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Old 10/15/2012, 08:23 PM   #41 (permalink)
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The Pre3 is/was a business phone, it was never destined for great market share. Everyone talked about Apple/Google/WP being targets but truth be told, the Pre3 was the phone that could've caused serious woes for RIM. If it were updated for today, it wouldn't take much to make it into what businesses want.

With that in mind, I support eblade's statement because HP were determined to market these items as competitors to Apple, which they weren't.
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Old 10/16/2012, 12:45 AM   #42 (permalink)
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There is no thing like "business phone" anymore. And if there is still business phone category, Pre 3 wouldnt fit. Don't get me wrong, I like how it looks, but state of business apps for webOS is pretty bad.
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Old 10/16/2012, 12:56 AM   #43 (permalink)
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I see what our company uses. I watch what our partners in other companies use.
I see iPhones and Samsung-Droids mainly.

Business phone? That distinction went meaningless with the smartphone generation which had an App Store/Catalog/Shop that was full of programs and therefore full of possibilities.

Once every smartphone of the marketleaders had basic PIM abilities and could be used with a companies network and exchange, there was nothing more special that made it a "business smartphone".
RIM was specialized on "business" smartphones and look how good they do...

The Pre3 never had a chance, but not due to hardware problems (and there are a few) or due to OS problems. It was due to marketing-problems that started even back with Palm resting on their "marketleader-laurels" and afterwards continued in HP's leadership and marketing problems. From bad pricing of the predecessor devices (you don't sell a Touchpad for the price of an iPad) via lack of adverticing (****ing off mobileproviders don't do you good) down to straight nonsense in distribution (in some countries the WebOS devices were not even offered) made this enterprise a failiure from start.
Sorry to say so. Palm started the downslide and HP dutyfully ended it.

Now it's the communities turn. And WOW, see how they take the matter in their hands.
LunaCE, more and more Ports of OWOS to different devices (even Intel based ones).
Great stuff. This might even tend to arouse interrest of one or the other hardware producer.
Now it would be nice to have a fully working example to show. Something with HW-acceleration and a working AppCatalog.

The AppCatalog is the other millstone, holding back the OS. The question is, how do you get people into creating apps for the catalog? Apps are the fuel to our WebOS-Ferrari. We need alot of it.

I am playing around with an idea about that and maybe you can make something out of that:

There are a lot of phonegap (and now enyo) apps out there, being built for Android and iPhone, yes?
Well, phonegap and enyo both have the ability of building apps for webOS, without too much trouble AFAIK.

Maybe we need some sort of community based comittee or group (like webos-internals/webos ports) that undertake following steps:
1) find out what apps have been created with phonegap/enyo and make a list
2) contact the developers, asking them if they would consider biulding their app for WebOS and putting it in Preware or the AppCatalog
3) offering assistance or even some kind of incentive (like a little contest, where the developer with the best App-Port gets some goody as a price).

As I said, these are just ideas I play with. Probably some will rip it apart on first sight (to those I say: ok, then deliver a better idea about filling the Appcat), some might find the idea appealing or find something to make better about it and some even might know a way to put it to existence.
So I just put the idea up for discussion here...
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Old 10/16/2012, 03:27 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Buddy1969 View Post
...

The AppCatalog is the other millstone, holding back the OS. The question is, how do you get people into creating apps for the catalog? Apps are the fuel to our WebOS-Ferrari. We need alot of it.

I am playing around with an idea about that and maybe you can make something out of that:

There are a lot of phonegap (and now enyo) apps out there, being built for Android and iPhone, yes?
Well, phonegap and enyo both have the ability of building apps for webOS, without too much trouble AFAIK.

Maybe we need some sort of community based comittee or group (like webos-internals/webos ports) that undertake following steps:
1) find out what apps have been created with phonegap/enyo and make a list
2) contact the developers, asking them if they would consider biulding their app for WebOS and putting it in Preware or the AppCatalog
3) offering assistance or even some kind of incentive (like a little contest, where the developer with the best App-Port gets some goody as a price).

As I said, these are just ideas I play with. Probably some will rip it apart on first sight (to those I say: ok, then deliver a better idea about filling the Appcat), some might find the idea appealing or find something to make better about it and some even might know a way to put it to existence.
So I just put the idea up for discussion here...
I think that's a good idea. PhoneGap does provide a gallery of apps that have been created using their software. Its not an exhaustive list, but its a start.

