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What do YOU expect of Open webOS?
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Old 07/28/2012, 07:59 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Well I hope they remove all the lag. Full hardware acceleration of the UI/apps would be really good, like Android's project butter.

Do I expect it? Not really.
on a similar note, I'd like someone to figure out and fix why the Pre3 has such a high load average all the time. My Pre2 runs great on 2.2.4, but on the Pre3 it runs ok some times, but is dog slow at other times, even with Uberkernel.
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Old 07/28/2012, 08:17 PM   #62 (permalink)
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If what is rumored to happen in US, all carriers have suggested they are going to stop subsidizing the phone, then the carrier and OEM all make a profit...

FYI One has to switch to Verizon's share everything, if they want to get a subsidized phone, a bunch of groups already did the math. Seen many articles (on MSNBC) cheaper to buy a phone out right and pay month to month, then buy a subsidized phone with the new plan.
Not happening. If it did, smartphones would revert to where they were before the subsidization. Only people with a lot of disposable cash would purchase their phones. The overwhelming majority are only willing to shell out around $100 or so for smartphones with the exception of the iPhone and the occasional high end Android phone. If they were full price, only the iPhone would sell, mostly due to a large portion of their clients tending to have larger pools of disposable income.

Quite frankly, people would swarm to update their phones as soon as they could to get a smartphone and hang onto them as long as possible. It would essentially tank the smartphone market.
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Old 07/28/2012, 08:35 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rnld View Post
But why WebOS? Nobody outside of HP has been able to see what Open WebOS is. We do know they have a small crew and interns working on it.

Maybe it will be great, maybe not.

To get a major maker of smart phones to move to a platform with an app store that is years behind the big 2 is a hard sell.

How is more money made with WebOS than Android?
I'm going to answer this question and your other one before this.

First, during much of 2009, smartphone numbers were in the 20 million range, with the bulk being BB's. They're in the 110-130 million range now. Big difference.

As to the question I quoted above, Android phone makers don't make any money off the app store as it is. They make money from selling their phones either direct or to the carriers. They have a BOM cost combined with their overhead, plus all licensing costs (they have to pay MS just to run Android). If the phone they are trying to sell is $200 in their costs and another $15-20 in licensing fees, they need to be able to sell the phone for more than $215-220 to make any money off the phone. If the carrier is only willing to give them, say, $225 and their cost is $220, they'll only make $5million in profit for every 1 million phones sold. That's probably just barely enough to stay in it. But if the carrier says, we'll only by you phone for $220, and you've already sunk all the upfront costs into the development of the phone...now you aren't making any money.

Now, what if that same phone had $0 in licensing costs, and the carrier was still willing to pay $220? Now you can make $20million on 1 million smartphone sales. Big difference. Right now, Samsung and Apple are the only two phone makers being able to sell their phones to the carriers at a cost high enough for them to make strong profits. Everyone else is barely profitable or losing money. When you throw in the possible losses in lawsuits against Apple, that puts a strain on your planning for future projects and what you can expect to pass on to share holders. The stock market hates uncertainty and that can greatly effect your stock price, hence your capitalization, and hence your ability to raise capital to stay in business. You need to be making enough money to reinvest in this business, while also being able to pay your share holders. If you stop the investments, you'll be passed by, and eventually forced out of the market.

Right now OEM's are clearly looking for a winning alternative. WP8 appears to be their first choice. But if it doesn't take off...well...they'll be in trouble. Even Samsung, though, is putting money into WP8 phones. Even they know the issues with Android. They are hedging their bets with 2 possible options in the future. HTC, LG, and Sony are really in a bind right now. HTC is getting hammered by all the court costs and the fact they can't get the premiums for their phones. If Open webOS comes out and is solid, fixes the speed issues, and Enyo gets enough developer attention (such that it will be obvious that developers can quickly port Enyo apps back to webOS and drive the app store numbers up) then I think you'll see some serious consideration by a few of these guys.

Android got all of these players because it was supposed to be a free OS, or at least very little cost. It has turned into a high cost OS just from the licensing fees to MS alone. webOS still has a shot. It's a slim one, no doubt, and it kind of relies on either WP8 failing, or enough OEM's deciding that Android isn't cutting it and they don't want to put all of their eggs in WP8, an OS that also costs money to license. Unlike the other alternatives out there, webOS has had some mild initial success. Palm just couldn't pump out better and more diverse hardware fast enough to take advantage. Android got all of the hardware momentum.

