't heard much about it, and it may seem like a noobish question, but will we be able to run our normal webOS 2.24 apps (such as Project Macaw, or Splashtop Streamer) on Open webOS, or will they have to be recoded?
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Old 02/05/2013, 12:47 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I haven't heard much about it, and it may seem like a noobish question, but will we be able to run our normal webOS 2.24 apps (such as Project Macaw, or Splashtop Streamer) on Open webOS, or will they have to be recoded?
By default only Enyo apps will work on Open webOS... however, one can extract the Mojo framework and supporting frameworks and can get older applications to work on Open webOS... the question is how would one provide that functionality (downloading a doctor, extracting the bits, and putting them into Open webOS)? This is not something besides a developer would do. Gram might in their Open webOS Pro version, but they have not released anything as of yet...

But with the new Open webOS x86 (virtual box) version one can use the webOS 3.0.5 SDK and extract the bits and port it into the Open webOS version (it does work)...

HP/Palm/Gram needs to produce hardware and a core OS... or Open webOS will be a developer OS only...

To bad, webOS could have been... but it is what it is...
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Old 02/05/2013, 12:50 PM   #3 (permalink)
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If it's that easy to get Mojo working it's really stupid they didn't include Mojo for backwards compatibility of apps. There are tons of apps that are written in Moko, not so many in Enyo. Since Mojo was Palm too, I cannot see much legal issues to be honest....

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Old 02/05/2013, 01:53 PM   #4 (permalink)
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If it's that easy to get Mojo working it's really stupid they didn't include Mojo for backwards compatibility of apps. There are tons of apps that are written in Moko, not so many in Enyo. Since Mojo was Palm too, I cannot see much legal issues to be honest....

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Seems there is a lot of code that would not be "Open"... So they only have so many people they could have scrub the code to remove the copyrighted 3rd party code. There plan was to Open as much as they could not looking back, Mojo framework was looking back, Enjo was looking forward...

Nothing is hard, it just involves using closed source (doctor extract) and importing them into Open webOS.

HP/Palm/Gram have the copyrights and they can Open/release something but instead they do nothing... Seems that a lot of good Mojo apps are left to waste like the great hardware of webOS...
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Old 02/05/2013, 02:08 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Splashtop is Enyo and Macaw is currently in pre-alpha for Enyo.
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Old 02/05/2013, 02:59 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Seems there is a lot of code that would not be "Open"... So they only have so many people they could have scrub the code to remove the copyrighted 3rd party code. There plan was to Open as much as they could not looking back, Mojo framework was looking back, Enjo was looking forward...

Nothing is hard, it just involves using closed source (doctor extract) and importing them into Open webOS.

HP/Palm/Gram have the copyrights and they can Open/release something but instead they do nothing... Seems that a lot of good Mojo apps are left to waste like the great hardware of webOS...
That's exactly what I mean, the effort is relatively small and they could have at least SOME ecosystem instead of re-starting it pretty much from scratch. Recent months progress with releases didn't make me too happy: QT5/Webkit 2 is still not there, while it would be done end of December more or less. Media bits are still not ready while they would be in January as well if you look at the blog postings. The lack of progress can be understandable due to complexity, holiday season etc. Still even though they mentioned in December to give some updates in January, they didn't. I asked them on Twitter, no answer either. A simple: Sorry we ran into some "quality control issues/technical challenges" and need a little longer would pretty much do it, but instead all the focus is on Enyo and all kinds of conferences/events....


