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Will Open WebOS actually be installable on a Pre?
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Old 06/28/2012, 03:53 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Is there anyone from WebOS Internals who might know the answer?
I'm sure there are...

But if they told you the answer they might have to silence you with extreme prejudice.
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Old 06/28/2012, 04:01 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Please pardon my ignorance of these things, but would Open webOS contain gesture area support? (Does webOS CE?)

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I would think that Open webOS is fully open to where anyone can change anything. So if the device supports gesture ares then I would say yes. The touchpad is the only exception since it does not have an actual "gesture area"
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Old 06/28/2012, 04:30 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by John Steffes View Post
I have a Verizon Pre3, Pre2, PrePlus, PixiPlus, AT&T Veer, and WiFi Touchpad.

All have enyo 1.0 all have the same modules under the /usr/palm/frameworks/enyo/0.10/framework...

Now the Pre3 does have a different mojo framework to handle the newer screen resolution 1.5 vs the 1.0, as does the Touchpad as if you run a legacy mojo app it frames it into a pre/pre2 screen window.

But according to diff (utility) Enyo 1.0 is Enyo 1.0, now if one compares the bing enyo to the pre2 enyo there are two files different Only in bingenyo/build/resources: es_mx.json and Only in pre2enyo/lib/syncui: css. Comparing the Verizon Pre3 there are different country files (Verizon Enyo only has ES and EN), where Pre2/Bing have all country files.

If there are modules you have discovered that are part of Enyo but not part of the Enyo framework bits I would love to know.
Well you're right. I forgot that one thing from Enyo is missing on the Pre 3: web applet. And now before you go and hit my face, that's what Arthur from Sparrow told me and given the fact that Arthur is going to internship at HP webOS, he does have the knowledge to have this right.
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Old 06/29/2012, 05:51 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 6tr6tr View Post
Is there anyone from WebOS Internals who might know the answer?
No clue. But open source was announced many many months ago and i've yet to hear anyone even ask the question "will open webos be only for tablets?" let alone an answer from HP to that question. Which i do think is weird that half a year later there's no answer. But if we don't have that i don't think anyone knows if it will work for Pre outside of those with inside information that won't say anything. That said i'm always surprised that i've never really heard anyone pose these questions to like Meg in a public forum.
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Old 06/29/2012, 09:23 PM   #25 (permalink)
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There are lots of little differences between Enyo on phones and Enyo on the TouchPad. A small difference in the Audio component (for what reason, I can't even figure out) caused a big problem with XO on phones briefly.
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Old 06/30/2012, 12:12 AM   #26 (permalink)
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I don't see them dumping phone support, and there's a fair bit of phone stuff in the Community Edition source, such as a small-screen virtual keyboard and config files for all the webOS phones.
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Old 06/30/2012, 04:12 AM   #27 (permalink)
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There are lots of little differences between Enyo on phones and Enyo on the TouchPad. A small difference in the Audio component (for what reason, I can't even figure out) caused a big problem with XO on phones briefly.
Yes, but on the Pre 3 it's different since the Pre 3 already shipped with Enyo before the older phones got the half-Enyo-upgrade-with-Bing. The Pre 3 only misses the Web Applet from Enyo, the rest is there.
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Old 06/30/2012, 11:44 AM   #28 (permalink)
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the op was asking a technical/factual question (that's a good one) I don't really see the need to vote your opinion.
I don't see how the previous reply was rude or offensive.
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Old 07/01/2012, 01:54 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I don't see how the previous reply was rude or offensive.
The question was "could it be done?" not "should it be done?"

Anyway... You probably won't want to touch the Pre/Pre+/Pixi/Pre2 with open webOS. It could probably be done, but the memory on those devices is pretty limited. The performance is guaranteed to be far less than optimal.

Regarding a Pre3 (and probably Veer), I'm not sure why not. I'll probably be poking at the Pre3 some, as that is my driver phone.

But honestly... The issue is going to be hardware -- primarily where memory is concerned. If the device has to swap out RAM frequently, it will slow to a crawl...