PhoneGap | Apps
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Old 10/16/2012, 08:15 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by chalx View Post
There is no thing like "business phone" anymore. And if there is still business phone category, Pre 3 wouldnt fit. Don't get me wrong, I like how it looks, but state of business apps for webOS is pretty bad.
?
We use the Pre3, Pre2 and Veer for business, have been using for years.
They work great for calls, let us see our emails and look up contacts or things on the web simultaneously; also tether if we end up traveling in a place with limited or no wifi (rip-off hotels, I'm looking at you).
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Old 10/16/2012, 12:09 PM   #46 (permalink)
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You proved my point - all those things today you can do with Nokia asha line of dumbphones.
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Old 10/16/2012, 01:01 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Business phones generally require full PIM, VPN, Exchange support, plus (and this is what normally shows a business phone) a physical keyboard which acknowledges the tradition for business phones to be used for emailing, but with the power to do more on the go.

RIM are a business phone company but have trouble letting go of that in their non business devices, kinda why they are failing.

Had we seen the windsorNot phone then webOS could (would?) have had a better chance
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Old 10/16/2012, 04:08 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by xandros9 View Post
any chance is better than the almost zero we have right now.

IMHO, i think they need would need to focus on the software, the Pre3 is still mid-range-ish.
What do you consider a low-end phone, out of curiosity?
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Old 10/16/2012, 04:24 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by chalx View Post
There is no thing like "business phone" anymore. And if there is still business phone category, Pre 3 wouldnt fit. Don't get me wrong, I like how it looks, but state of business apps for webOS is pretty bad.
I've been using a Pre3 for a few months now. My honest opinion, aside from it's processor speed, it's just not a very good device. Hopefully someday we'll be able to try Open webOS on them, and see if the rash of issues are more software or hardware, but I wouldn't really recommend the Pre3, the Pre2 or Pre+ seem to work much better, with 2.2.4, but I can't live at those processor speeds.
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Old 10/16/2012, 04:57 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I've been using a Pre3 for a few months now. My honest opinion, aside from it's processor speed, it's just not a very good device. Hopefully someday we'll be able to try Open webOS on them, and see if the rash of issues are more software or hardware, but I wouldn't really recommend the Pre3, the Pre2 or Pre+ seem to work much better, with 2.2.4, but I can't live at those processor speeds.
I've been using a webOS phone now since the Pre was released. I had to import them my self into Australia as they were never launched here. I now have a Pre3 (AT&T) and my partner has one too (European). There is one annoying issue for me, which only happens in Australia, which is a reboot. My partner is Japanese and wishes they had Japanese language support. However, those two issues aside most people I show the phone to think it is great, and there was a lot of thought that went into the phone and the UI.

Wave is brilliant! Everyone loves that
How often do you see people taking photos of themselves? And the Pre3 has the mirror on the back! Simple, but brilliant!
Just the way everything is integrated with Synergy

Yes it is slow (now), but not unusably.

Pair it with a TP (I have the 4G) and it's all great news!

Yes I'm a fan.... but a fan for a good reason.
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I am an HP Employee. I am not associated in anyway with the development of webOS or associated devices. Opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not in any way represent HP or Palm in any official manner. Any implications derived from my posts are the result of my own point of view and do not indicate any intention or evidence of past, present or future activity or plans of the aforementioned HP or Palm.
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Old 10/16/2012, 05:33 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Well, the first primary function of a phone - being a phone - barely works on the Pre3. The DTMF generator doesn't work right, so it's very difficult to use telephone menu systems, frequently, I have been getting mine into a state where it will throw up the "missed call" banner, then start ringing, but the call was already missed, so it can't be answered. And after almost exactly two weeks total of using it as a telephone rather than just a portable internet device, the microphone has crapped out on mine.

Add to that the absolutely abyssmal battery lifetime, and that pretty much makes it something i would be totally against going into production, unless these, and the other problems people have had, were fixed.
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Old 10/17/2012, 03:58 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Yeah... especially the stock kernel does very strange things on Pre3 and also the Veer.... they allow it to go as low as 100Mhz which leads to you waiting seconds for the screen to come back in certain situations. Don't know why they do that, but I'm sure the "missed call" issue which I regularly suffered from comes from that. It get's much better if you use govnah to set the minimum speed to 300Mhz or so.