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Old 02/05/2013, 03:01 PM   #7 (permalink)
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...There plan was to Open as much as they could not looking back, Mojo framework was looking back, Enjo was looking forward...
Considering their track record of abandoning the old as soon as they released the new, I'd wager that it is all about that and little to nothing to do with closed source code bits. If it can be made to work, I think it would be worthwhile. One thing I never did was compare the Mojo libraries from 2.x with those included in 3.x to see how different the 3.x version was.
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Old 02/05/2013, 03:19 PM   #8 (permalink)
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As much I do still like a few Mojo apps, I do understand them. How do you get people on to the new, more modern thing if you still give them the option of the old thing? All companies make these kind of changes. I hear no one whining about the changed framework on BB10 or Windows Phone 7 -> 8. Sometimes you have to force the new thing to get people stop using the old thing and that is what HP is after. Out with the old one, in with the new.
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Old 02/05/2013, 04:47 PM   #9 (permalink)
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with a platform having a lot of dev ,"out with the old" is a reasonable statement. But if no one is there to develop a new app for an old mojo one then the platform is even harder to use then before. I just think about the original tasks app which never made it to 3.x even if 2.x app runs on 3.x . Not to mention of all the great synergy (google sync/eas sync...) stuff deleted in openwebos which makes it unusable for daily use atm.
So a legacy framework kit for openwebos would be very nice to have the same functions/apps as 3.x at least (better 2.x and 3.x)
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Old 02/05/2013, 04:57 PM   #10 (permalink)
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As much I do still like a few Mojo apps, I do understand them. How do you get people on to the new, more modern thing if you still give them the option of the old thing? All companies make these kind of changes. I hear no one whining about the changed framework on BB10 or Windows Phone 7 -> 8. Sometimes you have to force the new thing to get people stop using the old thing and that is what HP is after. Out with the old one, in with the new.
those other devices you mention can still be bought and are still active, we on the other hand arent so we need ANYTHING we can get, and as we dont have the luxury of a massive influx of open webOS/enyo2 devs we need to use whatever we can, which atm means old stuff.

if we just wait for new stuff well simply end up with virtually nothing.
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Old 02/05/2013, 05:47 PM   #11 (permalink)
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@geekpeter: Well, I can't buy a BB10 device in my country so your point is partially valid. But still, the devs that are still around should be looking into porting their apps to Enyo IMHO which is kicking off now because various popular apps are being ported to Enyo 2 like sprw, Macaw, Internalz, Maps (Phx Maps to be exact) and some devs are slowly converting like r72a (or what's his name? the guy who gave us Google Maps back).
I do agree though that we don't have much hardware so it's harder for the devs. But still, the Touchpad isn't going to die anytime soon, same applies to at least the Pre 3. Plus there's always the emulator...

@gizmo21: If Leo didn't rush the Touchpad then we'd have the Tasks app. That's not a matter of framework, that's a matter of rushing an unfinished tablet (mostly software wise) out on the market. The same may apply for Synergy but I'll give you my word on that. Although Synergy will come back in OpenWebOS Pro edition so your point of it missing isn't really that valid; it's only missing because they're heading into a different direction with Synergy/OWO.
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Old 02/05/2013, 08:23 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I wasn't going to waste my time writing apps that would only run on a Touchpad, or in limited fashion on a Pre3 at the time. At that time, most users had phones that couldn't run Enyo apps, and when It became possible to package Enyo for the phones, many things ran poorly (scrollers) or not at all (web view), so it wasn't worth my time, because I do this in my spare time, and didn't have time to maintain two app versions. I liked a lot about Enyo, but didn't appreciate being told by Palm the future meant stiffing existing users to move to a new, unproven framework.
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Old 02/06/2013, 04:26 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I was talking about NOW, with the situation around webOS vs OpenWebOS. Thought I made that clear enough. Back then I do understand the choice, but now it's different.
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Old 02/06/2013, 04:51 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I wasn't going to waste my time writing apps that would only run on a Touchpad, or in limited fashion on a Pre3 at the time. At that time, most users had phones that couldn't run Enyo apps, and when It became possible to package Enyo for the phones, many things ran poorly (scrollers) or not at all (web view), so it wasn't worth my time, because I do this in my spare time, and didn't have time to maintain two app versions. I liked a lot about Enyo, but didn't appreciate being told by Palm the future meant stiffing existing users to move to a new, unproven framework.
Anyways you would be ****ed... calling Enyo2 as Enyo is a joke. Yeah, the coding style is the same, but it's completely different: lists are different, layout is different, events are different... for the better, in most cases, but different anyways.

