webOS Nation Forums >  webOS Discussion >  Open webOS General Discussion > Weaknesses to Attack
Weaknesses to Attack
  Reply
Like Tree3Likes
  • 2 Post By drahgon
  • 1 Post By zukny

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04/16/2012, 11:04 AM   #1 (permalink)
Member
 
Posts: 227
As we look towards new hardware coming out, the reality is that for any webOS hardware to be successful people will need a compelling reason to purchase it over an iPad, or an Android tablet (I focus on tablets as this will likely be the next hardware we see). This being the case, I do think a useful conversation for those looking to contribute to webOS (and an interesting conversation for those who root for it) is what does the competition not do well that might be an opportunity for webOS to peel away some customers.

For my two cents, I would initially focus on Android. The eventual goal would be to go head-to-head with the iPad, but an intermediate goal of being the default 2nd choice should be the focus. Having used Android for a while now (admittedly on a phone, not on a tablet), I'd say the biggest issue with it is that it does most everything OK, but nothing particularly well. So, if you pick a niche and and really blow out the features that niche cares about to make it a compelling choice for that group (you're building a base here).

Personally, I think there is a significant opening to peel off productivity enhancers, people whose primary focus is on getting things done and managing a busy life. The question then would be what features could be added to webOS that would sufficiently benefit they would purchase a new webOS device.

Interested to hear others thoughts on what gaps exist that webOS could fill in the market and/or how webOS might fill them.

Gargoyle
gargoylejps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04/16/2012, 05:22 PM   #2 (permalink)
Member
 
Posts: 562
I agree w/ toanedre

What we are hoping to achieve is monumental - even for corporations with the resources. There are so many 'barriers to entry' that our current lines of thinking will only work against us. For e.g., we cannot consider functionality like Siri or others requiring heavy remote processing because it assumes cloud infrastructure support. And since open source means orphan in this sense, we're staring at a dead end because no parent company is there to wholeheartedly support and steer things. This requires brainstorming and an out-of-the-box approach to the entire picture. W/ webOS is at the center on the drawing board, every system, synergistic or otherwise, has to be re-thought from the standpoint of open source, the community and how they realistically want to take on the journey. What is clear to me is that the current model that the others thrive on simply cannot be copied.

I admire the efficiency, purity and purpose of so-called grass roots approaches and there are many things that can work given the right plan and guidance. One of the things I always come back to, however, is timing. Great ideas always need perfect timing. So where is all of this babble going? Well, the short of it is that this may not be the time. Given the current state of things - Android/iOS mind share, or more appropriately, infections - and the host of events that negatively impacted not only webOS, but the idea itself that there is room for others to thrive, a realistic look at the question of the top three has to happen.

I see webOS in the same light as the Palm Foleo: a great idea w/ the wrong timing or combination of things that will eventually be copied by others. At conception, this wonderful OS was far ahead of its time (the idea of running around w/ a web server in your pocket is only just beginning to sound normal) and the hardware to efficiently run it has only caught up w/ it recently. Today, even though we have the hardware and the OS features and advantages are well appreciated, the combination of events and the above mind share have already occurred. So the chance for a top three or four spot has passed.

There are lots of events in the mobile space that can create second chances. It is, and will likely remain fickle and unpredictable. The question - and point - is whether webOS is or will be in the right position to capitalize on such a rare opportunity.

{I'll stop here; much too distracted/ elated by the way Wigan is charting its future at Arsenal's expense}
p41m3r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04/16/2012, 08:29 PM   #3 (permalink)
Member
 
drahgon's Avatar
 
Posts: 359
First there was the iphone, which revolutionized the market and was a phone of the educated and techno savvy crowd. However iphones were very expensive and only on ATT which not every one could use and not every one wanted to switch to.

Then comes along Android, starting off was very unpolished, but could do everything an iphone could do and was on most carrier with multiple different price ranges and you could put insurance on them unlike the iphone. They had better hardware, bigger sizes etc.

Android won simply by saturation. Now however that you can get an iphone for 99 dollars on contract with unlimited data on sprint for instance almost everyone I know that had an android now has an iphone. I was hanging with some friends and all their friends the other day and everyone kept losing their phone because out of the 15 people that were there 2 of us did not have an iphone 4.

My whole point to this is Android can easily be over taken as number 2. People did not buy it because they hate iphone or think it is a bad phone. Android was just there on the right carrier at the right price. now that everyone has an iphone or people are leaving android in droves. Same with the Android tablets saturate the market at the right price, right form factor. but people are itching to leave they just wont pay 500+ for an new new ipad and dont want to buy refurbished.

Now is the time for the next platform to take its spot as number 2. Webos could be that platform. Everyone already loves the TP and even people I know that have the iphone love it. It is a great tablet for the money and people already show that they will pay upwards of 300 for it. It they come out with a second generation around 350 with a serious upgraded OS it has a chance.

