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Whitman: No new HP smartphone coming in 2013
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Old 10/09/2012, 12:47 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by chalx View Post
my understanding is that Open WeboOS isn't targeted to any specific platform. By it's nature, as touch oriented OS, it could be used on phones, tablets, kiosks or any present or future touch controlled devices, but not limited to them.
Nailed it.

Again, please don't quarrel over my points. I made (as I believe) a valid argument. CGK made his. There is no quarrel in that, just an exchange of opinions. Just because CGK doesn't believe in new WebOS smartphones doesn't make him "the enemy"
Heck, even I don't believe in new WebOS Smartphones. WebOS will be an option, a fallback scenario and maybe even a kiosk software, but I don't believe it will be more.
What we will see in the near future is a few ports to Android devices and those ports will be implemented by our heroes here in the community (WOI/WebOSPorts)

The really interesting question for me is, what will happen to the "profiles" and "appcat". Will HP keep those services alive and if so, how long? I would like Meg to give us some info on that...
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Old 10/09/2012, 01:21 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by VaPirate View Post
This idea commonly kicked around that webOS has failed from the beginning is simply wrong. It's launch indeed showed that there was tremendous opportunity and acceptance. See the following link for a discussion of 1st Q results after launch of Pre - Palm F1Q10 (Qtr End 8/29/09) Earnings Call Transcript - Seeking Alpha

Penetration in all markets, including enterprise, exceeded expectations. If you do a simple google search you will find why webOS failed - almost immediately the hardware was being returned at a rate of 40% or more due to defects. It is incorrect to say webOS failed - PRE failed, and took webOS down with it. webOS was, on it's own, doing very well and well regarded. We all know the cash crunch that inhibited Palm and its hardware, but that is different than saying this is a failed software.

You and others contend that HP can't afford to develop webOS. I say they can't afford not to.

HP has a choice - die a slow death or allocate the resources to be truly relevant in mobile. HP earnings are taking a huge hit, but they can still go out and drop $10B on overvalued companies like Leo did. Their revenues are still huge; few business generate the cash OR earnings of HP. For the fiscal year ending last Nov they had EBITDA of over $14B! A $500M price tag for a product launch is something that is certainly manageable and even prudent if they have a strategy to move into Mobile.

Of course there is no guarantee of webOS turning a profit, much less a significant profit. But there is little reason to think that HP can ever bust into the market with either Android or Win. There are simply too many competitors and quicker movers.

Why does MS keep trying to bust the mobile market? How much money have they lost over the years with little result? They would probably say the money was not wasted, it was necessary for the future of MS, and now they may finally be seeing results. They were in a marathon and not a sprint (got that Leo?), and understood the absolute necessity of staying in the race - their future depends on it. The same is true for HP, except their words not withstanding, they were in a short sprint and then dropped out of that as well.

webOS executed properly, committed to like MS is committed to it's mobile, was the best choice for their future. Veer and Touchpad (I have both) can hardly be considered a "try" by HP. Given their decisions, I'd say there is a reasonable chance HP may not be around in 10 years.
you're free to believe whatever misguided revisionist version of history you like. Bottom line is people didn't buy the products they offered. Pre, Pixi, Pre 2, in enough numbers to turn a profit.

But you link an earnings report article but fail to point out that that quarter Palms loss was widening. That is they were losing more money then before. Palm lost $161m on sales of $68m. Not only that in the following months things didn't improve. Sell through fell off a cliff and they had backlogs of product. You're confusing have a good month or two launch with having every month of great sales. that didn't happen. You act like Palm was doing great. Palm had $68m in revenue but that was a decline from the prior year Q1 of $366.9m. So no they were not doing well. They were making less money then the year before. They in fact took a bigger loss then the prior year. The prior year they lost $39.5m. That year Q1 2010 the loss grew to $161m. Palm Slashes Mobile Platforms: What Exactly Is Its Problem? - Seeking Alpha

Earnings: Palm’s Outlook Still Uncertain Despite Selling 810,000 Smartphones In Q1 — paidContent

You can couch it anyway you want or blame hardware. Bottom line is their business was they weren't selling enough devices to keep their company afloat. Palm was failing to the point that it had to get sold. that's not success. That's failure. They don't make webos phones anymore. That's failure. the fact that they paid to much for autonomy doesn't make webos profitable or continuing to waste money on it a sensible idea. And by the way Autonomy was when they bought it. it wasn't going to fail. That's the difference it helped. Palm hurt their bottom line.