We've been screwed many times in many ways, but...
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Old 02/06/2013, 06:14 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I didn't say Enyo 2 = Enyo, I only implied that the jump from Mojo to Enyo was waaay bigger than the jump from Enyo to Enyo 2 is.
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Old 02/06/2013, 07:44 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I was talking about NOW, with the situation around webOS vs OpenWebOS. Thought I made that clear enough. Back then I do understand the choice, but now it's different.
Well, there really is no Open webOS target market right now. A handful of techies running an alpha OS isn't a market. It's the same situation though - you can't support both versions; you have to choose. I just don't have time right now.
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Old 02/06/2013, 08:05 PM   #17 (permalink)
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either way we take any of the above arguments apps are required, and not just exotic/niche apps, i mean core apps that people want and use regularly, and so far "old" apps are the only route available atm, if we sit and wait for new stuff to arrive native to open webOS well just end up with the openmobile/ACL situation, sat on our backsides eating promises and expectations but ultimatly getting nowhere.

get any old apps working somehow now (if realistically possible) and worry about native/new stuff later.
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Old 02/07/2013, 12:36 AM   #18 (permalink)
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...if we sit and wait for new stuff to arrive native to open webOS well just end up with the openmobile/ACL situation, sat on our backsides eating promises and expectations but ultimatly getting nowhere.

....
Which is exactly the situation.

HP threw openWebOS out into the open and basically expects the community to do the basework for them.
It is a bit like a shipyard throwing out half a ship, expecting the water to carry it.
Well, the ship will sink...
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Old 02/07/2013, 04:48 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Which is exactly the situation.

HP threw openWebOS out into the open and basically expects the community to do the basework for them.
It is a bit like a shipyard throwing out half a ship, expecting the water to carry it.
Well, the ship will sink...
While I do agree with you partly, I also think you don't really understand what open source means. It means that *anyone* can colloborate. So I do agree that HP should've done a bit more up till now but it's not really a bad thing for them to let other devs do some work, else they wouldn't have open sourced it in the first place because with closed source they can do what they want themselves.
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Old 02/07/2013, 06:30 AM   #20 (permalink)
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once the likes of ares2 works fully i would imagine things will get easier, personally i suck with html/css/web stuff in general and when i tried making a set of UI's for simple "beginner" apps i got so damned frustrated because ares was bust and ares2 was nowhere in sight and doing it all manually was and still is utterly alien to me so everything i made looked like dogpoo.

true when i made mods for WoW in lua there was still a GUI issue but i found that rather easy after some time when i got going and information was easy enough to come by, plus like opensource apps, wow lua mods were open to look, investigate and learn from.

even easier than that was the days of using blitz basic and XenGUI editor on the amiga, damned easy to knock up workbench programs to do whatever the hell you wanted, or god forbid you were an amos programmer, a tad more annoying there.

i suppose after all this time im the kind that prefers to knock up non functional mock GUI's first to see how i want things visually laid out first, it often gave me flashes of inspiration to add other things i had not planned originally.

webOS had taught me 1 thing, the "web" and its apps is the future, and i suck making things for it, "web" apps infuriate me, utilising html/jscript/css to me seems a ball of mashed together stuff that each hates the other and often refuses to work well without having to google some forums for assistance every time something doesnt go the way you (i) expect it.

i utterly dispise html/css/jscript because me as an utter nooblet find aquiring "in-date / working" material for it a nightmare, great there is the usual "hello world" or other beginner app that adds some rubbish buttons and other basic stuff but after that ends and you want to do something actually useful, thats where i slam into brick walls, esp on the webOS side of things, im either reading the wrong places or i find sites that assume i know how to use every function they list when in fact im desperate to know how they work in full.

i found several useful sites on jscript and tbh soem werent bad but again id slam my head into a wall when id find many thigns simply did not work as intended and id scour forums to find a "fix", spending far too long for some obscure work around that may or may not work.

webOS apps others make, yeah i love them, find them dead useful, and im always amazed when i see ones with simple and attractive gui's, makes me both glad i can use it and annoying that i cant do similar when i used to be able too on older systems. (maybe its just the creeping old age making me stupid these days).

webOS devs, yeah love them to bits, amazed when they still deliver quality apps to a phone/tablet i enjoy using, the programming side i think ill abandon it, then later decide to try again, get annoyed, fail and give up again, and kinda loop around that way for a while.

btw while im back in a "try again" kinda mood, does anyone know how in the hell you manually add the webOS emulation/images into an up to date virtualbox and have them work? i cant even downgrade from a new version to an old as other things i run dont work on the older versions and ofc webOS doesnt work on the new ones (unless you install the old, have all the entrys added to run them, THEN upgrade, it all works then), i did try a downgrade however there must have been leftovers or something as the old one refused to install properly even when id fully removed the new one (in ubuntu).

im trying to avoid turning my laptops into "dev" machines, id rather just use my normal every day use PC.

/end crazed venting.
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