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HP is doing the right thing -- Personal Opinion
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Old 08/06/2012, 02:14 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Im going to agree with @fxspec06. They made mistakes, and are now trying to make the best of a not so good situataion that they indeed put themselves in. There is a lot of work going on behind the scenes right now with both woce and openwebos there is a huge effort going on from both homebrew and hp right now, and there will be some kind of roadmap as to what expect after openwebos is released i am sure. Meanwhile my touchpad and pre3 work just fine for my uses...
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Old 08/06/2012, 02:50 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MDsmartphone View Post

Sure this is my biased opinion coming from a webOS phanboy, but obviously their stock has been taking a hit and their credit has been taking a hit as well. Many articles have commented on how HP is in trouble.

I agree.
You said the word: "phanboy". If you could just stop trolling and think twice you'd realize you & I buying (or not buying) a Fortune 500 company's product doesnt make difference. Lenovo or Apple dont have anything to sell to a customer like me, but...who cares? They are leading companies making ton of money every second.

Yahoo, RIM, Kodak? They are all one product centered companies. HP may depends on pcs and printers but dont forget their "other" businesses encountered for roughly 64 billion/y. They wrote down 2 billions loss from Palm adventure and were still profitable in 2011.
HP Services (36B/y revenue) : Multi years contracts with gov, large companies..
HP ESSN (22b/y revenue): Multi years contracts
HP Software(3B/y revenue): the same
And so on...
If hp decide to shut down all their consummer branches, they would still be a billion revenue company (profitability may even jump).
They could even live lavish just being patent troll with a 36000 patents portfolio.
And for the future don't worry for them: HP, Hynix to launch memristor memory 2013
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Old 08/06/2012, 03:48 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by PalmPixi_User23 View Post
The firing of Leo should not be on the list.....it doesn't count

I think that the rest of whatever you mentioned on the list, it could be attributed to the team of WebOS instead of HP. Because HP's brain is not that capable of doing that....so again I will say its more of WebOS team effort than HP.
HP payed for all of the hackathon and even payed Derek Kessler from our community to fly over to the hackathon.
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Old 08/06/2012, 05:28 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I am not too happy with HP's decision either, but well it's understandable. It's good to see they have moved to newest and more recent versions of Linux kernel and also incorporated QtWebkit. These are big things that shouldn't be underestimated.

Hardware supporting 3.3 kernel will become more widely available, don't worry about that.

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Old 08/06/2012, 05:43 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Vity Traff View Post
You said the word: "phanboy". If you could just stop trolling and think twice you'd realize you & I buying (or not buying) a Fortune 500 company's product doesnt make difference. Lenovo or Apple dont have anything to sell to a customer like me, but...who cares? They are leading companies making ton of money every second.

Yahoo, RIM, Kodak? They are all one product centered companies. HP may depends on pcs and printers but dont forget their "other" businesses encountered for roughly 64 billion/y. They wrote down 2 billions loss from Palm adventure and were still profitable in 2011.
HP Services (36B/y revenue) : Multi years contracts with gov, large companies..
HP ESSN (22b/y revenue): Multi years contracts
HP Software(3B/y revenue): the same
And so on...
If hp decide to shut down all their consummer branches, they would still be a billion revenue company (profitability may even jump).
They could even live lavish just being patent troll with a 36000 patents portfolio.
And for the future don't worry for them: HP, Hynix to launch memristor memory 2013
If you see my history on precentral you will see I am far from being a troll.

Big big big palm and webos fan who has seen hp literally destroy my beloved OS to pieces and continually make no effort to support their existing customers. Sure they may be supporting devs interested in open webos and enyo...but where does that lead? There is no hardware. There is no mention anyway of new phones. There is nothing mentioned about fixing carrier relationships. And worst of all there is no mention of supporting customers. Many of which have been palm loyalists and continue to be loyalists. We are left here now with our outdated devices and have to rely on the home brew community to possibly provide us with a new version if webOS