But, all I can say is: Just keep your eyes and mind open.
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Old 07/01/2012, 03:52 PM   #30 (permalink)
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You do know that because of a few limitatons the Pre 3 actually has almost the same amount of memory to use as the Pre 2? I don't remember exactly what it was, but the Pre 3 has only 384 MB to use out of the 512 MB while the Pre 2 has the full 256 MB to use. So I don't see why the Pre 2 won't run it with such a small difference. It may not run very smooth, but useable smooth at least.
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Old 07/01/2012, 08:00 PM   #31 (permalink)
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You do know that because of a few limitatons the Pre 3 actually has almost the same amount of memory to use as the Pre 2? I don't remember exactly what it was, but the Pre 3 has only 384 MB to use out of the 512 MB while the Pre 2 has the full 256 MB to use. So I don't see why the Pre 2 won't run it with such a small difference. It may not run very smooth, but useable smooth at least.
Both have 512 MB, however, the 3 uses a Qualcomm processor while the 2 uses a TI OMAP and other stuff. The design is similar, but the guts, not so much.

It's possible, but I think HP is going to leave it for the community.
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Old 07/02/2012, 02:33 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Oops, but still: the Pre 3 has less memory to use. The Pre 2 can use the full 512 MB while the Pre 3 can't. So it doesn't differ that much for OpenWebOS.
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Old 07/03/2012, 11:37 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Oops, but still: the Pre 3 has less memory to use. The Pre 2 can use the full 512 MB while the Pre 3 can't. So it doesn't differ that much for OpenWebOS.
Technically the Pre2 can't use the full 512. You are comparing the Pre2 without anything loaded vs the Pre3 with the OS loaded. (I am sure dkirker could be more specific on this, but that is where he was talking about memory swapping).

The Pre2 does have the best memory management/capabilities of all webOS devices from what I have seen. Even the Veer was better than the Pre3 in most instances.
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Old 07/06/2012, 08:18 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Yes, but on the Pre 3 it's different since the Pre 3 already shipped with Enyo before the older phones got the half-Enyo-upgrade-with-Bing. The Pre 3 only misses the Web Applet from Enyo, the rest is there.
That's not true.. the file picker is also missing, as is it on the other phones... Also your argumentation is a bit flawed, because the Pre3 had bing installed from the beginning (where the other phones had google maps)... I could not discover any difference between Enyo on the Pre3 and on a Pre2, Pre+, Pre-, Pixi+ or Veer (neither with the original 2.1.2 (europe) nor the leaked 2.2.4).
Eyno-wise all the phones are very similar. But that does not matter much... Enyo is just the framework, and it already is open source and you can even pack it into your own app to distribute and use it on devices that did not do the bing update and even on non webOS devices... so stop the Enyo nonsense. :-P

The issues with the phones and also the TouchPad will be drivers. As will it be with all other hardware... that is the reason why there are not thousands of phones out there that get dual booted into Meego or Tizen (which is open source since years, so you could basically port it to anything you want). The hardware drivers of our old phones and also the touchpad are not open sourced! Hopefully some smart guys can figure out how to connect the hardware drivers we have to the new architecture of Open webOS. But it is not given that this will work without issues (or even work at all... ). The OS would most probably boot on all the hardware, sure... but it's the unusal devices such a phone has... starting from simpler things like the Touchscreen, camera, ... going to more advanced stuff like the modem hardware or the integrated wlan/bluetooth. And then there are the little things like the ringer switch..

No single person from HP ever said that Open webOS was meant to run on any of the legacy webOS hardware that is currently around... some people (including me) tried to press something like that from the developer relations team in the developer forums, but they were very careful to never say or even hint that they would publish Open webOs for any of the legacy hardware.

I really hope the community gets Open webOS running on any of my "legacy" webOs hardware. But I'm quite convinced that HP won't help with that...

