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Old 10/12/2012, 10:42 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Open webOS Profession Edition to be how Gram makes money | webOS Nation

Good news. No?
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Old 10/12/2012, 11:32 AM   #2 (permalink)
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It's… curious. As my comment on there alluded to, it's hard to make money from the OS, especially when you're trying to make money from an open source bit of software. They have their work out cut out for them
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Old 10/12/2012, 11:43 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Uh oh, I feel segmentation. There are going to be OEMs who don't want to pay for it, and then develop their own services to serve apps and backup. And for me as a consumer, I would have a good reason to not install Open webOS on my TouchPad (if possible) if I can't enjoy those features after upgrading.

Just thinking, maybe we can host our own local backup servers in case something goes wrong with the regular ones.
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Old 10/12/2012, 12:07 PM   #4 (permalink)
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heh.. I think it's premature of them to think that just by having a "professional edition" it would make money.. Firstly they keep forgetting about the eco system. Right now there is Zilch ecosystem. Maybe some remnant developers - like those here, who still think webos is feasible but there are those who've given up on the platform and moved to android and IOS.

Secondly which ODM is going to pay for OS, and pay for the platform (cloud services). It's costly and again without the ecosystem, they'd still loose money, and on top because they've to mfg the hardware / r&d etc, the easier way is to go android...

Thirdly how much forward can they get the PE edition from the open source version?... hardware acceleration is not there, so many missing drivers..it's half baked at the moment, unless those guys at Gram have had the 1.0 ++ all these stuff pulled from webos 3.0.5 and retrofitted for the new PE edition...Even then!!!... no phone so back to square one...
They seem to forget that Redhat became what it was NOT by building it's own Linux but building ontop of a growing and strong Linux community, and focusing on corporate Linux editions. How much can a Mobile OS feed them?. given it's mostly to consumers??..
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Old 10/12/2012, 12:28 PM   #5 (permalink)
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...Thirdly how much forward can they get the PE edition from the open source version?... hardware acceleration is not there, so many missing drivers..it's half baked at the moment, unless those guys at Gram have had the 1.0 ++ all these stuff pulled from webos 3.0.5 and retrofitted for the new PE edition...Even then!!!... no phone so back to square one...
They seem to forget that Redhat became what it was NOT by building it's own Linux but building ontop of a growing and strong Linux community, and focusing on corporate Linux editions. How much can a Mobile OS feed them?. given it's mostly to consumers??..
PE would have drivers - a paid version recoups the cost of closed source drivers...

Next Step? An HP Touch Panel PC sporting webOS PE? And full cloud synergy support courtesy of HP?

Still in waiting mode... I've said previously we don't have all the puzzle pieces so we can't assemble the picture yet...
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Old 10/12/2012, 01:17 PM   #6 (permalink)
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best fix the database full error and other show stopper webOS issues before they stake their livelyhood on it.
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Old 10/12/2012, 02:41 PM   #7 (permalink)
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i think if hp leverages the cloud services and ecosystem aspects properly they could provide a full package for companies and giving them an advantage to differentiate with windows (e.g. exclusive enyo apps and services on hp pcs).
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Old 10/12/2012, 03:16 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I for myself cant see any interest in WebOS on a full pc. Well i use those things for work mostly and i cant see any use for a tablet os on it.

Another question i ask myself is how can hp believe to sell this thing in the future. I wouldnt buy a os that was killed of by the company once and they dont even trust it enough to produce hardware for it.
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Old 10/12/2012, 04:08 PM   #9 (permalink)
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heh.. I think it's premature of them to think that just by having a "professional edition" it would make money.. Firstly they keep forgetting about the eco system. Right now there is Zilch ecosystem. Maybe some remnant developers - like those here, who still think webos is feasible but there are those who've given up on the platform and moved to android and IOS.

Secondly which ODM is going to pay for OS, and pay for the platform (cloud services). It's costly and again without the ecosystem, they'd still loose money, and on top because they've to mfg the hardware / r&d etc, the easier way is to go android...