And saying they need to be in mobile doesn't mean there is any interest in webos as a mobile solution. The idea that there is huge interest in webos is simply in the minds of the people that like webos. It's not in reality. People believe it cause it makes them feel good.
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Old 10/09/2012, 02:39 AM   #63 (permalink)
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and don't tell me about "penetration of markets" ... Palm didn't even offer the devices in all of europe.

It was never WebOS and even if the first Pre's hardware was a tad unreliable, it wasn't even the hardware why Palm failed.
It was marketing.
And HPs error was en error in judgement all over. They tried to sell the touchpad for the price of an iPad and wondered, why nobody would buy it. But WebOS was never cancelled, they just burnt its home, the hardware, to the ground.

But we all know what went wrong and in retrospect it is always easy to know.
[rant]
Problem is, HP didn't learn a lot from it. Now they are sitting between two chairs, a PC market that declines and a mobile market they can't get hold of, because of bad product politics and idiotic decisions.
At least, even if 5 to 10 years late, HP found out, that there is a mobile market and that it is the future. And instead of releasing a smartphone and tablet ASAP (best: yesterday), Meg says "eventually" ...

Mhm ... eventually HP might survive that...


Having a perfectly working mobile OS on the shelve? Hiring personel for that OS?
Fine.
Building a Win8 tablet and droid phones?
Not the best idea. Look at the market! Do you thing YADP (yet another droid phone) is something the people want or need?

Or might it be an alternative that is direly needed?
Not that you, dear HP, haven't missed that train as well already. FirefoxOS and MeeGO are already steaming on, while you still stand on Platform 9 3/4 and scratch your head...

Good governance, wise leadership, solid decisions and a firm strategy ... they all look different to what HP does.

But if a company can't learn from their mistakes, they will surely pay a bitter price. I don't care really, I am just sad, that WebOS is one of the victims of that heap of incompetence that calls itself a company.
[/rant]

Sorry for the rant ... sometimes it's good to vent a little steam
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Old 10/09/2012, 03:38 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SnotBoogie View Post
you're free to believe whatever misguided revisionist version of history you like. Bottom line is people didn't buy the products they offered. Pre, Pixi, Pre 2, in enough numbers to turn a profit.

But you link an earnings report article but fail to point out that that quarter Palms loss was widening. That is they were losing more money then before. Palm lost $161m on sales of $68m. Not only that in the following months things didn't improve. Sell through fell off a cliff and they had backlogs of product. You're confusing have a good month or two launch with having every month of great sales. that didn't happen. You act like Palm was doing great. Palm had $68m in revenue but that was a decline from the prior year Q1 of $366.9m. So no they were not doing well. They were making less money then the year before. They in fact took a bigger loss then the prior year. The prior year they lost $39.5m. That year Q1 2010 the loss grew to $161m. Palm Slashes Mobile Platforms: What Exactly Is Its Problem? - Seeking Alpha

Earnings: Palm’s Outlook Still Uncertain Despite Selling 810,000 Smartphones In Q1 — paidContent

You can couch it anyway you want or blame hardware. Bottom line is their business was they weren't selling enough devices to keep their company afloat. Palm was failing to the point that it had to get sold. that's not success. That's failure. They don't make webos phones anymore. That's failure. the fact that they paid to much for autonomy doesn't make webos profitable or continuing to waste money on it a sensible idea. And by the way Autonomy was when they bought it. it wasn't going to fail. That's the difference it helped. Palm hurt their bottom line.

