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News? Updates? Is there a life after the "Pre" and "TP"?
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Old 05/21/2012, 09:50 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Hi guys

We WebOS nerds are all eagerly waiting for openWebOs. I am sure, you are with me at that.
In this section of the forum there is a lot of speculation about what devices it could run on.

My question is: is there ANY search for devicemanufacturers going on by HP?

Because, get this: if you don't want openWebOS to be dead on birth, you will have to put it on hardware asap. (You wouldn't want to have another ALP or other likewise dead smartphone OS)

To do this, you have to find a manufacturer which is willing to produce hardware for openWebOS.

So far so clear?

To get a manufacturer put a phone on the market in time to put openWebOS on it, that company would have to start producing hardware ... well ... kinda NOW.

So far I haven't heard a single statement that's not a rumour l "Facebook" or "Amazon" or something. There is nothing concrete as of now. Am I right?

If the search for a hardwareproducer is starting AFTER openWebOS is already cooked and done, the timing is as bad as it could be. If there isn't anything solid in the cue as of now, I don't give openWebOS a chance to live, honestly.
As sad as this is, I guess, we won't see much of our beloved OS anymore...

My Euro2ct so far.

What has been done to push openWebOS? Is the huge mass of OpenSource community in any way interested in it? Are hundreds of developers wooed into developing? Are there tons of reports in all the fancy OpenSource Magazines to kindle interest or at least keep the thing in the heads of people?
Are there many community events, at least once a month?
Is there any search for hardwaremanufacturers that can be taken seriously (ok this might put HP in an awkward position, as they are hardware producers themselves)...

If I am informed right, non of the steps above have been undertaken. And while the project "openWebOS" itself is on schedule, it is just us, a small community of "left-overs" who are still a bit interested in it.

I think HP has already bungled the job again, even before that baby is here...

So sad.
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Old 05/21/2012, 02:44 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Whilst I can't answer a lot of what you asked above, there is much going on with Enyo2 in terms of promotion. Enyo is gold sponsor at Fluent conf, and Markus from Dev Rel is making his rounds in Europe speaking at several js confs... As well as others in the Enyo team. Enyo has been downloaded thousands of times and has a lot of contributions from the community already on github. This is important, because the more people using Enyo2 means more apps for webOS.

Enda is going to OSBC, I'm guessing to represent open webOS.

All of the above is just from having a quick read on Twitter and github. I'm sure there is more going on...
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Old 05/21/2012, 08:54 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Anyone that is capable of producing hardware isn't going to talk about it until they have something to show, unless it's some kind of startup with little funding. And even then, they'd probably be smart not to bring up webOS in their business plan, considering how many complete disasters webOS has experienced.

If we see any word from anyone on that end, it won't be until September or later.
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Old 05/21/2012, 11:07 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I think that webOS's short term future will rely on it being successfully installed on existing (Android) hardware.
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Old 05/21/2012, 11:20 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I would think hard to have any serious talks until the beta at least is finished. HP needs a product that potential manufacturers can look at, even if under NDA.
Also HP obviously needs testing hardware right now to work through software testing. But hard to say whether they are just using TouchPads or whether they are using newer hardware.
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Old 05/22/2012, 02:28 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I think OP misunderstands the situation.

If HP had any concrete plans to pish webos products they would have announced that months ago.

They open sourced it mainly because they *don't* have concrete plans for it. And open sourcing it means more *potential* partners later.

I'm sure some OEMs keep an eye on it as a possible alternative - if they need one instead of Android. But Oracles cse vs Google over Java implementations seems to implode and the Motorla deal didn't freak out anybody too much so far.

HP itself is falling back to old habits and go with MS. They'll revisit webos in a big way only when W8 fails like Vista and Android doesn't look like a better option. And they can indirectly make some money out of webos as it helps in negotiations with MS (as an implied threat).

For now (or rather beginning this coming autumn) webos will be for enthusiasts or niche interests.
People who don't mind installing open webos on Android hardware.

For webos to get it's own dedicated devices again W8 has to fail first.
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Old 05/22/2012, 03:40 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I think OP misunderstands the situation.

If HP had any concrete plans to pish webos products they would have announced that months ago.

No I do understand quite well what opensourcing a software means.
After Apotheker and the whole boardmember (aka quarreling kiddygarden) had busted the job, HP had two options:
1) throw the billion dollar investment WebOS into the bin right away or
2) invest a bit more into it to make it open source and gamble on the hope, that someone is interested (can still throw it into the bin, if nobody is interested).

What I don't understand is, what you mean by "pish", but then again, english aint my mother-tongue.

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They open sourced it mainly because they *don't* have concrete plans for it. And open sourcing it means more *potential* partners later.

...
Later? LATER?
How much later? How long can you put an os on the shelf and hope someone turns up, who might be interested?