Thirdly how much forward can they get the PE edition from the open source version?... hardware acceleration is not there, so many missing drivers..it's half baked at the moment, unless those guys at Gram have had the 1.0 ++ all these stuff pulled from webos 3.0.5 and retrofitted for the new PE edition...Even then!!!... no phone so back to square one...
They seem to forget that Redhat became what it was NOT by building it's own Linux but building ontop of a growing and strong Linux community, and focusing on corporate Linux editions. How much can a Mobile OS feed them?. given it's mostly to consumers??..
Ok, you came up with some good points that are dead wrong.

1st. When Red Hat came up with it's model of selling services for an open source OS, people similar to you panned their model. They are now making over a billion a year.

2nd. ODMs do not have to pay for OWOS. They only pay if they chose to use PE, according to the story. Anyone can download and use OWOS for free.

3rd. I'm pretty sure that Gram and the community will add the missing functionality in time. Drivers are built by the hardware manufacturer (the ODM) so I'm sure they will be included with the device. The Linux community was small when Redhat first started off. Also, to reiterate the OS is free to everyone, not just consumers.

I understand the concern. Let's just see how this plays out.
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Old 10/12/2012, 05:24 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Why is everyone shooting down the idea of webOS succeeding? Open webOS just got released, so of course its going to have its bugs, and lack of an ecosystem is something that can be fixed over time. Android wasn't exactly perfect when it was released either, but now its a great OS!
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Old 10/12/2012, 05:30 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I for myself cant see any interest in WebOS on a full pc. Well i use those things for work mostly and i cant see any use for a tablet os on it.

Another question i ask myself is how can hp believe to sell this thing in the future. I wouldnt buy a os that was killed of by the company once and they dont even trust it enough to produce hardware for it.
It won't really replace the average PC, but with Touchscreen PCs becoming it more prevalent, it gives a better experience on such a device over anything currently running.

An example would be a CCTV control system, you have a screen split with various views (like in Glimpse), you can then select a pane, expand it, and manipulate it more intuitively than using the current raft of joystick, keyboard, and screen. This comes from someone with extensive experience in CCTV, and speed helps.

For designers, no more drawing on a tablet whilst looking at screen, you draw where it is.

As you can see, it's not for everyone but webOS can bring Linux onto a level with what Windows 8 will enable (one OS experience on all devices)
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Old 10/12/2012, 07:41 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Uh oh, I feel segmentation. There are going to be OEMs who don't want to pay for it, and then develop their own services to serve apps and backup. And for me as a consumer, I would have a good reason to not install Open webOS on my TouchPad (if possible) if I can't enjoy those features after upgrading.

Just thinking, maybe we can host our own local backup servers in case something goes wrong with the regular ones.
Segmentation only happens if you have more than one OEM! So I wouldn't worry about that yet! I don't think OEMs would want to run their ecosystem if HP does so for a reasonable price and doesn't throw in their own devices.
Paying HP to host isn't that costly. Paying for a mobile OS which could fail is hugely expensive which is no one would buy WebOS from HP. And if it is not successful then they can pull the plug cheaply. For example, HTC did more with windows then did very well with android (releasing dozens of phones) but now is getting killed by samsung. HTC is releasing some timely windows 8 phones now. I'm not saying HTC is interested but a ambitious OEM could esp in a less competitive market than US and europe. ?Asia. ALso consider non consumer devices like medical tablets for Elec health records, medical systems like CT scanners, MRIs where the open-ness of webOS is good and lack of apps is not a big problem. Palm devices were made into inventory scanners. No reason webOS can't either with more cloud capability. This may not satisfy all of us phone/tablet users but keeps webOS alive. What about car systems? Microsoft SYNC isn't universally liked and costs the car companies licensing fees. What about webOS in this nice? Apps wouldn't be an issue. Car companies like being proprietary and could make a skin easily.
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Old 10/13/2012, 06:01 AM   #13 (permalink)
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what if Professional Edition was available to private individuals to pay for and add to there own device. My thinking is that you would install openWebOS on your GNEX thanks to webOSPorts and the pay a small fee to Gram for additional cloud functionality etc.
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Old 10/13/2012, 07:15 AM   #14 (permalink)
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what if Professional Edition was available to private individuals to pay for and add to there own device. My thinking is that you would install openWebOS on your GNEX thanks to webOSPorts and the pay a small fee to Gram for additional cloud functionality etc.
Or PE has a CDMA driver for use with Verizon or Sprint.