Re your statement about hp and that it will survive because of its other products....well good for them. But those have nothing to do with the mobile space. And absolutely nothing to do with webos. Where does webOS fit in that big picture? No where. Which is why when the original poster, a developer whom i have supported thru purchases of his apps and on posts on this website over the years, commented that hp was doing the "right" thing I just didn't get it. They may be doing the right thing about fixing the problem they compounded by destroying webOS and now trying to rebuild it in some fashion. But for what???
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Old 08/06/2012, 05:54 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by fxspec06 View Post
Disregarding the previous (and very long) history of HP, I'll assume you meant to ask what they've done right, so far, since their acquisition of Palm. With this in mind, here's my very brief and incomplete list of things they've done right:

* Firing of Leo Apotheker
* Hiring of ex eBay CEO Meg Whitman
* Reconsideration of every decision Leo Apotheker ever made
* Roadmap
* Sticking to the roadmap
* Hiring of more webOS developers
* Hiring of more Enyo developers
* Enyo
* Developer support (they treat us better than you think)
* Hackathon
* Hint at new webOS devices
* Enyo demonstrations worldwide
* Heavy promotion of Enyo
* Continuation of webOS Meetups

..and the list goes on.
they have not undone anything important however, yeah leos gone but that was due to shares plummeting, npt outrage at webos and hardware being dropped.

Meg also wasnt just hired out of the blue she was on the board during leos reign, only good thing shes done imho for us so far is opensourcing webos.

the hiring of more employees is somewhat moot considering the quantity of original palm/webos staff thats been axed in comparison.

I also only see them giving enyo/enyo2 a massive injection of life because its now able to run on android/ios etc, webos "support" now seems coincidental as a byproduct of devs making enyo apps for other OS's.

Where was new webos hardware mentioned, ive only seen hints at windows hardware with speculation our side for webos hardware.


the only REAL useful thing done for us specifically is opensourcing webos, absolutely everything else seems to serve their windows adventure with their new windows hardware which enyo2 will happily run on.

Id love more webos hardware but atm i can only see that happening via the community devs, HP's direction of late in my eyes is to keep enyo but to run it on everything else first, with webos support "maybe" later.

id love to see it all turn around i just cant see HP delivering tho beyond the opensourcing.
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Old 08/06/2012, 05:57 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Vistaus View Post
HP payed for all of the hackathon and even payed Derek Kessler from our community to fly over to the hackathon.
and the article mentioned some of those devs creating things on windows/ios which is where i fear the enyo direction HP will encourage most.
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Old 08/06/2012, 12:35 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MDsmartphone View Post
If you see my history on precentral you will see I am far from being a troll.

Big big big palm and webos fan who has seen hp literally destroy my beloved OS to pieces and continually make no effort to support their existing customers. Sure they may be supporting devs interested in open webos and enyo...but where does that lead? There is no hardware. There is no mention anyway of new phones. There is nothing mentioned about fixing carrier relationships. And worst of all there is no mention of supporting customers. Many of which have been palm loyalists and continue to be loyalists. We are left here now with our outdated devices and have to rely on the home brew community to possibly provide us with a new version if webOS

Re your statement about hp and that it will survive because of its other products....well good for them. But those have nothing to do with the mobile space. And absolutely nothing to do with webos. Where does webOS fit in that big picture? No where. Which is why when the original poster, a developer whom i have supported thru purchases of his apps and on posts on this website over the years, commented that hp was doing the "right" thing I just didn't get it. They may be doing the right thing about fixing the problem they compounded by destroying webOS and now trying to rebuild it in some fashion. But for what???
My statement abt HP other businesses was an answer to your assumption HP is not a leading company and they can only survive by producing webOS devices. We'd all like to see HP massively investing in webOS but let's be realistic. HP is not a relief organization, they're not there to please you or me. There main goal is to maximize profits for shareholders. Unlike you, I'm not a "phanboy", I dont love nor hate any company. I buy products that fits my needs.
The problem on this forum is your opinions are biased by your feelings. About HP doing things right(or not) evryone seems to forget few things:
1/ HP never reverse their last year plan to kill webOS device,
2/Even tought they promise commitment to openwebOS they never promised it would run on current devices, we were just hoping
3/Software upgrade is not even garanteed on supported devices bought at full price:
-I bought the HTC HD2 after double checking it was hardware compatible with winphone7, 3 months later MS decided it was not eligible for upgrade "due to lack of dedicated camera button"
-Lumia 900 owners will get update but not the shinny Winphone 8, Nokia promised
-There's a full list of Androphones that stayed stuck to Andro 2.0
-OP listed Windows as example of software upgrade but: upgrading from the previous to the newer Win version will cost you 99$ or higher. Until 7, each new version system requirement was the double of the previous. The majority of XP era PCs were not able to run vista
-Snow Leopard doesnt support PPC processors
-Even if each new iOS version supports older devices, Apple wont give them all the new features.

