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Old 06/14/2012, 11:36 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by blackfireball5 View Post

All the manufacturer would be worried about is making the phone work out of the box with those OS's. Once its in the hands of the users, they can do whatever they want with it. Its just like it is now with Android and webOS. We customize the hell out of webOS, doesn't mean HP has to worry about that.
webos failed. bad example. allowing people to alter it didn't save it and allowing preware and skins is vastly different then what was proposed which is have a outside people write code altering the os and have the phone manufactures go back and approve, release and support it. Bottom line, even with webos, palm didn't approve preware tweaks in their updates nor act as the support for it.

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And again, as I've said, i don't think there would be any issue with demand.
I've never heard a person outside of this forum or a a tech website comment section even mention webos. If it was in high demand they wouldn't have had to sell tablets for $99. simple as that. The demand isn't big.



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The phone would be able to run Android. Assuming the phone is a beautiful one with amazing specs, why would they have problems selling the phone?
It costs money to do and i don't hear anyone asking for it outside of webos forums. just don't think they want to spend money on the added expense.

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I think people underestimate how much people like and want webOS on a quality piece of hardware. How many times have you read someone say they'd come back to webOS if there were better hardware to run it on?
I think people that want webos on a quality piece of hardware overestimate how many people like that there are.

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I'm not saying this would be easy. But i do believe that the smartphone market is shifting away from subsidized phones, and if not shifting, at the very least there is discussion about it lately.

Are Carrier Subsidies Hurting Innovation and Driving Up Mobile Phone Costs? | Fox Business
one ceo wants to drop subsidies? of course. they all do. They all would love to get rid on an expense. regardless it's talk from one guy not momentum. But nobody is gonna sign contracts and few people in the U.S. can afford a grand for a cellphone that works on only one network that's obsolete in 9 months. plus expensive monthly fees. in the near term it's a pipe dream. And even if you get rid of subsidies it doesn't mean the maker has any incentive to offer a phone with multiple operating systems. Multiple antennaes so you can switch networks? yes. Operating systems? no.
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Old 06/15/2012, 08:38 AM   #42 (permalink)
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webos failed. bad example. allowing people to alter it didn't save it and allowing preware and skins is vastly different then what was proposed which is have a outside people write code altering the os and have the phone manufactures go back and approve, release and support it. Bottom line, even with webos, palm didn't approve preware tweaks in their updates nor act as the support for it.
WebOS failed because of pricing, marketing, hardware quality, low app count, and unfortunate events. That doesn't have anything to do with my discussion. And just so you know, having "outside people write code to alter the OS" is the definition of what an Open Source OS is. The community has full access to all the core software, the manufacturer would not have to "approve" it. They just release version ____ and then the user is free to do with the phone what they want. OS updates would be coming out from the community anyway. That's what were about to see happen after 1.0 is released in September. I'm sure WOSI will be working on the OS to incorporate as many new features and get that OS working on other hardware options anyway.


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I've never heard a person outside of this forum or a a tech website comment section even mention webos. If it was in high demand they wouldn't have had to sell tablets for $99. simple as that. The demand isn't big.
I have. Read many of the top phone/technology review websites and you'll see many of them fault the hardware and other issues surrounding webOS, not the OS itself. Go read these forums and you'll see just how many people have stated they would be willing to come back to webOS once it is available on other hardware, especially a slab phone. Also, at one point i had 3 of my friends with webOS devices, they didn't leave because of webOS, in fact, they still love and miss webOS, they left because their phones either broke or they had an upgrade available and wanted newer hardware.

Again...... It didn't have to do with the OS itself, go read The Verge's article about why it flopped. If it was priced right and they actually stuck with it, it may have had a chance. Demand was crazy high for the Touchpad at 99 dollars. "(Demand for the $99 TouchPad was so strong from internal sales to HP employees alone that it brought down the company's entire public e-commerce system, which shared the same infrastructure.)" And i believe that was even before anyone had Android running on the Touchpad.

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It costs money to do and i don't hear anyone asking for it outside of webos forums. just don't think they want to spend money on the added expense.
Maybe so, but who knows. When you have a complete monopoly over an entire OS with the only up-to-date phone, who knows what the outcome of sales would be? It's hard to say.


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I think people that want webos on a quality piece of hardware overestimate how many people like that there are.
Agree to disagree.



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one ceo wants to drop subsidies? of course. they all do. They all would love to get rid on an expense. regardless it's talk from one guy not momentum. But nobody is gonna sign contracts and few people in the U.S. can afford a grand for a cellphone that works on only one network that's obsolete in 9 months. plus expensive monthly fees. in the near term it's a pipe dream. And even if you get rid of subsidies it doesn't mean the maker has any incentive to offer a phone with multiple operating systems. Multiple antennaes so you can switch networks? yes. Operating systems? no.
Its much more than one CEO, just google it and you'll see a lot of discussion about it from just last last 2 months. I'm not saying all of the discussion is pointing that it will happen, just that it is spurring discussion now more than ever.