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Last edited by etphoto; 10/13/2012 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 10/13/2012, 09:24 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Uh oh, I feel segmentation. There are going to be OEMs who don't want to pay for it, and then develop their own services to serve apps and backup. And for me as a consumer, I would have a good reason to not install Open webOS on my TouchPad (if possible) if I can't enjoy those features after upgrading.

Just thinking, maybe we can host our own local backup servers in case something goes wrong with the regular ones.

Don't forget that late last year webOS Internals came up with the webOS Survival Kit set of instructions in the even that Palm Profile servers are turned off... not sure if they can do that to the legacy devices? Who knows!


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what if Professional Edition was available to private individuals to pay for and add to there own device. My thinking is that you would install openWebOS on your GNEX thanks to webOSPorts and the pay a small fee to Gram for additional cloud functionality etc.

As ONE of its strategies to drive webOS adoption, I'd actually like to see Gram to try flip the mobile industry upside down by doing with webOS, what Microsoft did with Windows .. i.e. sell the OS directly to the consumer and ODM so they can install it on whatever hardware they desire ... So, I would like to envisage Gram providing the ability to easily install webOS PE onto any Android device out there ... I would buy it

It's just so different to how things are done in the industry and I think it would be a welcome change... Hardware is almost homogenous these days, bar actual physical design / appearance ... I mean most high-end phones are all virtually slabs with a Qualcom / NVIDIA processor, at least 1GB RAM, GPS, etc etc! Software is really where the battle should be.. and I gotta say, webOS still runs rings around iOS and Android Jelly bean in many respects IMO..

I guess challenges, however, include availability of unlocked bootloaders, drivers, whether any EULA are violated in the shoe-horning process and the age-old ecosystem debate. For ecosystem, I say a RIM-style Android App Player and Amazon partnership would be good here (OpenMobile seems very quiet at the moment) ... yes, leaning on Android apps are not the best solution as we do want the native ecosystem to eventually thrive, but without a stop-gap measure like this, I can't see ODMs or consumers dipping their feet into webOS :S ...
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Old 10/13/2012, 12:10 PM   #16 (permalink)
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...The fact that the two dominant mobile platforms are free to the end user, right now...
I'm not sure how iOS qualifies as "free" given the price iPhones sell for and it certainly isn't as flexible/replaceable as Android...

With CyanogenMod, Android is a bit closer to free, but no matter what is installed on a phone you are footing some R&D costs at purchase (or your carrier is subsidizing it and you pay through contract $)...

I would agree that most end users won't purchase and install a replacement OS for a phone and it does void all warranties if you do so.
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Old 10/13/2012, 06:45 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Selling a smartphone OS directly to customers? I hope that isn't their strategy because I can't think of anything that would be less viable. I'm sure the carriers and the retailers that sell most of these devices aren't going to want to take on the tech support issues inherent with this kind of scheme. The fact that the two dominant mobile platforms are free to the end user, right now, isn't exactly going to help the pricing of webOS PE to the end user, either.

With most users upgrading their subsidized smartphones for free to $199 (OS and ecosystem included), what would you recommend that webOS PE be priced at?

Thanks, sorry, I didn't mean specifically for Smartphones ... I tried to keep my comment broad / more general to encompass all situations by saying any hardware, but I meant moreso for tablets ... I know that there is almost zero chance that smartphone users will want to purchase another OS when every 18-24 months they can get new hardware for free / almost free on a new contract / contract renewal ... phones are essentially disposable devices with most consumers I'm thinking, having zero attachment. So really, it would probably only be diehard webOS fans who would pay.

I acknowledge and have faith in the work that webOS Ports is doing and do support them, but there could possibly be some devices for which HP / Gram would have better access to resources for the porting process.

As a Tablet OS for end users, I think that could some sort of market, seeing that end users are more likely to hang on to their tablets, and could possibly see the benefits in the UI of webOS. Yes, Android is free, but free does not necessarily mean good ... I'm sure that there are some people out there that would consider this option.