You stated webOS would have a better fate far from HP. Well webOS is still their property and Can you give me an open source project that succeed without backup from big organizations?

You're wondering what HP did right since their stupid decision from last year? They are just giving each month paycheck to ~300 high qualified engineers to open source an OS they've acquired 1.2billion in order to give it to the community. They have no obligation to do that. They could just have shut down the entire webOS unit and save on costs or sell it for peanuts to a patents hunter.
HP gave me enough reasons to ***** on them those last years but I recognize when the're trying to do things right or when they have no choice.
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Old 08/06/2012, 04:02 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I am not too happy with HP's decision either, but well it's understandable. It's good to see they have moved to newest and more recent versions of Linux kernel and also incorporated QtWebkit. These are big things that shouldn't be underestimated.

Hardware supporting 3.3 kernel will become more widely available, don't worry about that.

-- Sent from my Palm Veer using Forums
While I'm also nice to see that(don't get me wrong), but I will never understand its the reasons of HP discontinuing the support of older devices. One thing that causes me to get ****-off, its the ways that HP been cutting funds to the WebOS team forcing them to abandon the support of devices that are not even older than one year. The browser is broken, sound audio has a critical bug that we never see it fix, the little app development we have for TouchPad(will be abandoned to focus on never devices).....the list goes on for what's wrong with dropping support of new Open WebOS for TouchPad.

Like many people like myself, we start distrusting HP from the start with the future of WebOS. First, it was the news that Palm Pre+ and Pixi weren't able to get support for WebOS 2.0, while the community proved with a bit of effort and patience it was possible to port that new version of WebOS to those phones(Again HP cutting cost and corners, NOT NICE!!). Then, we get this unsettling news from "Stupid HP AGAIN", ****i-ing in our faces saying that due to the future and of course limited resources they had to focus on Open WebOS. Tha'ts a whole lot of boloney there, HP that company had tons of resources to accomplish this thing through, but instead you see the WebOS team been stripped off from resources and lay-off more than hundreds of team of engineers that could had made it possible to support new and old devices with this new Open WebOS. But of course, many people in this forum are blindly claiming that HP is doing things right....

Well, let me just say that its enough of HP mismanagement and silliness.....I'm not going to trust HP(with WebOS) again on any future devices that supports the Open WebOS v1.0, for them to say one year later than the new version of Open WebOS v2.0 won't be supported for devices that runs on v1.0. No way Jose, for me this devices that I currently owned are my last straw of devices of WebOS. Fool one person once or twice and shame on me, but fool me the third time definitely shame on you(HP).

Sorry, until WebOS team don't do like the Meego group which separated themselves from Nokia to formed a new company, I will say screw HP....
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Old 08/06/2012, 04:27 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Vity Traff View Post
My statement abt HP other businesses was an answer to your assumption HP is not a leading company and they can only survive by producing webOS devices. We'd all like to see HP massively investing in webOS but let's be realistic. HP is not a relief organization, they're not there to please you or me. There main goal is to maximize profits for shareholders. Unlike you, I'm not a "phanboy", I dont love nor hate any company. I buy products that fits my needs.
The problem on this forum is your opinions are biased by your feelings. About HP doing things right(or not) evryone seems to forget few things:
1/ HP never reverse their last year plan to kill webOS device,
2/Even tought they promise commitment to openwebOS they never promised it would run on current devices, we were just hoping
3/Software upgrade is not even garanteed on supported devices bought at full price:
-I bought the HTC HD2 after double checking it was hardware compatible with winphone7, 3 months later MS decided it was not eligible for upgrade "due to lack of dedicated camera button"
-Lumia 900 owners will get update but not the shinny Winphone 8, Nokia promised
-There's a full list of Androphones that stayed stuck to Andro 2.0
-OP listed Windows as example of software upgrade but: upgrading from the previous to the newer Win version will cost you 99$ or higher. Until 7, each new version system requirement was the double of the previous. The majority of XP era PCs were not able to run vista
-Snow Leopard doesnt support PPC processors
-Even if each new iOS version supports older devices, Apple wont give them all the new features.