Ask Smartphone users here in Europe about WebOS! You get one answer mostly: "Web-O-What?"

To put a product on the market means to put it into the heads of the customers as well. Clearly something that even Palm forgot how to do aroung 1999 to 2002 ... they are the best example how NOT to do it and how to drop from "Top Dog" here in Europe to "completely unknown" in only 6 to 10 years.

Doing everything only halve-a**ed is what did cost Palm the market, therefore success of PalmOS6 and subsequently they were not able anymore to get a footing with WebOS as well.
HP had the right idea in the beginning, but bad marketing (remember, pricing is part of marketing) and very bad turncoat decisions have ruined it all.

Now they try to limit the damage, but to do so, they MUST make WebOS much more interesting, than they are doing right now. For that they have to invest money again, something they seem to not want too much right now (understandably so).

It's a devils bet. To highten the chances for openWebOS to be successful, HP would need to invest more (maybe even produce HW again). They don't want to loose the money they already invested but they don't want to loose even more, so investing more hightens the risk of loosing more but also hightens the chances that the product gains footing... but no one can tell them how much they need to invest to turn the odds in their favor...

It is a very difficult situation now. But you can't halve hold, halve let go of a product, because this will fail most definitely. To gain anything from it, HP would need to bite the sour apple and go through with it, with all force.
But it seems to me, no one at HP is willing to do so.

Sad thing, really.
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Old 05/22/2012, 06:46 AM   #8 (permalink)
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No I do understand quite well what opensourcing a software means.
After Apotheker and the whole boardmember (aka quarreling kiddygarden) had busted the job, HP had two options:
1) throw the billion dollar investment WebOS into the bin right away or
2) invest a bit more into it to make it open source and gamble on the hope, that someone is interested (can still throw it into the bin, if nobody is interested).

What I don't understand is, what you mean by "pish", but then again, english aint my mother-tongue.



Later? LATER?
How much later? How long can you put an os on the shelf and hope someone turns up, who might be interested?

Ask Smartphone users here in Europe about WebOS! You get one answer mostly: "Web-O-What?"

To put a product on the market means to put it into the heads of the customers as well. Clearly something that even Palm forgot how to do aroung 1999 to 2002 ... they are the best example how NOT to do it and how to drop from "Top Dog" here in Europe to "completely unknown" in only 6 to 10 years.

Doing everything only halve-a**ed is what did cost Palm the market, therefore success of PalmOS6 and subsequently they were not able anymore to get a footing with WebOS as well.
HP had the right idea in the beginning, but bad marketing (remember, pricing is part of marketing) and very bad turncoat decisions have ruined it all.

Now they try to limit the damage, but to do so, they MUST make WebOS much more interesting, than they are doing right now. For that they have to invest money again, something they seem to not want too much right now (understandably so).

It's a devils bet. To highten the chances for openWebOS to be successful, HP would need to invest more (maybe even produce HW again). They don't want to loose the money they already invested but they don't want to loose even more, so investing more hightens the risk of loosing more but also hightens the chances that the product gains footing... but no one can tell them how much they need to invest to turn the odds in their favor...

It is a very difficult situation now. But you can't halve hold, halve let go of a product, because this will fail most definitely. To gain anything from it, HP would need to bite the sour apple and go through with it, with all force.
But it seems to me, no one at HP is willing to do so.

Sad thing, really.
I think the bet is that the architecture has to evolve to support web-based apps so that developers make them once and are platform agnostic. There is where webOS would shine. Until then, we have a closed-ecosystem app world where companies like Apple shine. So the community has to keep webOS evolving software-wise and keep up the enthusiasm until its strengths fit the architecture. That said, the existence of Open Mobile which claims it can run android apps in a card on webOS, could vastly help webOS compete even in today's architecture (provided the android apps work and are not too ugly), thus making webOS possibly a viable option for a third-party OEM to differentiate itself from android clones.
In HP's best case, getting some near term hardware manufacturer interest this way, will also bring back developers as they see their android apps running on OpenMobile and consumers buying the platform so the developers try out the webOS platform and decide they like it enough to create some new apps for it. A lot of ifs here so HP I think will move slowly. But i still think webOS as elegant open and free mobile OS is potentially a disruptive force in the marketplace.
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Old 05/22/2012, 04:27 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Buddy1969 View Post
Hi guys

We WebOS nerds are all eagerly waiting for openWebOs. I am sure, you are with me at that.
In this section of the forum there is a lot of speculation about what devices it could run on.

