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Old 08/03/2012, 04:31 PM   #41 (permalink)
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For what it's worth, the Touchpad didn't sell. More time in the marketplace would have changed this in what way?

Sales decreased weekly, retailers were about to return unsold stock.
I have typed this before, I believe that was because of the price, $600 for a tablet is way too much, when a sub notebook/netbook is $250 at the time.

I do not know the right price, but when the price was $150 for the 32G I jumped and got one...
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Old 08/03/2012, 04:49 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I have typed this before, I believe that was because of the price, $600 for a tablet is way too much, when a sub notebook/netbook is $250 at the time.

I do not know the right price, but when the price was $150 for the 32G I jumped and got one...
The Touchpad was the same price as most of the other tablets and less than others.

Selling Touchpads at $99 and $150 to get buyers is the exact reason to be out of the tablet business.
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Old 08/03/2012, 06:02 PM   #43 (permalink)
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For what it's worth, the Touchpad didn't sell. More time in the marketplace would have changed this in what way?

Sales decreased weekly, retailers were about to return unsold stock.
For what it is worth the obverse is also not provable... And that's my point.

The tablet was not sold as a retail unit long enough to draw sales model conclusions from. PERIOD.

Statistics, logic and philosophy of science reveals the data has no statistical relevance for inclusion in logical argument building applying inductive or deductive reasoning. It's an extremely skewed sample that can not be trusted as a basis for real world application or hypothetical modeling.

If I sold ham and cheese sandwiches from a stand on a corner near a McDonalds for a month and then stopped could it logically be applied as a universal constant that consumers do not like ham and cheese sandwiches and will refuse to buy them?
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Old 08/03/2012, 06:10 PM   #44 (permalink)
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The Touchpad was the same price as most of the other tablets and less than others.

Selling Touchpads at $99 and $150 to get buyers is the exact reason to be out of the tablet business.
I think the right price for a non-iPad 10 inch 32GB WiFi only tablet should be about $350 - $400, about $300 for a 16GB, and you have to have the ecosystem, performance, battery life, features, weight and feel right. If you can't make a refined product and sell the hardware at those kind of price points and pass break even when you factor in additional revenue from the apps, content and accessories, then I don't see how you really compete with the iPad right now. Looking at Samsung, they're probably the only real competition the iPad has in the 10 inch form factor and they're getting creamed at their current price point ($399 for 16GB). They probably can't price lower than they are at now though, since they don't have their own ecosystem and that revenue goes to Google.
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Old 08/03/2012, 06:44 PM   #45 (permalink)
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For what it's worth, the Touchpad didn't sell. More time in the marketplace would have changed this in what way?

Sales decreased weekly, retailers were about to return unsold stock.
See, that's an interesting thing. It's mostly bull****, that just keeps getting thrown around and around and around. First off, the TouchPad was either #2 or #3 in individual tablet models, prior to the fire sale. There was practically zero market whatsoever for any tablet at that point in time, other than the iPad. If you were Apple, you were selling a million of them a month. HP sold, what, 100,000 of them? In the 48 days the TouchPad was an active product, they likely sold as many TouchPads as practically all other non-iPad tablets - but Apple sold ten or more times that many.. In the next 60 days following, of course, it was the most common tablet that wasn't an iPad, period, until the Fire came out.

The other thing is, Best Buy usually doesn't have the ability to just send stuff back to the manufacturers if they feel it isn't selling. They can either continue to store it, or they can eat the price on it. They don't get the option to send several pallets of stock back. I suppose they -could- send it back, but it's not like the vendor is going to just give them credit for it.
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Old 08/03/2012, 07:05 PM   #46 (permalink)
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The other thing is, Best Buy usually doesn't have the ability to just send stuff back to the manufacturers if they feel it isn't selling. They can either continue to store it, or they can eat the price on it. They don't get the option to send several pallets of stock back. I suppose they -could- send it back, but it's not like the vendor is going to just give them credit for it.
This is an untrue statement. In most cases the product is on a 60 to 90 day billing and absolutely stock can be returned. Best Buy doesn't deal in one way sales unless it is a blowout like the fire sale Touchpads.