To answer the question from the OP: Most probably you will be able to install it on a Pre. Most probably it will even boot... but that's about it, what is to be expected in September. The rest needs to come from the community and might well be impossible.
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Old 07/06/2012, 09:35 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Technically the Pre2 can't use the full 512. You are comparing the Pre2 without anything loaded vs the Pre3 with the OS loaded. (I am sure dkirker could be more specific on this, but that is where he was talking about memory swapping).

The Pre2 does have the best memory management/capabilities of all webOS devices from what I have seen. Even the Veer was better than the Pre3 in most instances.
Of course neither can, since webOS takes up a good 2-300 IIRC.

AFAIK, the Pre 3 uses more memory for the radio or something like that, thus,the less memory available to programs.

If anyone wants to swap for my Pre2, I'm open
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Old 07/06/2012, 01:37 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Taking a step back...

Enyo 1.0 on phones is different than on the TouchPad. Yes, the framework files are the same, but the phones lack a working WebView, some differences with sound, and lacking luna-systemui files for the Pickers.

That being said... I'd love to try to get open webOS on my Pre3 (or even chunks of it). But, there are no promises being made, and no timelines given. It is a decent undertaking. But, nothing is impossible, ever.

Regarding memory: I'd say, open webOS in full on anything older than a Pre3 is probably a bad idea. Pre2, maybe. It will be painful on anything older. Don't expect it on a Pixi (unless you also enjoy stabbing the webbing between your fingers multiple times).
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Old 07/06/2012, 09:18 PM   #37 (permalink)
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So...is there an official answer ot this?
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Old 07/06/2012, 09:45 PM   #38 (permalink)
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So...is there an official answer ot this?
Looks to me as if the people who actually know the devices and software best are saying...

Wait a little while, the facts are not all in yet.
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Old 07/06/2012, 11:49 PM   #39 (permalink)
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dkirker: the framework files are not 100% the same -- example, the Audio or Sound kinds are different. I've run into a few other minor differences as well. This is comparing the Enyo installed via Maps vs. the TouchPad Enyo. I believe the Pre3 has the same Enyo that is with the Maps, although I haven't done an extensive comparison.

6tr6tr:
The only official answer at this time, is what was posted along with the release of the webOS CE:

Quote:
WebOS Internals has set up a dedicated team for providing support for legacy TouchPad devices using the webOS Community Edition release. Going forward they also plan to support Open webOS 1.0 on well-documented mobile devices with readily available hardware drivers.
There is simply not enough information available at this time to determine what can be easily achieved, what will be harder to achieve, and what will be nigh impossible to achieve.
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Old 07/07/2012, 01:49 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Would you rather support Internet Explorer 7 or Chrome 20?

Fact is, the old Pre is a single-core 600Mhz processor that has zero future-forward optimizations that take into account the new reality of the mobile OS landscape. For a comparable, retrofitting Android 4.0 onto, say, the original Motorola Droid would be like asking someone to kneecap the OS to run slow enough to handle all the instruction sets being thrown at it when it couldn't possibly keep up. The Pre is a literal elder in the market undeserving of continued support, as its reasonable lifetime has come and gone after more than THREE years.

On the other hand, if webOS maintains backward performance compatibility with devices such as the Pre/Pixi/Pre+/Pixi+, the modern devices are going to suffer mightily by mounds of legacy code formerly optimized for those systems rather than smartly breaking reasonable support off at a rational level to move forward to prevent code bloat and add int he future-forward elements they need.

Go ahead and complain about it, but it's just reality. An OS can't be everything to everyone, or I'd be running Windows 7 on a Celeron 300 right now. If someone wants to go through the masochistic process of continually stripping Open webOS for ancient Palm devices once it's released, well, more power to them.

So, it's a tradeoff. Would you rather see the emphasis on Open webOS branches placed on older devices that had a limited shelf life, demonstrably poor build quality, and exposure to new users, or would you rather see webOS live on in next-generaton hardware from other platforms which experienced coders can build drivers for the next generation of hardware? You can't have it all.

Last edited by dignitary; 07/07/2012 at 01:57 AM.
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