We'll see what happens in the next few months. I'm not holding my breath, believe me. But I do realize that a shot exists. I hope webOS gets one last chance.

Last edited by falconrap; 07/28/2012 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 07/28/2012, 09:49 PM   #64 (permalink)
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But why WebOS? Nobody outside of HP has been able to see what Open WebOS is. We do know they have a small crew and interns working on it.

Maybe it will be great, maybe not.

To get a major maker of smart phones to move to a platform with an app store that is years behind the big 2 is a hard sell.

How is more money made with WebOS than Android?
To state it once again, I'm not expecting or predicting anything for webOS at this point.

But it would be worth considering if you are an OEM.

Yes the App store is 2 years out of date and not as large as others, but it is there. An instant beginning. And ACL may go some way toward closing that gap. It sure beats starting from scratch. Relying on Google Play to help sell your phones as being more capable is not a compelling argument for sticking with Android when it costs you money to do so. Every Android phone has the same App base. ACL promises to apply that base to every existing mobile OS.

The OS itself offers a twofold savings. The Open Source release will be 4th generation. That's 4 generations of R&D and 3 generations of real world field testing and refining the OS and UI. That's waaaaay ahead of starting an OS from scratch. Time and Money wise. And it's Open Source. That means no Licensing Fees - like you would pay to Msft for Win Phone. That's a huge step ahead in functionality at a reduced cost from other alternatives.

Are companies looking at OSwebOS as a strategy? I have no idea.

Should they? I think if they are smart they will.

But you have failed to answer any of my questions. Are they supposed to somehow start making money with Android? How?

If not - are all those companies in mobile supposed to just walk away or go bankrupt?

If they are to stay in mobile and make money, how do you see them doing that? Paying licensing fees to software companies? Starting new Operating Systems from scratch?
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Old 07/28/2012, 11:47 PM   #65 (permalink)
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20 million? Global smartphone sales in 2008 was 139 million.
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Old 07/29/2012, 04:39 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RumoredNow View Post
I'm not expecting anything directly related to webOS either...




However, I don't expect that the following OEMs will unanimously decide they will walk away from mobile or just quietly go out of business: Nokia, Motorola, Sony Ericsson, LG, HTC, RIM, Huawei, Acer, Asus, Dell, Alcatel, Sharp, Toshiba, Pantech, ZTE, Blu, Gigabyte, Kyocera, Lenovo, Meizu and countless others.

Seriously CGK what makes you constantly assert that all these companies will simply give up or die in the marketplace?

Are you saying there is only room for Apple and Samsung?
Within the next three–five years yes, - RIM is finished and will not exist as a separate company by the end of 2013, Nokia will go the same way but it might take a little longer. Motorola will *never* pick webOS, Sony-Ericsson does not exist. As for the others, they simply could not finance the ecosystem and on-costs on such a risky proposition, and even if they could, the OS is the cheap bit and if they were going to go down that road better to have their own proprietary OS rather than take on an aging project that failed so badly in the market that even the company behind it is unwilling to put out devices.

There is simply no evidence that anyone is interested in WebOS within your conjunction - simply your wishful thinking. Even you ever come across any indicators pass them on, and otherwise you are trying to bring down clouds by throwing your shoes at them.



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Old 07/29/2012, 08:49 AM   #67 (permalink)
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20 million? Global smartphone sales in 2008 was 139 million.
I wasn't talking global. And I don't count Symbian (sorry, I just don't).
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Old 07/29/2012, 08:53 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Within the next three–five years yes, - RIM is finished and will not exist as a separate company by the end of 2013, Nokia will go the same way but it might take a little longer. Motorola will *never* pick webOS, Sony-Ericsson does not exist. As for the others, they simply could not finance the ecosystem and on-costs on such a risky proposition, and even if they could, the OS is the cheap bit and if they were going to go down that road better to have their own proprietary OS rather than take on an aging project that failed so badly in the market that even the company behind it is unwilling to put out devices.

There is simply no evidence that anyone is interested in WebOS within your conjunction - simply your wishful thinking. Even you ever come across any indicators pass them on, and otherwise you are trying to bring down clouds by throwing your shoes at them.



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Why do you continue to come here and pass off your gloom and doom? You've moved on with you devices. Why not in your talks?