Last edited by rnld; 08/03/2012 at 07:12 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 08/03/2012, 07:10 PM   #47 (permalink)
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For what it is worth the obverse is also not provable... And that's my point.

The tablet was not sold as a retail unit long enough to draw sales model conclusions from. PERIOD.

Statistics, logic and philosophy of science reveals the data has no statistical relevance for inclusion in logical argument building applying inductive or deductive reasoning. It's an extremely skewed sample that can not be trusted as a basis for real world application or hypothetical modeling.

If I sold ham and cheese sandwiches from a stand on a corner near a McDonalds for a month and then stopped could it logically be applied as a universal constant that consumers do not like ham and cheese sandwiches and will refuse to buy them?
What you are saying does not hold water with point of sale barcode scans and retail ship numbers. If you are in any business that sells at Best Buy, you would understand this.

The other thing you are claiming is the Touchpad was selling well and everyone simply decided to lose a ton of money by selling at fire sale prices.
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Old 08/03/2012, 07:24 PM   #48 (permalink)
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As an interesting aside, went into my local Best Buy today and saw that they've now removed the Blackberry Playbook from their shelves - they were still trying to sell them when I last went in there maybe 2 weeks ago. Not sure if this is a company wide decision to stop carrying it or not???
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Old 08/03/2012, 07:59 PM   #49 (permalink)
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This is an untrue statement. In most cases the product is on a 60 to 90 day billing and absolutely stock can be returned. Best Buy doesn't deal in one way sales unless it is a blowout like the fire sale Touchpads.
While possible, the only retail outlets that I'm positive do something like that are large grocery store chains -- where they don't actually pay for merchandise until they sell it. I'd sincerely doubt the sanity of any electronics supplier that agreed to that sort of a deal, considering the infinite shelf life, yet continuously falling pricing.

(although I truly do not know exactly how it works at Best Buy, I did spend 12 years in the consumer electronics business, so I do have a pretty fair knowledge of how most places did things through 2005 when I hit major burn out, and severed all ties to that world )
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Old 08/03/2012, 08:01 PM   #50 (permalink)
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The iPad 2 1 million on launch day and sold around 2.5 million in it's first month. 11.2 million were sold in the 3rd quarter of 2011.
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Old 08/03/2012, 08:12 PM   #51 (permalink)
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The iPad 2 1 million on launch day and sold around 2.5 million in it's first month. 11.2 million were sold in the 3rd quarter of 2011.
Exactly. And no one else, even if you start combining numbers, is coming even remotely close to that. Basically, there was no other tablet market. There was a market for iPads specifically. HP needed to spend some time to build that market. Everyone else needed to spend some time to build that market. Amazon has been spending time building that market. I fear for what little tablet market there is now, as the vast majority of consumer sales are likely in the "Is this an Android iPad for $60?!!?" category. While there is your Google Nexus, which is pretty damn decent (I got to play with one a bit on Wednesday), there's a huge, huge, huge lot of complete and total junk out there, that consumers are going nuts over right now, and they're going to feel burned by tablets as a whole. It may take a few more generations of products before the bottom of the barrel becomes something that isn't complete junk.
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Old 08/03/2012, 08:14 PM   #52 (permalink)
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While possible, the only retail outlets that I'm positive do something like that are large grocery store chains -- where they don't actually pay for merchandise until they sell it. I'd sincerely doubt the sanity of any electronics supplier that agreed to that sort of a deal, considering the infinite shelf life, yet continuously falling pricing.

(although I truly do not know exactly how it works at Best Buy, I did spend 12 years in the consumer electronics business, so I do have a pretty fair knowledge of how most places did things through 2005 when I hit major burn out, and severed all ties to that world )
You are trying to make a point that all was fine at retail land and HP just decided to lose a ton more money on the Touchpad.

There was a huge ad campaign, the huge expense of being featured in the Best Buy Circular and a pretty big shipment of product as shown by the amount of fire sale units sold.

Best buy took a large shipment based on advertising, the leverage HP had with the computers and printers in store and HP believed they had a winner.

It was a huge stiff just like some movies.