My question is: is there ANY search for devicemanufacturers going on by HP?.....
you're never going to know these answers unless you're an employee of the company and even then you wouldn't be talking about it on random forums without getting fired. They've long ago announced their timeline and as far as we know they are meeting their dates. They could be doing nothing with device makers. They could have deals in place with device makers as we speak. Or considering that HP is a hardware company, they could be the device maker and have their own plans to make their own device. Business is kept confidential until they feel it's right to tell the public. They'll tell the world when the have something to tell and a reason to tell it. It's naive to expect more. Patience is a virtue.
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Old 05/22/2012, 04:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
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What I don't understand is, what you mean by "pish", but then again, english aint my mother-tongue.
If you were being sarcastic i'm sorry i didn't get it. But i think that's a typo and he meant "push" as in push the product to market.


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Originally Posted by Buddy1969 View Post
Later? LATER?
How much later? How long can you put an os on the shelf and hope someone turns up, who might be interested?
Cold be the end of the year, could be next year. 4 years, could be never. Who knows who is interested. there are people at this forum interested but will their be enough outside of that? Can't tell you. but as long as it doesn't look profitable and as long as HP's revenue and profits decline they aren't going to take and big financial risks on speculative products.


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Originally Posted by Buddy1969 View Post
Now they try to limit the damage, but to do so, they MUST make WebOS much more interesting, than they are doing right now. For that they have to invest money again, something they seem to not want too much right now (understandably so).
I think you fundamentally misunderstand HP's financial situation. HP has had financial problems for many years. Well before they bought WebOS too. They stopped making webos devices for simple reasons: enough people didn't buy them and thus they weren't making any profit. They are not going to limit damage of financial losses by taking a greater loss by investing more in a failed product. That's not limiting damage. Open sourcing it is limiting damage because it's a small investment with a possible large payoff should they be able to improve it and use it.

And HP reports it's quarterly earnings tomorrow. I don't have any predictions but Dell missed it's earnings and HP is in the same space. And not sure they'd be firing 30k if things were all good. they aren't apple or microsoft and sitting on piles of cash that they can risk to carry products through lean times. As long as they keep making less and less profit they are not going to want to take risky chances on products they've already failed with. Simple as that.
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Old 05/22/2012, 10:09 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I think that webOS's short term future will rely on it being successfully installed on existing (Android) hardware.
i agree and to be honest i don't see any phone manufacturer putting webos on their phones and selling them. open webos will be given to the dev community most likely at xda.
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Old 05/22/2012, 11:02 PM   #12 (permalink)
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i agree with original poster. wouldn't hp kinda give us some more hints other than just...hey we finished this portion of the open webos. ok, great. i'm happy to hear that, but really man? nothing else? it's almost like they are playing with the community's dedication to the platform.

we have been under secrecy for how many years now with what's coming, what may come, what's happening?

my dumb mornoic buttocks bought a pre3 because it's the only phone i think worth buying, and HP is totally ignoring that fact. how many years am i to wait for decent apps to be developed by the copmany that owns the OS? remember a couple of years ago when they were about to buy the OS? remember they were going to get their own developers on board and start coding apps for their own future platform? where are those apps?

And Kessler... what happened to him? what happened to the articles? they said they will not bail on webosnation.com, but it kinda seems like they have (after the "other" webos site closed down).

I don't know, i want kessler/bohn back. anyone actually go to the verge.com site?
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Old 05/23/2012, 02:51 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I think at the moment the only hope is when/if ever Open WebOS comes, that a Chinese manufacturer clones (more or less illegal) a Pre3 and sell it. Maybe they add some funny gimmicks, like Dual SIM
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Old 05/23/2012, 06:38 AM   #14 (permalink)
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...
I think you fundamentally misunderstand HP's financial situation. ...
No I don't. That's why I added "understandably so".
I am fully aware, that they don't want to invest more into openWebOS, say, to boost marketing etc.
It's just not that important.

Nevertheless, you can't sell a product (even if it is the best thing in the world), if you don't RAM it into the heads of your customers way beforehand. The customer needs to think "WebOS" whenever he hears "smartphone". He needs to know a product long before he stands in front of the store or the shelf where the product lies.

But there IS no product as of yet.
And it looks like nobody who is in charge of openWebOS is seriously looking for a Hardwareproducer - there are not even rumours anymore AFAIK.

So openWebOS will be ready in September. And? Then what? Put it on a shelf and let it die slowly?

THAT's that I was asking and THAT is what I dread. HP concentrates on opensourcing. Fine. But that's only part of the game. You need a hardware, you need marketing, you need distribution, you need, you need, you need....
And for all that, you need money.
Money that no one is willing to spend, because no one can guarantee, that it is WELL spent. And no one can tell you, when the ROI will be. And no one dares to guess if and how much revenue you can make with an openWebOS product.

So there are only a few companies, that would risk putting OpenWebOS on their hardware. There profile would be either
1) "we have so much money, we can affor to risk it" or
2) "we are desperate to enter the hustle and bustle of the smartphone/tablet market and have no OS we can [afford to]licence

Did I miss anything?
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Old 05/23/2012, 08:15 AM   #15 (permalink)
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So openWebOS will be ready in September. And? Then what? Put it on a shelf and let it die slowly?