Of course, you have a serious flaw in your last statement. Nobody, I mean NOBODY, is going to start up their own OS at this point. It costs a ton of money to start a new mobile OS from scratch. You assertion that webOS was a failure in the market place fails to understand that the failure was to keep the initial momentum going with more and better hardware, and not the OS itself. Until HP pulled the plug early, the TouchPad had become the second best selling Tablet. They probably could have sold a couple million by just lowering the cost to $350 and $400 for the two main models. The problem has always been limited hardware, the quality of the hardware, and poor marketing drive at the carrier. It has never been the OS. If webOS ever got the carrier push that Android did, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
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Old 07/29/2012, 09:42 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Not happening. If it did, smartphones would revert to where they were before the subsidization. Only people with a lot of disposable cash would purchase their phones. The overwhelming majority are only willing to shell out around $100 or so for smartphones with the exception of the iPhone and the occasional high end Android phone. If they were full price, only the iPhone would sell, mostly due to a large portion of their clients tending to have larger pools of disposable income.

Quite frankly, people would swarm to update their phones as soon as they could to get a smartphone and hang onto them as long as possible. It would essentially tank the smartphone market.
I get people do not look at the long term cost. Just up front, but if they review they pay $2000 a year for a $600 phone. (I am on my phone so I don't remember the exact numbers.)
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Old 07/29/2012, 11:51 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Within the next three–five years yes, - RIM is finished and will not exist as a separate company by the end of 2013, Nokia will go the same way but it might take a little longer. Motorola will *never* pick webOS, Sony-Ericsson does not exist. As for the others, they simply could not finance the ecosystem and on-costs on such a risky proposition, and even if they could, the OS is the cheap bit and if they were going to go down that road better to have their own proprietary OS rather than take on an aging project that failed so badly in the market that even the company behind it is unwilling to put out devices.

There is simply no evidence that anyone is interested in WebOS within your conjunction - simply your wishful thinking. Even you ever come across any indicators pass them on, and otherwise you are trying to bring down clouds by throwing your shoes at them.



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And once more you avoid answering what you believe all these OEM companies will do or why you think they will all just go out of business without trying new strategies.

The big failure for webOS was a temper tantrum over board infighting. A certain CEO decided that HP would get out of mobile despite the previous leadership purchasing Palm and ramping up development costs on top of the $1,200,000,000.00 cost of acquiring Palm. Some knucklehead threw a fit and sabotaged HP's mobile strategy - possibly in an effort to get canned and ride a golden parachute straight into his off-shore bank account.

That's not a failure inherent in the OS. That's a failure in leadership at the corporate level.
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Old 07/29/2012, 12:17 PM   #71 (permalink)
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I wasn't talking global. And I don't count Symbian (sorry, I just don't).
You are moving the goal posts to try and fit it into your narrative.
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Old 07/29/2012, 12:20 PM   #72 (permalink)
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And once more you avoid answering what you believe all these OEM companies will do or why you think they will all just go out of business without trying new strategies.

The big failure for webOS was a temper tantrum over board infighting. A certain CEO decided that HP would get out of mobile despite the previous leadership purchasing Palm and ramping up development costs on top of the $1,200,000,000.00 cost of acquiring Palm. Some knucklehead threw a fit and sabotaged HP's mobile strategy - possibly in an effort to get canned and ride a golden parachute straight into his off-shore bank account.

That's not a failure inherent in the OS. That's a failure in leadership at the corporate level.
The OS had been in the marketplace since 2009. The interest in WebOS was over. The Touchpad was a stiff.

Why do people try to rewrite history?
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Old 07/29/2012, 12:38 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Until HP pulled the plug early, the TouchPad had become the second best selling Tablet. They probably could have sold a couple million by just lowering the cost to $350 and $400 for the two main models. The problem has always been limited hardware, the quality of the hardware, and poor marketing drive at the carrier. It has never been the OS. If webOS ever got the carrier push that Android did, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
The Touchpad did not become the #2 seller until the fire sale prices.

HP had dropped the price to $399 for the 16 gig and there were some $50 off sales on top of that.

If you agree with the marketing plan or not, the TV spots ran heavy at launch withe celebs doing the spots. The Touchpad awareness campaign was huge and expensive.
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Old 07/29/2012, 12:46 PM   #74 (permalink)
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The OS had been in the marketplace since 2009. The interest in WebOS was over. The Touchpad was a stiff.

Why do people try to rewrite history?
I do not want to get into your argument, but the big problem with the TouchPad was the price, I wanted a TouchPad 32G, for $250 or so, for $600 it was not cost justified, a netbook was is priced at the $200 dollar level, why anyone would by a fancy tablet that can do a very little compared to a netbook? Once the firesale went on I grabbed one and Love it, would still not have paid more then $250 for one.