And saying they need to be in mobile doesn't mean there is any interest in webos as a mobile solution. The idea that there is huge interest in webos is simply in the minds of the people that like webos. It's not in reality. People believe it cause it makes them feel good.
Well, you can attempt to twist what I said all day long as far as I'm concerned, but I will restate my point. 1st Q of release the Pre, Palm revenues jumped to $360M, ~850000 units shipped, ~825000 sale through. Operating loss was $.10 a share, down from $.40 loss the previous Q. Initial sales and mkt penetration exceeded projections. I was clear that financial performance was for 1st Q, and that subsequently the Pre failed. No one disputes the Pre failed. Nearly all attribute the failure to hardware. But it is incorrect to say, as you have, that webOS has never had any success. What is a fact is that webOS has NEVER had competent or desirable hardware to determine acceptance.

I never said that HP should adopt webOS because there is significant interest in webOS as a mobile solution, there isn't. I said HP has a choice to make that is going to determine if it has a future. It can go mobile or not, and if it goes mobile what space are they going to occupy. My opinion - if they don't go mobile they're dead; if they go mobile w/Android or Win they'll never generate the revenue or margin that you, yourself, claim they need to make.

What HP currently has is a ton (but shrinking) cash flow. HP also has an almost universally praised OS with patents for total protection. You seem to think HP can t afford and would be foolish to go "all in" on webOS. I think they can very definitely afford it and are foolish for not going all in. HP currently has the cash, the OS, the worldwide market, and enterprise to invest in perfecting webOS and developing competent and desirable hardware.

I assume, this time last year you must have thought MS foolish to continue investing in WIN mobile? HP, if it wants to be a player in the future must be a leader. MS understands this, HP does not- I do not expect HP to build around webOS, I think they are foolish and would advise anyone owning HP stock to sell as HP has poor long term prospects w/ such poor vision.
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Old 10/09/2012, 06:52 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Buddy1969 View Post
and don't tell me about "penetration of markets" ... Palm didn't even offer the devices in all of europe.

It was never WebOS and even if the first Pre's hardware was a tad unreliable, it wasn't even the hardware why Palm failed.
It was marketing.
And HPs error was en error in judgement all over. They tried to sell the touchpad for the price of an iPad and wondered, why nobody would buy it. But WebOS was never cancelled, they just burnt its home, the hardware, to the ground.

But we all know what went wrong and in retrospect it is always easy to know.
[rant]
Problem is, HP didn't learn a lot from it. Now they are sitting between two chairs, a PC market that declines and a mobile market they can't get hold of, because of bad product politics and idiotic decisions.
At least, even if 5 to 10 years late, HP found out, that there is a mobile market and that it is the future. And instead of releasing a smartphone and tablet ASAP (best: yesterday), Meg says "eventually" ...

Mhm ... eventually HP might survive that...


Having a perfectly working mobile OS on the shelve? Hiring personel for that OS?
Fine.
Building a Win8 tablet and droid phones?
Not the best idea. Look at the market! Do you thing YADP (yet another droid phone) is something the people want or need?

Or might it be an alternative that is direly needed?
Not that you, dear HP, haven't missed that train as well already. FirefoxOS and MeeGO are already steaming on, while you still stand on Platform 9 3/4 and scratch your head...

Good governance, wise leadership, solid decisions and a firm strategy ... they all look different to what HP does.

But if a company can't learn from their mistakes, they will surely pay a bitter price. I don't care really, I am just sad, that WebOS is one of the victims of that heap of incompetence that calls itself a company.
[/rant]

Sorry for the rant ... sometimes it's good to vent a little steam
Good to see another HP (that is Harry Potter, not the other HP) here
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Old 10/09/2012, 07:24 AM   #66 (permalink)
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regardless of how palm was money and sales before HP aquired them, weren't HP then supposed to give them the support required? Most reports I read a while after the apothaclypse quite clearly stated that palm were still treated as something alien to HP with minimal internal support.

There is also the fact that the touchpad wasn't a palm device, it was a HP Android device, modified with touchstone and webOS inserted, as far as I can read into the facts and stories that drifted our way much later, it seems only the Pre3 and TouchpadGO were "proper" palm devices, and I don't think I've seen as many dis-satified reports when compared to touchpad ones.