You stated webOS would have a better fate far from HP. Well webOS is still their property and Can you give me an open source project that succeed without backup from big organizations?

You're wondering what HP did right since their stupid decision from last year? They are just giving each month paycheck to ~300 high qualified engineers to open source an OS they've acquired 1.2billion in order to give it to the community. They have no obligation to do that. They could just have shut down the entire webOS unit and save on costs or sell it for peanuts to a patents hunter.
HP gave me enough reasons to ***** on them those last years but I recognize when the're trying to do things right or when they have no choice.
I never said HP will not survive because they won't make webOS devices. I said they will be in trouble if they don't have a mobile plan...as of now what is that plan?

And I understand this enterprise thing fine but with consumers hp has never done well. Their products have been perceived as cheap. And with webOS they have left consumers hanging not once ( no webOS 2.0 support for "legacy" devices), not twice (discontinuing all webOS hardware), but three times (not bringing open webOS to their latest hardware). And despite what you assert some of these were not assumptions. They said webOS 2.0 would coke to the pre plus. They never stated webOS hardware would be discontinued after garnering more dev support for their touch pad launch (CBS,USA today, lexicomp, kindle,epicurious, weather bug,accuweather, rovio, quick office, and the countless great smaller webOS devs).

I read dereks article and have seen enda's tweets and totally understand why they made their latest decision...but the underlying tone is because they are short staffed and don't have the resources or man power to support the touchpad and other current devices they need to move on. But in the process they keep alienating even their biggest supporters. Once this open webOS thing comes to fruition, let's say HP does make some webOS hardware....where are they gonna get their consumers??? Who other than hackers and people that have time to play around with a backup device are going to purchase it? And if they don't release hardware but people can install it on the next nexus device, why would anyone do that if there are no apps or developer support?

So yes HP is making the "right" decisions now but only after they have burned all their bridges with carriers, developers, and at the end of the day, the most important player in this game...the consumer who buys apps to support devs and "advertise" HP products to their friends and family?
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Old 08/06/2012, 05:17 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I just posted this in response to the most recent article How do you feel about HP not supporting older devices in Open webOS? | webOS Nation, and I felt the need to share it further.

You know what: I'm cool with it. Why? Because I can comprehend what it takes to support something, and I understand that if they were to support those legacy devices, undoubtedly MAJOR sacrifices would have to be made where it really matters: real webOS.

The truth that it doesn't support legacy devices is not a fault to the current coders -- that's an original design flaw the original webOS failed to acknowledge.

Think about Windows: it supports all hardware from Windows 95 all the way through Windows 7.. you can upgrade from one version to the next without any problems. When webOS was first made, it never accounted for the various processors and other hardware it would eventually run on. In summary, it was never designed with future hardware in mind.

All I can hope is that this new open source route will account for this, and all future versions of webOS will have support for whatever legacy hardware it runs on. This will be difficult because of the current non standardized ARM processor market, but it will be no more difficult than it is for Google, Microsoft, or Apple.

If done correctly, this should be the last time we have to face this problem.