It was just an idea, hence the first line in my first post. But i do actually see some potential in the idea, though i admit it is somewhat far fetched.
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Old 06/15/2012, 03:50 PM   #43 (permalink)
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What about the issues with the operating system itself? Didn't that contribute to the failure? If you have a good product it will sell. The operating system was never complete and includes too many bugs and limitations to make it an attractive product. Especially when you compare it to the alternatives. Barely anyone cared about cards and multitasking on a tiny device especially when the performance isn't up to par. The development tools are lacking and took long to develop causing app quality to suffer. There are just too many issues.
While there were bugs and features lacking, i highly disagree that it was/is not an "attractive product". All OS's go through bug fixes, patches, revisions, etc. Its not unusual. I don't believe the lacking features and bugs played even half as large a roll in webOS's failure as the other reasons i listed above.
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Old 06/15/2012, 04:46 PM   #44 (permalink)
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WebOS failed because of pricing, marketing, hardware quality, low app count, and unfortunate events. That doesn't have anything to do with my discussion. And just so you know, having "outside people write code to alter the OS" is the definition of what an Open Source OS is. The community has full access to all the core software, the manufacturer would not have to "approve" it. They just release version ____ and then the user is free to do with the phone what they want. OS updates would be coming out from the community anyway. That's what were about to see happen after 1.0 is released in September. I'm sure WOSI will be working on the OS to incorporate as many new features and get that OS working on other hardware options anyway.
you are in a fantasy world if you think Webos the operating system had no flaws and didnt' play a major part. Tis irrelevant why though but the blindness of follewers is why it was never improved. The small number of webos followers insisted nothing was wrong with the OS. Why it failed doesn't matter. Palm still didn't do what you are saying: palm didn't approve preware tweaks in their updates nor act as the support for it. And that's what the poster is suggesting.


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Originally Posted by blackfireball5 View Post
I have. Read many of the top phone/technology review websites and you'll see many of them fault the hardware and other issues surrounding webOS, not the OS itself. Go read these forums and you'll see just how many people have stated they would be willing to come back to webOS once it is available on other hardware, especially a slab phone. Also, at one point i had 3 of my friends with webOS devices, they didn't leave because of webOS, in fact, they still love and miss webOS, they left because their phones either broke or they had an upgrade available and wanted newer hardware.
Webos has major flaws. people on webos forums refuse to address them and so they are oblivious to the criticism of the masses. It's willful blindness and then wondering why nobody feels like you. delusion.

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Again...... It didn't have to do with the OS itself, go read The Verge's article about why it flopped. If it was priced right and they actually stuck with it, it may have had a chance. Demand was crazy high for the Touchpad at 99 dollars. "(Demand for the $99 TouchPad was so strong from internal sales to HP employees alone that it brought down the company's entire public e-commerce system, which shared the same infrastructure.)" And i believe that was even before anyone had Android running on the Touchpad.
I've read it along with many accounts of the problems at HP. And i used the os so i know very much it's shortcomings, it's larthargic performance, lack of support, lack of improvement, lack of features, etc. Again it's a delusion that the only problem with webos was hardware. And even so. It was one of many problems.

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Maybe so, but who knows. When you have a complete monopoly over an entire OS with the only up-to-date phone, who knows what the outcome of sales would be? It's hard to say.
I can say that if there's little demand you'll have little sales.


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Agree to disagree.
sure. lol. we just disagree. we don't need to agree to do it lol. it's just the way it is. i'm not trying to make anyone agree with me though. People can believe what they want. I will say though. if demand was great people would have bought the phones in great numbers. they didn't.


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Its much more than one CEO, just google it and you'll see a lot of discussion about it from just last last 2 months. I'm not saying all of the discussion is pointing that it will happen, just that it is spurring discussion now more than ever.
I don't see anyone else that matters saying, "man we really are looking to make a phone that dual boots some os and webos. hate or paying for subsidies and wanting more profits is separate then anyone claiming they want to make a dual boot webos phone.

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It was just an idea, hence the first line in my first post. But i do actually see some potential in the idea, though i admit it is somewhat far fetched.
well i just think it's far fetched.
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Old 06/15/2012, 06:49 PM   #45 (permalink)
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you are in a fantasy world if you think Webos the operating system had no flaws and didnt' play a major part. Tis irrelevant why though but the blindness of follewers is why it was never improved. The small number of webos followers insisted nothing was wrong with the OS. Why it failed doesn't matter. Palm still didn't do what you are saying: palm didn't approve preware tweaks in their updates nor act as the support for it. And that's what the poster is suggesting.




Webos has major flaws. people on webos forums refuse to address them and so they are oblivious to the criticism of the masses. It's willful blindness and then wondering why nobody feels like you. delusion.



I've read it along with many accounts of the problems at HP. And i used the os so i know very much it's shortcomings, it's larthargic performance, lack of support, lack of improvement, lack of features, etc. Again it's a delusion that the only problem with webos was hardware. And even so. It was one of many problems.