The Pre3/TouchpadGO also didn't get to really launch at all, I wonder the reactions if they had actually sold first, then if they failed over time then they would only then deserve many of the anti posts dotted around the net.

neither officially sold so imho palm didn't fail, it was all HP.
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Old 10/09/2012, 07:28 AM   #67 (permalink)
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and don't tell me about "penetration of markets" ... Palm didn't even offer the devices in all of europe.

It was never WebOS and even if the first Pre's hardware was a tad unreliable, it wasn't even the hardware why Palm failed.
It was marketing.
Exact. Here; in Brazil, the last Palm device in stores was the Palm Centro...


Best Regards...
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Old 10/09/2012, 07:59 AM   #68 (permalink)
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It is clear that there are differing points of view in this discussion. Let's keep the discussion free of personal comments about those differences, please.
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Old 10/09/2012, 02:43 PM   #69 (permalink)
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There is also the fact that the touchpad wasn't a palm device, it was a HP Android device, modified with touchstone and webOS inserted, as far as I can read into the facts and stories that drifted our way much later, it seems only the Pre3 and TouchpadGO were "proper" palm devices, and I don't think I've seen as many dis-satified reports when compared to touchpad ones.

The Pre3/TouchpadGO also didn't get to really launch at all, I wonder the reactions if they had actually sold first, then if they failed over time then they would only then deserve many of the anti posts dotted around the net.

neither officially sold so imho palm didn't fail, it was all HP.

Just to clarify a little from my experience and what I have read (not disagreeing).

Pre and Pixi were all Palm
Pre2 was all Palm and a much improved device
TouchPad as we know was an HP design prior to Palm acquisition

From what I have heard TouchPad Go had at least some HP involvement in it (maybe some Palm influence) but it is weird that I have heard some reports of the cracking of the case. Seeing the other TP designs I have to believe personally that the Go was in some form of development prior to Palm but that maybe some Palm design queues were added in the pre-production process. This is a tough one though due to the nature of the devices that people did get their hands on... we can't guarantee that every example was meant to be a packaged retail example (as the TP 4G and Pre3 were).

Now here is where I really differ from you....

Pre3 and Veer. I believe these to be Palm designs with the enhancement of HP's R&D backing. The Pre3 and Veer have vastly different keyboards than Palm designed devices as well as changes to the overall design. This could just be because of HP's muscle (and cash) when it came to RnD and design, but then again HP didn't do great with the TP design so who knows where the various pieces fell on this.

Pre3 and Veer have a very similar build to eachother and vastly different from the previous Palm designs this is why I think HP had their paws in them to some point. We saw that Palm could do decent hardware with the Pre2 (which was built prior to Pixi public release so clearly a Palm design and build).

The one other possible contributor is that the TP as designed was never supposed to be released... Leo pushed it out to give the "reason" to kill the brand and blame the loses on it's short comings while spending company equity to pickup the software company he wanted to own.


In the end most of us will never really know, beyond what was certainly designed and built by Palm. If any of those that do know would like to add input I am all ears, even if not publicly, feel free to send me a PM.
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Old 10/09/2012, 03:16 PM   #70 (permalink)
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The following were Palm Products Pixi, PixiPlus, Pre, PrePlus, Pre2, and Veer.

All models start with P like for Verizon PixiPlus P121EWW, PrePlus P101EWW and Pre2 P102EWW. AT&T Veer P160UNA.

Pre3 and Touchpad were both HP devices with HSTN Models, Verizon Pre3 HSTN-F30CV, Touchpad WiFi HSTNH-I29C, 4G HSTN-I30C.

This has also been validated by FCC filings, Pre3 and Touchpad were filed by HP, all previous models were submitted by Palm.

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Old 10/09/2012, 03:25 PM   #71 (permalink)
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HP must have had something to do with final retail design on the Veer though. It is too much like the Pre3 to be all Palm....

But maybe that's just the tooling/suppliers used by HP vs. Palm since retail units clearly were manufactured made after HP acquisition.
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Old 10/09/2012, 03:29 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Just my observation from the tear down of the Veer, all parts have Palm all over it, the only HP branding is the HP on the back of which it seems to be popular for removing...