The low Mhz numbers won't even help battery life a lot... usually with the mobile CPUs its more sane to do stuff fast and then idle instead of doing stuff slow (i.e. 100Mhz ) and be in full power state a long time, even if your "full power state" is less power in the lower speed ranges than in the higher speed ranges it still is more power than idling.

They did do very much wrong, if you ask me... The sluggishness of the stock devices really is bad as hell. You can't really sell them... especially the Pre3 is close to unusable in stock mode.

Coming back to the topic, here is what I came up with:
From what I read and what I think and feel, their idea is to create more customizable business phones... i.e. you are a BIG company and need a line of business phones for your employees to use. For some reason (like "Your system administrator is sane" or something) you won't allow iPhone or Android and Blackberry is bankrupt (we're talking about the future, aren't we? )... then Gr.am would just buy some hardware, put webos on it and try to customize it to your needs.
The main point for us would be that they don't distribute general phones for a broader public. So only the company that ordered a professional version of webOS and did the service contracts can buy additional phones with their version of professional webOS on it.

Maybe I did get something wrong there (can't really find where I got that idea from)... But I think there is some demand for that. That's how it is done in the professional software business all the time. You buy some server, have some generic middleware plattform stuff (like SAP or ORACLE) and then create something on top of that for the needs of one certain customer. You get a lot of money for the customization and you get contracts to continue development and service. You could do that with phones also. And there is nobody who really does that with phones, right now...

Anyway it is good news that they have some plan and are trying to get people for gram and developing stuff. It means someone is investing money into webos and this really helps development of an operating system.
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Old 10/17/2012, 05:01 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Current state of Blackberry is best sign in which direction mobile industry is going. There is no more strict boundary between consumer and business devices.
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Old 10/17/2012, 05:05 AM   #54 (permalink)
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@ eblade, Garfonso,

what you've shared about the Pre 2 and Pre 3, showed how much HP/Palm management, developers, hardware designers know about the target market they're trying to get into. YES Palm was an incumbent in the mobile market during the haydays of the Palm OS. They sat on their laurels and didn't reinvent themselves..stuck themselves on the Palm Treo series..while the competitor leapfroged them in terms of design, concept, technology, performance. And remember at that time, Palm OS had a huge following of developers....looked at what happened?? Their main mistake - breaking the OS from the hardware (maybe) thinking other companies like SONY would expand the marketspace?.. while Palm themselves stuck to their tried Treo model. By selling the OS away, it prevented them to reinvent the OS and they were too late with WebOS and now late again with OWS.

BUT if HP had actually stuck it through with Pre 2 and later Pre 3 models, upgraded the webos, and maintained the ecosystem and used it as a stop gap to OWS --- it might not have been that bad, but this is on hindsight. They could have just refreshed Pre 3, with faster processor, more memory and also battery life - would have kept the existing base happy and prevented jumpship of developers.

However if they're gram thinking of selling the idea to corporations..they can forget it cause now the IN THING is the BYOD..bring your own device..
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Old 10/17/2012, 09:09 AM   #55 (permalink)
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I have a pre3 as a main phone too and i can live fine with it, had a android phone for a short time (with far better specs, got it with a new contract) and sold that again after 2 month because i still used my old pre 3
Guess im kinda stuck on webos :P

Anyway, talking about the pre3. I think it was and is still a very good phone but the specs are just low-end in the end of 2012. But it still works fine with WebOS. The software is really the problem with this device, 2.2.4 for the pre3 is full of bugs and problems that i cant see on my girldfriends veer. Many things could be fixed with patches but some are still there and annoy me (Wifi problems). The Pre3 could have been a awesome phone if HP would have just looked at the community for once, besides fixing the OS and adapting it right for the hardware. What is annoying me that in webos2.2.4 on my pre3 i still have to rely on patches for basic things that hp/palm should have integrated years ago... and on 2.2.4 some important patches are also missing (Alarm on specified weekdays for example).
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Old 10/18/2012, 08:01 AM   #56 (permalink)
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I used a Pre3 for over a year as main phone, too and with patches and modifications it is ok to use... but with stock 2.2.0 or 2.2.4 it is a real pain....