NetBooks have a full OS (Windows or Linux) one can do so much more with it. The issue for me was comparing price $600 was over priced, even the IPAD (1st, 2nd, or the new 3rd) is over priced. A MacBook is $1000 and OSX can run circles around a IPAD. I get the IPAD, apple name, connect all the apple devices (as long as they are within 3mos new). But to compete, HP/Palm should have priced them better.

Now can not speak for anyone else, but to say the TouchPad was a stiff is harsh.
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Old 07/29/2012, 01:23 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Every tablet that was out in 2011 (outside of the cheapie brands) was priced the same or higher than the Touchpad.

HP did not build a $250 device.

The Touchpad was a stiff because it didn't sell, even when the price was dropped $150. BB kept the playbook on the market for a long time, but sales never increased. There is no reason to believe that the Touchpad would have increased in sales by being in the market longer. Sales were going down weekly.

In terms of saying Apple devises and your 3 month window, my wife has a 2007, 1st generation iPod Touch that works flawlessly and connects to iTunes and the App store as it was new. Everything works, it's fast and solid.

Last edited by rnld; 07/29/2012 at 01:34 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 07/29/2012, 01:30 PM   #76 (permalink)
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The Touchpad did not become the #2 seller until the fire sale prices.

HP had dropped the price to $399 for the 16 gig and there were some $50 off sales on top of that.

If you agree with the marketing plan or not, the TV spots ran heavy at launch withe celebs doing the spots. The Touchpad awareness campaign was huge and expensive.
Actually, it was quite probably the #2 seller of any individual model prior to that, however #2 was so far behind #1 at the time, that there wasn't even much point in looking at #1. And now with the market mostly dropping to junk sales of things that no one was able to get rid of, Kindle Fires, and Google Nexus's any serious entrant is going to have to make their first effort to take the #4 place.
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Old 07/29/2012, 01:36 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Every tablet that was out in 2011 (outside of the cheapie brands) were priced the same or higher than the Touchpad.

HP did not build a $250 device.

The Touchpad was a stiff because it didn't sell, even when the price was dropped $150. BB kept the playbook on the market for a long time, but sales never increased. There is notreason to believe that the Touchpad would have increased in sales by being in the market longer. Sales were going down weekly.

In terms of saying Apple devises and your 3 month window, my wife has a 2007, 1st generation iPod Touch that works flawlessly and connects to iTunes and the App store as it was new. Everything works, it's fast and solid.
As I said I understood the Apple way, I have a 2007 MacBook, can't run Mountain Lion, 2007 IPOD (3rdG) can not run IOS 5.x, (have one), they can not update OS over the air, can not sync music over WiFi, no icloud, etc...

Now look at the App Store for Mountain Lion some 2009 Macs can't even run it now, I get it is 2012, I get apple.

The point is made some where the Touchpad was not IPAD parts, but what was left behind, they did a break down, $300 is what they thought the Touchpad cost to make... Well it is not Apple, it is not Android, it is webOS, who knows about webOS at the time?, yes us phone users, but tablets were new, HP did market, but not the right ads (what would have been right I do not know)...

I still do not think my Touchpad is a stiff, works great... Everything I expected and more it is not a netbook, but tried to be for $159...
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Old 07/29/2012, 01:40 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Don't forget that the Touchpad went on sale after the iPad 2 had been in the marketplace for 3 months.
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Old 07/29/2012, 01:57 PM   #79 (permalink)
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The 3rd generation iPod Touch most certainly runs 5.1.1.

Correct, Mountain Lion doesn't work officially on a macbook pre 2008, but it does on a 2007 macbook pro. It's a 64 bit OS unlike Lion which is both 64 and 32 bit.

Which 5 year old laptop is going to support Windows 8?

The Pre, pre plus, pixi and pixi plus from 2009/2010 don't support anything higher than 1.4.5.1. That's the Palm/HP way.

In terms of the word "stiff" I mean it did not catch on or sell. A movie that opens way below expectations is a stiff.

Last edited by rnld; 07/29/2012 at 02:05 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 07/29/2012, 02:21 PM   #80 (permalink)
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I do not want to get into your argument, but the big problem with the TouchPad was the price, I wanted a TouchPad 32G, for $250 or so, for $600 it was not cost justified, a netbook was is priced at the $200 dollar level, why anyone would by a fancy tablet that can do a very little compared to a netbook? Once the firesale went on I grabbed one and Love it, would still not have paid more then $250 for one.
Then the Nexus 7 should sell tons.
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