HP also started branding webOS with webOS 2.1.0, before that version all others were Palm. WebOS 2.2.x is where they really started with a HP webOS Account, instead of a Palm Profile.

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Old 10/09/2012, 03:44 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Good points, if that points to it being a Palm build, it makes the original Pre's very sad (even though ours held up, the quality of Pre2/Veer/Pre3 is so much higher than the Sprint Pre).

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Old 10/09/2012, 03:53 PM   #74 (permalink)
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The build of the PrePlus was good, at least mine is still rocking for 3 years now, but as they got further into slider devices they learned from the previous devices. The PrePlus had a USB door issue, removed USB door on Pre2, the screen from plastic to Gorilla Glass and better graphics chips, better WiFi chips... They refined as the went on... Now would have loved the Windsor or WindsorNot both from the pictures were the new Pixi design... With or without keyboard...
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Old 10/09/2012, 04:11 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Anyone out there still using an original Pre as their everyday phone?
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Old 10/09/2012, 04:25 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Anyone out there still using an original Pre as their everyday phone?
There is a guy at work I have seen many of times sporting the Palm Pre on Sprint, goated him a few times about upgrading him to a Pre2, but he says webOS 1.4.5 and his Pre does all he needs...

If the Verizon Preplus did not have twice the memory, 16G of flash, I would switch to my Pre2, but with webOS 2.2.4, and mashed PrePlus and Pre2 kernel going 800MHz, it seems fast enough for me, plus I get to keep my 5G of Free HotSpot...
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Old 10/09/2012, 06:32 PM   #77 (permalink)
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The build of the PrePlus was good, at least mine is still rocking for 3 years now, but as they got further into slider devices they learned from the previous devices. The PrePlus had a USB door issue, removed USB door on Pre2, the screen from plastic to Gorilla Glass and better graphics chips, better WiFi chips... They refined as the went on... Now would have loved the Windsor or WindsorNot both from the pictures were the new Pixi design... With or without keyboard...
Good point I never did handle a Pre+


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Anyone out there still using an original Pre as their everyday phone?
There is a chance the wife and I would still be but history would have had to have changed, and I would have needed a compelling reason to stay on Sprint. We had no reason to stay on Sprint and with Veers for a penny from Amazon I wasn't hanging around any long. Even if not for the Veer I think with fire sale and knowing everything I know we would have jumped to Straight Talk with Pre3s.

Wife has been on a Pre2 for well over a year now and I've had my Pre3 a couple weeks shy of a year. I have fired up the Sprint Pres to test some software and they still fire up just fine and have successfully tested Enyo Apps.
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Old 10/10/2012, 11:48 AM   #78 (permalink)
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The following were Palm Products Pixi, PixiPlus, Pre, PrePlus, Pre2, and Veer.

All models start with P like for Verizon PixiPlus P121EWW, PrePlus P101EWW and Pre2 P102EWW. AT&T Veer P160UNA.

Pre3 and Touchpad were both HP devices with HSTN Models, Verizon Pre3 HSTN-F30CV, Touchpad WiFi HSTNH-I29C, 4G HSTN-I30C.

This has also been validated by FCC filings, Pre3 and Touchpad were filed by HP, all previous models were submitted by Palm.
id only thought the GO was more palm then HP as i think i recall pictures of palm's name plastered over the insides of one from soem articles id read here, plus a few whod held one stated they liked it and it seemed a better device than the touchpad, so i'd assumed 1+1=palm.

The pre3 being mostly HP is more of a shame because i like the device a lot and it didnt get the chance to sell at all, abandoned on launch day, and the touchpad definatly was an android device beforehand but abandoned relativly quick as well.

1 device not given much time to get a foot in the door and one didnt even get the chance to be born into the mobile world, ive seen a few people mention that in europe / esp the UK that there was advertisements and a device push, i only know where i am i saw nothing until after or just before the TP firesale fiasco.