right now I'm again at my Veer for different reasons, main reason is that my Pre3 has now multiple cracks in its body and is failing apart fast.... But I must say I love my Veer. Was a big mistake to switch over to the Pre3 only for processor speed... :-P

@daexpression:
Yes, BYOD is a big thing in some companies, from what I read, especially in the US... but it's also a thing most system administrators hate and as stuff gets worse, this hate will grow. In Germany there are only few companies that allow BYOD, most forbid it (and none really encourage it). Many system administrators here are longing for homogeneous solutions that they can customize to their needs. I think you could easily sell them open webOS devices.
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Old 10/18/2012, 11:20 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Hmm, I have used my Pre3 as my only phone for over a year with no real issues (stock kernel). DTMF can be a little temperamental but not if you use the physical keyboard (something to do with the face detector I think which disables the whole touchscreen if it thinks you are holding it to your face during a call). I have not had any problems with missed calls as far as I can remember and the battery lasts me a full day (6:30am-9pm) unless I am using it heavily and I have a touchstone at work to deal with those cases.

It may not be state of the art these days but I love the form factor, build quality and OS so I will be sticking by it for as long as I possibly can. It's a shame there are some minor OS bugs that have not been fixed but that is not surprising in the circumstances. Maybe OWOS will one-day fix that but probably not before it appears for some other hardware that will take my fancy.
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Old 10/18/2012, 12:34 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Under frequent usage mostly email and twitter, my Pre3's battery is dead in 4 hrs, maybe 5 if I knock it down to 300MHz before going on. I've -seen- a full charge to dead in 2 hours before, although it's usually closer to 4.

The DTMF is quite bad from the physical keyboard as well, at least with Google Voice, and with Comcast. I've seen some systems where it seems to work perfectly, but the two that I'm mostly connected to it hardly works at all. Have to hold them down for several seconds, then release, for each tone to go through.. and then it only sometimes goes through, and sometimes it will repeat several times.

Hoping that a full Doctor will somehow magically fix my mic problem.
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Old 10/18/2012, 04:33 PM   #59 (permalink)
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you guys are making me want to get pre3 and drop my nexus...ugh!

but in regards to gram, some seem to only be thinking phones(as much as i would love that), Open webOS could be use for many different things, conference rooms a/v systems, universal remotes, lighting systems, kiosks(malls, hotels, airports, car rentals...etc) car systems(infotainment systems w/ multi controls on headrests for the rear passengers)

just had a pretty sweet futuristic idea about just touch panels in it self and webos could be utilized in w/ especially if we had the touchstone v2 tech.(knowing which touchstone its one..different exhibition scenario)

future: most surfaces are interactive(mirrors, table/counter tops, hell the walls, fridge doors) and can all be connected

so phone on touchstone next to bed, alarm goes off and your "morning" apps load, you have it preset to send the latest news app to your mirror in the bath room, and what ever news channel(s) to the shower.

dressed and ready to roll grab phone of touchstone and it knows to close the news app, but keep the tv app goin while you listen to the news on your way to the kitchen for breakfast, tv app may even follow you on the wall or something. in kitchen place phone on another touchstone, and it launches another set of apps(weather, remember the milk(checks smart fridge) stocks, agenda). time to go to work, cause it is the work profile you are using and closes all apps.

in car touchstone launches its apps(music, navigation(for traffic avoidance, not because you dont know your way to work), trapster, and some cheap fuel(gas, electric, hydrogen, arc reactor(you got yours 1/4 life left on it) and youre off

oh i love to my imagination

oh and if in the car you have multiple screens you can be controlled individually or w/ the master head unit(i think thats possible now...hmm, been a while since i messed w/ car a/v)
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Old 10/18/2012, 06:30 PM   #60 (permalink)
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so phone on touchstone next to bed, alarm goes off and your "morning" apps load
I like this idea, maybe a patch could be made to the alarm clock function to allow this to happen, although handling the snooze function could be a little complex.

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in car touchstone launches its apps(music, navigation(for traffic avoidance, not because you dont know your way to work), trapster, and some cheap fuel(gas, electric, hydrogen, arc reactor(you got yours 1/4 life left on it) and you're off
This may be closer than you think
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