TL;DR: HP is doing the right thing. We don't want them to (literally) waste time supporting hardware that barely made it into the hands of anyone. We all want a better webOS. If you want a better webOS, this is the correct decision.
Makes sense except for the fact that there are NO devices open webOS runs on! And the only people that are out there that could possible keep the interest in any new device are the ones with legacy devices. Once you lose the owners of the Pre3's and TP's to android, HP can stand in line behind someone working on resurrecting the Amigia. Keeping the (dwindling) webOS users up to date and happy would at least give a user base to build off of when trying to sell open webOS to the marketplace.
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Old 08/06/2012, 06:57 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I never said HP will not survive because they won't make webOS devices. I said they will be in trouble if they don't have a mobile plan...as of now what is that plan?
Once again you're taking all this too personnally. If HP put themselves in trouble due to poor management, well I dont care (even tough I just threw few bucks on their shares and expect them back). And I dont think it's the consummer mobile that will save HP. If I was the CEO and had to choose areas where invest I'd rather put priority on sectors where HP has strengths: Entreprise infrastructure, cloud computing, big data and eventually a cross Platform OS.
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They never stated webOS hardware would be discontinued after garnering more dev support for their touch pad launch (CBS,USA today, lexicomp, kindle,epicurious, weather bug,accuweather, rovio, quick office, and the countless great smaller webOS devs).
Seems someone missed some chapters: HP Confirms Discussions with Autonomy Corporation plc Regarding Possible Business Combination; Makes Other Announcements
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the consumer who buys apps to support devs and "advertise" HP products to their friends and family?
You mean that kind of advertisement?
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Originally Posted by MDsmartphone View Post
what exactly will HP be selling to a consumer such as me, for example? snapfish photos? i'd purchase a dell or microsoft made surface tablet before I touch anything HP makes in an instant. HP printer? canon's printers are much better, for me.
.
And about commitement to loyal consummers I already told you it's only business. They will do it only if they feel they will have ROI. HP is not the first to do that and it's not the last.
-MS trashed WinMo diehards, the last who choose to support them even when people where laughing at them.
-RIM the venerable, one would think they will cherish their last loyal consummers . The next gen BB10 is not supporting BB7 devices
And those are companies with full teams working on their mobile Platform.
The Ongoing discussion is about openwebOS support for legacy devices, not about future hardware.
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Old 08/06/2012, 09:19 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Not supporting old hardware is fine as long as there is new hardware to move to. As I understand, currently there are very few, if any devices, that meet the criteria required for Open webOS. I haven't seen or heard anything that would suggest HP is making hardware or even if they have hardware partners.

The problem isn't the lack of support, the problem is the lack of a future.

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Well, true enough. But that's what HP probably is trying to do desperately - lining up some hardware partners before open WebOS is released. Not sure they will succeed but that's what open WebOS needs. If there are no takers, then HP will shut open WebOS down. They can't afford to waste the money. And this death will be final.
The small chance webOS has is the open source nature. Android is becoming a 2 OEM race- Samsung and motorola. HTC was a high flyer and between getting pounded by Apple in courts and Samsung in sales, it's in trouble. Nokia isn't doing too well with windows. Rim well.... Anyway, it's a long shot but a good webOS implementation is better than a crap 3rd tier android one at least in function. webOS despite very anemic app market has now better crossplatform developer tools like Enyo which lowers the barrier for developers. Why not make a enyo app for ios or android that coincidently works with webOS. It's a logical and well-reasoned strategy which has a slim chance of success.
Let's hope for the best.
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Old 08/07/2012, 01:02 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Guys, we can mourn HPs decision from last year all we want, it won't help. The damage was done. Period.
HP payed for it anyway.
And they still invest a bit of money into WebOS. Granted.

So that is the situation. This is the new starting point. OpenWebOS. Time to forget the past and look in the only viable direction, the future.

What I DO chalk up to HP is, that there is no visible strategy to
a) what will be done with OpenWebOS and
b) where is HP going to place themselves on the mobile market.
Because having a mobile OS on the shelve and producing some notebooks won't do. Not in the long run.

HP has still got enough juice (=ressources) to place themselves where they want to in that market, rather than being put in place by the market. They have all the assets they need, namely harware (they are one of the biggest HW producers in the world) and a mobile OS.
Why don't they use those assets?`

I personally think (and now I am reading tea leaves) it is a trust issue. Not only the customers lost a lot of trust over Leos errors, I think HP has lost a lot of trust in themselves and their abilities.
To me, HP seems to be in a fright-paralysis, like the rabbit in front of a snake.