THAT's that I was asking and THAT is what I dread.
Unfortunately, that is very likely what will happen. With HP announcing that it's cutting 25,000 jobs this week, they're obviously going to devote their time and resources toward their most profitable ventures... and likely away from anything they don't see as such... you can draw your own conclusions as to where the story goes from there.
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Old 05/23/2012, 02:03 PM   #16 (permalink)
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No I don't. That's why I added "understandably so".
I am fully aware, that they don't want to invest more into openWebOS, say, to boost marketing etc.
It's just not that important.

Nevertheless, you can't sell a product (even if it is the best thing in the world), if you don't RAM it into the heads of your customers way beforehand. The customer needs to think "WebOS" whenever he hears "smartphone". He needs to know a product long before he stands in front of the store or the shelf where the product lies.

But there IS no product as of yet.
And it looks like nobody who is in charge of openWebOS is seriously looking for a Hardwareproducer - there are not even rumours anymore AFAIK.

So openWebOS will be ready in September. And? Then what? Put it on a shelf and let it die slowly?

THAT's that I was asking and THAT is what I dread. HP concentrates on opensourcing. Fine. But that's only part of the game. You need a hardware, you need marketing, you need distribution, you need, you need, you need....
And for all that, you need money.
Money that no one is willing to spend, because no one can guarantee, that it is WELL spent. And no one can tell you, when the ROI will be. And no one dares to guess if and how much revenue you can make with an openWebOS product.

So there are only a few companies, that would risk putting OpenWebOS on their hardware. There profile would be either
1) "we have so much money, we can affor to risk it" or
2) "we are desperate to enter the hustle and bustle of the smartphone/tablet market and have no OS we can [afford to]licence

Did I miss anything?
i think if you understood their financial situation you wouldn't even expect them to invest in something they've lost a billions on already webos.
"nobody who is in charge of openWebOS is seriously looking for a Hardwareproducer?" Even if they were you are not in a position to know such things or you wouldn't be on a forum discussing them. Sorry but you're not an exectutive at HP so you'd never know anyways. No idea why you'd think you somehow should know this info. "Put it on a shelf and let it die slowly?" Yes quite possibly. Open sourcing is a cost minimizing measure. It's a way to stop making expensive devices that nobody bought. And yeah, it may get released and just die on the vine or become some open source widely used juggernaut.
Everyone should thing of webos smartphones? I think if you remember them saying they are basically not making smartphones anymore you should not be expecting anyone outside if this forum to thing smartphone when anyone says webos. Not that people are running around shouting about it.
"All this requires money." which is exactly why it's ridiculous to think anything other then what is happening now is going to happen anytime soon. Now if you have 4 billion dollars feel free to market webos, make deals for hardware manufactures and advertising companies, hire engineers to develop products. But truth is nobody is going to do that at the moment. It's fantasy to expect anyone to be shelling out tons of money on webos anyways. It's not gonna happen. Most likely it will be a very small, niche OS for hobbyists hackers or if your lucky some dual boot option. But considering the bath HP already took on webos complaining that they haven't done or started all these extremely costly activities you mention is like complaining that Buick isn't releasing a new LeSabre. If they were you'd never know until they announce it and it's not like the world is demanding it in great numbers.
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Old 05/23/2012, 07:59 PM   #17 (permalink)
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interesting. listened to HP's earnings call and Q&A. Unless i missed it. No mention of WebOS and no Inquiries from questioners about webos. Did discuss windows 8 in the contest of a potential refresh in the pc markets in Asia and the US. But the huge majority of the Call discussion was about enterprise rather then consumers. But they could also be playing their cards close to the vest until they announce more products at HP Discover in June.

earnings call was here http://edge.media-server.com/m/p/vzdn5644/lan/en
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Old 05/23/2012, 09:59 PM   #18 (permalink)
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With HP's track record ill take no news as good news for webOS
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Old 05/23/2012, 11:17 PM   #19 (permalink)
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who knows. could be.
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Old 05/24/2012, 03:35 AM   #20 (permalink)
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i think if you understood their financial situation you wouldn't even expect them to invest in something they've lost a billions on already webos.
...
Wrong again. I already said, that they DON't invest more, understandably so.

What I also said is, that if they want WebOS to become a success, they would have to invest more.

If you combine statement 1 and 2, it says:
"HP can't or won't risk to invest more money into WebOS, money that would be direly needed if WebOS is to become a success."

Has nothing to do with if I understand HPs financial situation or not.
There's not much that can't be understood anyway. If a company doesn't meet the financial expectations of the shareholders and have to lay off people again and again to save costs, there is really not much that's a mystery...
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