But like I said, I think this would be just ONE approach ... I mean surely Gram / HP can't be pinning all their hopes on community dev / targetting ODMs ... Don't get me wrong, I think the community is and always has done an amazing job with webOS, but if HP / Gram is realistically trying to get to No3 Mobile OS, wouldn't you think they would use the shotgun approach and just try explore every avenue possible to drive adoption / monetize webOS? I think it is in this way that upper level management of HP will be more willing to throw additional funding Gram's way / incorporate some sort of webOS into their long-term plans again..

Damn, i know we're not supposed to be thinking about the past anymore, but damn, how different things would have been if Leo wasn't so set on turning HP into IBM
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Old 10/14/2012, 01:34 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Ok, you came up with some good points that are dead wrong.

1st. When Red Hat came up with it's model of selling services for an open source OS, people similar to you panned their model. They are now making over a billion a year.

2nd. ODMs do not have to pay for OWOS. They only pay if they chose to use PE, according to the story. Anyone can download and use OWOS for free.

3rd. I'm pretty sure that Gram and the community will add the missing functionality in time. Drivers are built by the hardware manufacturer (the ODM) so I'm sure they will be included with the device. The Linux community was small when Redhat first started off. Also, to reiterate the OS is free to everyone, not just consumers.

I understand the concern. Let's just see how this plays out.
In reply. Redhat is only one of the few and there are only a few who make money out of open source by packing their services/ training and some 'licensed' pieces of technology into the open source package. You must understand that Redhat is selling into corporate. And corporations are interested in insurance, and risk management. The CIO is interested to pass the 'risk' of managing his infrastructure provided some cost savings. Redhat offers that. Do you think redhat will survive if it were selling redhat Linux versions to consumers? And by the way has any flavour of Linux gone mainstream in any sense? it's still Windows and now IOS. Why because majority of consumers probably the 80-20 rule just want a working OS and not have to fiddle with the innards. Apple was smart to build their IOS on a unix variant and put a nice layer on top making it easy for consumers to 'consume' the OS.
By the way red hat has been around since 1990s..and still its stuck at 1B revenue with a measly less than 200 mil net revenue - which is not alot for a software service company; if you benchmark with other so called software companies. And it's not an apple to apple comparison - different market segments because Redhat = enterprise and OWS is consumer.

2. I'd foresee ODMs (especially 2nd tier ODMs will think about using webos).. double edged sword. There are lots of 2nd tier Android phones from China... not all of them fantastic, but some of them are damn creative - with Phone + TV + MP3 player... However you do not really see it outside of China, and I only get to see it when a friend goes to China and buys one of these back. Frankly someone like Samsung will 'look' at it but ask themselves is it worth the risk? Do I have the resources to pump into grooming another OS? SHould I as samsung help Gr.am groom OWS? Should I risk damaging my relationship with google; and risk not getting r&D support etc from them?
Remember Samsung is in it for the $$, and right now it's Android which has proven to have the marketspace, share, technology, maturity of product etc.
No Commercial entity does charity in business..its a dog eat dog world.

3. Does Gr.am have the time to develop maturity into the product. Frankly do you think Gr.am will be able to match - performance, quality of the core system, hardware acceleration, and all the other core functionality stuff that makes a mobile OS strong. Not forgetting they'd need a 3rd party to do productivity apps?? And remember under WebOS Oh my we wait for how long for a productivity app???

I find it a bummer that HP had to dump Webos .... redevelop it into OWS and pretty much mess up the whole webos ecosystem. If they'd just refreshed the hardware with the Pre 3 design, I think they could have substained the marketshare - while getting the OWS out the door with a 2 prong approach. As it is right now, without any new hardware.... devs are leaving because of lack of clarity / revenue potential and mobile users are just moving to IOS and Android....
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Old 10/14/2012, 07:05 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Who will maintain OpenWebOS? HP or Gram?
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Old 10/14/2012, 09:22 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Who will maintain OpenWebOS? HP or Gram?
I think it'll be Gram
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