If you don't believe Best Buy can return product as one of your former job buddies.
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Old 08/03/2012, 08:17 PM   #53 (permalink)
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My disclaimer is I do not own an iPad. But it does what buyers want it to do.

People talk about Apple fans, yet many, many, many iPad owners are people with PCs.

It has the features that are attracting buyers. That's not magic or advertising, it a successful product
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Old 08/03/2012, 09:22 PM   #54 (permalink)
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For what it is worth the obverse is also not provable... And that's my point.

The tablet was not sold as a retail unit long enough to draw sales model conclusions from. PERIOD.

Statistics, logic and philosophy of science reveals the data has no statistical relevance for inclusion in logical argument building applying inductive or deductive reasoning. It's an extremely skewed sample that can not be trusted as a basis for real world application or hypothetical modeling.

If I sold ham and cheese sandwiches from a stand on a corner near a McDonalds for a month and then stopped could it logically be applied as a universal constant that consumers do not like ham and cheese sandwiches and will refuse to buy them?
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Originally Posted by rnld View Post
What you are saying does not hold water with point of sale barcode scans and retail ship numbers. If you are in any business that sells at Best Buy, you would understand this.

The other thing you are claiming is the Touchpad was selling well and everyone simply decided to lose a ton of money by selling at fire sale prices.
Read my statement again. Which words exactly correspond to what you claim I said?

I'm addressing the point that the sales model for touchpad is not an adequate sample from which valid data can be drawn. It was quickly made a canceled and unsupported product due to a board level decision to discontinue the OS and attendant hardware. The sample is inherently flawed and drawing out the minimal amount of time the product was available under full corporate support and marketing efforts to equate as performance under a multi-quarter effort of promotion, and coordinated OEM/retail merchant joint efforts at achieving market penetration is flawed logic based on use of suspect data. Whether you argue for or against touchpad.

My statement has nothing to do with what you erroneously claim I have said.

If you are going to quote me please take the time to understand what I have written rather than just making something up and trying to claim I have said it.
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Old 08/03/2012, 10:16 PM   #55 (permalink)
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You are trying to make a point that all was fine at retail land and HP just decided to lose a ton more money on the Touchpad.

There was a huge ad campaign, the huge expense of being featured in the Best Buy Circular and a pretty big shipment of product as shown by the amount of fire sale units sold.

Best buy took a large shipment based on advertising, the leverage HP had with the computers and printers in store and HP believed they had a winner.

It was a huge stiff just like some movies.

If you don't believe Best Buy can return product as one of your former job buddies.
I should have made it clearer in my post that I was doubting it, not that I was saying it unequivocally. My apologies.

In any case, HP apparently was expecting apple sales levels, where there was almost no market whatsoever. To some, second or third place to a product selling 10 or 20 times more would be a dismal failure, but considering the state of the market at the time, it should have been championed as an incredible success.

Add to that apparently Leo wanted to eliminate the hardware departments anyway, and there is the perfect storm of insanity.


-- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities
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(1:39:33 PM) halfhalo: Android multitasking is like sticking your fingers into a blender
GO OPEN WEBOS!
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Old 08/04/2012, 12:12 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Read my statement again. Which words exactly correspond to what you claim I said?

I'm addressing the point that the sales model for touchpad is not an adequate sample from which valid data can be drawn. It was quickly made a canceled and unsupported product due to a board level decision to discontinue the OS and attendant hardware. The sample is inherently flawed and drawing out the minimal amount of time the product was available under full corporate support and marketing efforts to equate as performance under a multi-quarter effort of promotion, and coordinated OEM/retail merchant joint efforts at achieving market penetration is flawed logic based on use of suspect data. Whether you argue for or against touchpad.

My statement has nothing to do with what you erroneously claim I have said.

If you are going to quote me please take the time to understand what I have written rather than just making something up and trying to claim I have said it.
I absolutely understand the point you are trying to make.

You simply refuse to consider anything beyond your own personal narrative.

Everything has to be figured in. HP way over shipped product, retail bought into the hype and it was a blood bath after 6 weeks. The iPod 2 was in the market selling like crazy and no company continues advertising when a product falls way short of expectations with nothing that shows it can turn around - even this early in the game.