So the question that it all boils down to for me is: can Meg shake up and wake up HP to get them back into the game? Is she the right one to do so? Will they come to their senses again and use the wonderful assets they have?
Is Meg able to give HP back it's Mojo (oh sorry, that's Enyo now) ?

*me pondering*
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Old 08/07/2012, 02:39 AM   #35 (permalink)
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I never said HP will not survive because they won't make webOS devices. I said they will be in trouble if they don't have a mobile plan...as of now what is that plan?
All of your precious mobile devices wouldn't even work without all of the back end servers and services. Guess who is #1 in both of those markets now. HP could completely stop making anything for end consumers and still be a multi-billion dollar per year company. The more things go mobile and to "the cloud" the better the servers and services businesses will become.
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Old 08/07/2012, 06:24 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Seems like there are a lot of people here that want to defend HP.

They are doing nothing right in my opinion with consumers. They may have reversed their decision to spin off the personal systems group but it doesn't matter because the market will do it for them anyway. When was the last time anyone has heard if anyone being excited about purchasing an HP product?

To get back to the core of the original post, HP is saying we don't really care about older webOS devices, we don't have the resources to "waste" time on supporting them...we will leave it to the "community" to figure out how to support the older devices...we don't care that there is a dwindling user base and developer support for webOS that will get even smaller with this decision...and we haven't announced a plan for the future of webOS because we don't have one.

Sorry, my hard earned money is now, not being wasted on anything HP makes.
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Old 08/07/2012, 02:17 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I have to say that I cannot agree with this. I understand their restrictions in staff and time to re-write all copyright code to open source. Yes their webOS division shrunk and I understood about the v2 versus the v3 devices, however they still have hold of all Palm patents and they do OWE something back to us.

I did not buy my Touchpad to keep for ever, but when they announced webOS Open Source they let us all assume that they will release all of the OS and we all assumed that we will be have the community to build it for use on the tablets. Of course things changed etc etc but my point still remains. They bought Palm and shut it down. For me there is no excuse. It is a company that has no 10yr vision and really they should stick to just making hardware which also sucks.

I have never bought (nor will) a pre-made pc dell/compaq/hp etc (and I don't do laptops) and I have had HP printers in the past that were rubbish. Canon is my best choice for printers/scanners etc. So HP lost me as a client FOR EVER and they have to REALLY suck it up to me since the burried Palm !!!!

The fact that they will not support Touchpad for open webOS was the tombstone for me on HP !!! I will never ever evererererererererer buy an HP product ever again....

Vas

PS Palm still lives in my heart and I hope one day they somehow come back...
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Old 08/07/2012, 09:39 PM   #39 (permalink)
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And from the front page, in the words of the editor in chief if this website: If you're going to do something, make it matter | webOS Nation
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Old 08/08/2012, 07:44 AM   #40 (permalink)
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HP has still got enough juice (=ressources) to place themselves where they want to in that market, rather than being put in place by the market. They have all the assets they need, namely harware (they are one of the biggest HW producers in the world) and a mobile OS.
Why don't they use those assets?`

I personally think (and now I am reading tea leaves) it is a trust issue. Not only the customers lost a lot of trust over Leos errors, I think HP has lost a lot of trust in themselves and their abilities.
To me, HP seems to be in a fright-paralysis, like the rabbit in front of a snake.
I think you could really be on to something here. They messed up big time and know it, and so are afraid to step out boldly and make a big play again. Maybe no one is willing to put their neck on the line for webOS. You know the way big corporations work - you have to sell your plan to all the right people, get the money for it approved, push everyone to implement it right, and then pray the market responds in the way you expected. Because if it doesn't, the career advancement prospects of you and some of your supporters take a hit, you and your supporters even face getting the axe if the failure is big enough, and the shareholders get upset over lost money and failure to succeed and go out looking for blood. It could well be that there are clued in folks in HP who know what needs to be done and have a plan, but aren't prepared to personally take on those risks.

Me, I'm personally a go big or go home, anything worth doing is worth overdoing kind of guy, but I can understand the paralysis. The question is, will they overcome it in time to make a difference, or will they delay until webOS miss it's last chance for a comeback?
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legacy, open webos, right vs wrong

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