Also until the time i was specifically looking for a tablet that had "Amiga"ish tendancies/similarities, id not calapped eyes on a single webOS/palm device in most north east UK places id frequented or scottish places where i used to work for a good few years.

To find such a device (Touchpad at this time) and later aquire id had to research into it on the net, activly find such a retailer, which at the time i couldnt find a single one so ended up buying/pre-ordering from the HP/Palm store directly.
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Old 10/10/2012, 02:06 PM   #79 (permalink)
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id only thought the GO was more palm then HP as i think i recall pictures of palm's name plastered over the insides of one from soem articles id read here, plus a few whod held one stated they liked it and it seemed a better device than the touchpad, so i'd assumed 1+1=palm.

The pre3 being mostly HP is more of a shame because i like the device a lot and it didnt get the chance to sell at all, abandoned on launch day, and the touchpad definatly was an android device beforehand but abandoned relativly quick as well.

1 device not given much time to get a foot in the door and one didnt even get the chance to be born into the mobile world, ive seen a few people mention that in europe / esp the UK that there was advertisements and a device push, i only know where i am i saw nothing until after or just before the TP firesale fiasco.

Also until the time i was specifically looking for a tablet that had "Amiga"ish tendancies/similarities, id not calapped eyes on a single webOS/palm device in most north east UK places id frequented or scottish places where i used to work for a good few years.

To find such a device (Touchpad at this time) and later aquire id had to research into it on the net, activly find such a retailer, which at the time i couldnt find a single one so ended up buying/pre-ordering from the HP/Palm store directly.
Don't know about the Touchpad Go, never seen one in person, would love to have one if one was available and had a working doctor for it (which I could create if I had a backup source)... 7 inch is the sweet spot for most... I love the Touchpad (32G WiFi) for what I got it for (FireSale Price), I would have paid $250 for it but $599 or higher is crazy, I have tried to figure out the thought on this you can get a Laptop for $250-$300 that does tons more than a tablet will ever do (with more memory and hard/nand drive, etc..) but why would someone pay more for a tablet? I get the ipad, status symbol thought, but it is a consumption device nothing more nothing less. Even with my Touchpad's BlueTooth keyboard (which I love), it is great for typing documents (QuickOffice or Piscel), but there is not much else as most of the UI is touch. But would have loved a Touchpad Go with 4G.

Now love the Pre3 (mine is not activated), not sure why they had to multiply (screen scaling) the apps (x1.5), if you have a bigger resolution fit more on the screen not the same, I have tweaked my Pre3 removed the 1.5 scaling (have to remove it in the browser.conf and Luna.conf files) but most of the UI gets broken... (Work in progress), getting apps to work is not hard, but why must one force a screen to scale, the app's should have been re-written for the new screen, with better detail...

HP released it in the UK/EURO zone, but never in the USA, even though I have a Verizon Model, it has the same functionality as my PrePlus (minus the 5G HotSpot, although they did include Visual Voice Mail, but then they broke the Skype default and forced a downgrade to skype mobile...) I removed the download.ipkg so I have the full Skype..)...

Now I saw a ton of commercials for the Touchpad and for the Veer, none for the Pre3, but then again, I did not get the everybody on market ploy... The Veer is a cute phone, mine (AT&T non-activated unlocked), works great, to bad again the apps were not re-written to handle the better display/power, so I can run the Pixi versions of apps on it, would be better to have Veer Screen Scale down Pre apps then force one to Pixi apps (I have a Verizon PixiPlus cute candy bar MP3 device for me)...

Wish HP/Palm had the money/willingness to take a chance, but they seem to be living their dream of running the company into the ground, such a shame they had so much but did not know what they had... of course this is just my opinion...

Where would Palm be if they were not sold to HP, would they have gone bankrupt, would they still be here?
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Old 10/11/2012, 12:42 AM   #80 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by John Steffes View Post
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Where would Palm be if they were not sold to HP, would they have gone bankrupt, would they still be here?
Bankrupt.
Bad decisions, marketingfails and generally resting on their laurels brought them from market leader to "who's that?" status.
"Who's that?" status cost them their marketshares and therefore their money.
Having no more money forced them to sell the company.
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