I can say that if there's little demand you'll have little sales.



sure. lol. we just disagree. we don't need to agree to do it lol. it's just the way it is. i'm not trying to make anyone agree with me though. People can believe what they want. I will say though. if demand was great people would have bought the phones in great numbers. they didn't.




I don't see anyone else that matters saying, "man we really are looking to make a phone that dual boots some os and webos. hate or paying for subsidies and wanting more profits is separate then anyone claiming they want to make a dual boot webos phone.



well i just think it's far fetched.
I think the failure to improve had more to do with Palm rewriting so much from the ground up with every major OS release. Same thing is happening with Enyo 2. As a developer, it just makes me frustrated even though in some ways I can understand why they did it. They were so busy re-writing everything they didn't have time to fix real problems.
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Old 06/16/2012, 04:13 PM   #46 (permalink)
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you are in a fantasy world if you think Webos the operating system had no flaws and didnt' play a major part. Tis irrelevant why though but the blindness of follewers is why it was never improved. The small number of webos followers insisted nothing was wrong with the OS. Why it failed doesn't matter. Palm still didn't do what you are saying: palm didn't approve preware tweaks in their updates nor act as the support for it. And that's what the poster is suggesting.
I never said it didnt play a role, i said i didnt think it played as large of a role as the other reasons. See my post above.

You misinterpreted what i wrote, i never said "palm approved preware tweaks". I don't even understand where your coming from with that.


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Webos has major flaws. people on webos forums refuse to address them and so they are oblivious to the criticism of the masses. It's willful blindness and then wondering why nobody feels like you. delusion.
I know it does. I'm not denying that. I can list plenty that i had to deal with through out my years with webOS. Please stop insulting me.

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I've read it along with many accounts of the problems at HP. And i used the os so i know very much it's shortcomings, it's larthargic performance, lack of support, lack of improvement, lack of features, etc. Again it's a delusion that the only problem with webos was hardware. And even so. It was one of many problems.
I never said it was only hardware. geez...

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I can say that if there's little demand you'll have little sales.

"(Demand for the $99 TouchPad was so strong from internal sales to HP employees alone that it brought down the company's entire public e-commerce system, which shared the same infrastructure.)"

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sure. lol. we just disagree. we don't need to agree to do it lol. it's just the way it is. i'm not trying to make anyone agree with me though. People can believe what they want. I will say though. if demand was great people would have bought the phones in great numbers. they didn't.
Would you buy a phone that had a good OS, poor hardware, not as many big name apps, and was priced too high?

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I don't see anyone else that matters saying, "man we really are looking to make a phone that dual boots some os and webos. hate or paying for subsidies and wanting more profits is separate then anyone claiming they want to make a dual boot webos phone.
It is an idea. If you don't like it, that's ok. Innovation is key. Doing what everyone else is doing just because that's the way it is is a safe route but lacks creativity. You don't get to the top following the pack.
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Old 06/17/2012, 11:16 PM   #47 (permalink)
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"(Demand for the $99 TouchPad was so strong from internal sales to HP employees alone that it brought down the company's entire public e-commerce system, which shared the same infrastructure.)"
You can price a Lamborghini at $40,000 and you'll have enormous demand, but Lamborghini will be bankrupt. Hell Borders had a packed store when they had a going out of business sale. Their where lines 40 people long to check out. That doesn't mean borders had a good business. The problem is when they were in business nobody wanted to buy books from them. That's the Touchpad. Not to mention the other problem with judging demand by a sale price of that tablet is many people bought it to put android on it so they specifically did not buy it for webos. Regardless, when at a sustainable price, not nearly enough people wanted to buy it. A ridiculously slashed, unprofitable price is not proof of demand at full price and that's what matters.

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It is an idea. If you don't like it, that's ok. Innovation is key. Doing what everyone else is doing just because that's the way it is is a safe route but lacks creativity. You don't get to the top following the pack.
i just think it's at this point it's far fetched but. I'm not saying impossible. I just think it's unlikely. I think there's a better chance of someone making a standalone webos tablet actually. And i think most likely it will get hacked onto devices and old touchpads first (if they don't announce some third party hardware maker when they release a full Open webos in september).
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Old 06/17/2012, 11:28 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I think the failure to improve had more to do with Palm rewriting so much from the ground up with every major OS release. Same thing is happening with Enyo 2. As a developer, it just makes me frustrated even though in some ways I can understand why they did it. They were so busy re-writing everything they didn't have time to fix real problems.
Why it failed wasn't really even relevant to the discussion. All i said was it failed and someone launched into why they thought it failed.

As to your reasons why i'm no developer and don't understand that stuff. Don't fully understand what Enyo is Honestly i don't want to even know what an application framework is. 'm just a consumer. i don't want to have to know what enyo, luna blah blah blah means. I pretty much just want it to work. I'll leave that others stuff to you guys. I'll take your word for the nuts and bolts of why things didn't get updated or improved.
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