HP was not a mobile phone company and bought a failing brand that had continually decreased in sales year by year to not even being a player. The consumer had moved on.

The Touchpad wasn't an HP staple and weather they needed a tablet or not, this turned out to be the wrong one to back.

For your scenario to work, out of the blue, one day "leo" comes to work and says "I know what to do here - Let's dump the #3 selling tablet and lose a ton more money than we already have on buying Palm."

There was a reason for the fire sale in that selling these units at a huge loss was cheaper than paying for shipping for returns and having a building full of Touchpads.
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Old 08/04/2012, 12:23 AM   #57 (permalink)
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I should have made it clearer in my post that I was doubting it, not that I was saying it unequivocally. My apologies.

In any case, HP apparently was expecting apple sales levels, where there was almost no market whatsoever. To some, second or third place to a product selling 10 or 20 times more would be a dismal failure, but considering the state of the market at the time, it should have been championed as an incredible success.

Add to that apparently Leo wanted to eliminate the hardware departments anyway, and there is the perfect storm of insanity.


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I understand the emotions in of all this.

HP did not do a rollout that was based on 30K to 75K units sold worldwide over 6 weeks. It was dismal even if it was 100K.

I understand we differ here - but it was the retailers that pulled the plug and HP decided not to double down. They had lowered the price by $100 plus $50 rebates and everyone yawned.
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Old 08/04/2012, 12:28 AM   #58 (permalink)
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There was a huge ad campaign, the huge expense of being featured in the Best Buy Circular and a pretty big shipment of product as shown by the amount of fire sale units sold.
Incorrect. There was a ban on advertising the TouchPad in electronic store's circular mails until a certain date. I don't remember the exact date anymore but I remember finally seeing the TouchPad advertised in circulars right around the time webOS was cancelled. All stores across the nation sold out of fire sale units in minutes. How many could there possibly have been if that happened?

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Old 08/04/2012, 01:10 AM   #59 (permalink)
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I absolutely understand the point you are trying to make.

You simply refuse to consider anything beyond your own personal narrative.

Everything has to be figured in. HP way over shipped product, retail bought into the hype and it was a blood bath after 6 weeks. The iPod 2 was in the market selling like crazy and no company continues advertising when a product falls way short of expectations with nothing that shows it can turn around - even this early in the game.

HP was not a mobile phone company and bought a failing brand that had continually decreased in sales year by year to not even being a player. The consumer had moved on.

The Touchpad wasn't an HP staple and weather they needed a tablet or not, this turned out to be the wrong one to back.

For your scenario to work, out of the blue, one day "leo" comes to work and says "I know what to do here - Let's dump the #3 selling tablet and lose a ton more money than we already have on buying Palm."

There was a reason for the fire sale in that selling these units at a huge loss was cheaper than paying for shipping for returns and having a building full of Touchpads.
You absolutely do not display any understanding of the point I am making.

You simply continue to misrepresent what I've said based on your own personal narrative.

You refer yet again to a 6 week period as if it were a long term effort that has validity as a parallel to months or years long business paradigms.

Where did I ascribe motive or impetus to the Apotheker decision? I only mention it as being the key factor which makes use of Touchpad sales corrupted data for making comparisons.

Please continue on your way and cease pretending that you are replying to my actual words as opposed to putting words in my mouth to further your own agenda in this discussion.
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Old 08/04/2012, 01:31 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Incorrect. There was a ban on advertising the TouchPad in electronic store's circular mails until a certain date. I don't remember the exact date anymore but I remember finally seeing the TouchPad advertised in circulars right around the time webOS was cancelled. All stores across the nation sold out of fire sale units in minutes. How many could there possibly have been if that happened?

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The Touchpad was the the front page of the Best Buy Circular on July 17 with a full top page ad on the 2nd page with details and accessories.

It was in the Staples Circular as well.

Do you not remember all the TV advertising? Russell Brand, Miranda Cosgrove, Manny Pacquiao and Lea Michele?

This site loved the ad posted on June 30 with Russell Brand (he did many versions)
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