Now for me I think that productivity on the TP is where it is at. I love keeping my TP in Agenda in exhibition I am so busy right now I would forget my head if the agenda view wasnt telling me what my day looks like. However my pre 2 and TP calendars do not sync up very well and that creates HUGE issues with me. so I always write everything in my phone and use the TP just as quick glance but I always double check my phone as the official source
drahgon is offline   Reply With Quote
Liked by treodoc755 and creepycat like this.
Thanked by creepycat, Vistaus
Old 04/16/2012, 08:54 PM   #4 (permalink)
Member
 
zukny's Avatar
 
Posts: 150
I like this forum, as it is a option to share ideas & ways for webOS to come back into the fold..

In 2003, I sat in class w/ my friend as he took out his Sony Clie & recorded the lecture of the class. W/ 1.2mega pixel video & brilliant sound quality, he could record up to 1.5 hours at a time. (sound simple?) Well, w/ a clie, one can open up and show the screen & then close the clam like body but still rotate the camera to record where or what he wanted.. Something no phone could or has ever done.. For some reason, when you turn the screen off on a phone, it stops recording.. And some would say.. well it makes sense! well, what about when it's in a dark class room and you can't have your cell phone screen on?

My point to that crazy rant was, No phone or OS has ever taken full advantage of the school market! THE BIGGEST MARKET! Give me a tablet or Phone that can really take away the needs of: Books, Paper, Pens, Recording devices, & at the same time make it be capable of running 3d programs for (Engineers, Architects, Graphic Art students, & Multi-Media people)

You can sit here all day long and tell me the Ipad can do these things.. well your wrong! it can't.. If you tell me the Samsung Galaxy Note can.. well it's the closest thing I've seen to it, but it's still some time off.

If webOS attacks these core groups, I believe it has a big chance in the future.. Because if the art students fall in love w/ it, then it's only a matter of time before the world falls in love with it.!

Now ofcourse, that would call for Hardware & Software organization, and not just 1 or the other..
zukny is offline   Reply With Quote
Liked by johnjaycee likes this.
Old 04/16/2012, 08:55 PM   #5 (permalink)
Banned
 
Posts: 1,706
the real number two will be windows tablet if msft can actually get it right.

we get to play with new hardware and besides getting the ipad3 the first day, we also got the Samsung XE700T1A 11.6" LED Tablet PC - Wi-Fi - Intel Core i5 i5-2467M 1.60 GHz running windows 8 beta.

super expensive and as heavy as an ipad 1 but i will tell you that thing rocked and made me think the with the ability to run all my windows program in a tablet, i would have no problem switching from ipad to that... basically have full desktop power, and have it run tablet as smooth as an ipad2 (the ipad3 i felt a tick smoother).

if they can package and price it at ipad prices... it's a winner. big if. but windows 8 tablet felt really really good. i dont care for the tiles and os on a phone though.

Last edited by donm527; 04/17/2012 at 05:22 AM.
donm527 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04/18/2012, 06:49 AM   #6 (permalink)
Member
 
creepycat's Avatar
 
Posts: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by drahgon View Post
First there was the iphone, which revolutionized the market and was a phone of the educated and techno savvy crowd. However iphones were very expensive and only on ATT which not every one could use and not every one wanted to switch to.

Then comes along Android, starting off was very unpolished, but could do everything an iphone could do and was on most carrier with multiple different price ranges and you could put insurance on them unlike the iphone. They had better hardware, bigger sizes etc.

Android won simply by saturation. Now however that you can get an iphone for 99 dollars on contract with unlimited data on sprint for instance almost everyone I know that had an android now has an iphone. I was hanging with some friends and all their friends the other day and everyone kept losing their phone because out of the 15 people that were there 2 of us did not have an iphone 4.

My whole point to this is Android can easily be over taken as number 2. People did not buy it because they hate iphone or think it is a bad phone. Android was just there on the right carrier at the right price. now that everyone has an iphone or people are leaving android in droves. Same with the Android tablets saturate the market at the right price, right form factor. but people are itching to leave they just wont pay 500+ for an new new ipad and dont want to buy refurbished.

Now is the time for the next platform to take its spot as number 2. Webos could be that platform. Everyone already loves the TP and even people I know that have the iphone love it. It is a great tablet for the money and people already show that they will pay upwards of 300 for it. It they come out with a second generation around 350 with a serious upgraded OS it has a chance.

Now for me I think that productivity on the TP is where it is at. I love keeping my TP in Agenda in exhibition I am so busy right now I would forget my head if the agenda view wasnt telling me what my day looks like. However my pre 2 and TP calendars do not sync up very well and that creates HUGE issues with me. so I always write everything in my phone and use the TP just as quick glance but I always double check my phone as the official source
Still coveting my sprint pre-pubescent in hopes we'll be invited to the senior prom soon.

Still on disability so i cant afford a TP at scalper prices n i missed the whole fire sale thing on accounta i was trying my best to not die sooo.......

I need a pregodmother to bring me an updated pre n a touchpad. 16 woyld be just fine

Android sucks *** n this cheap tablet is making me foam at the mouth. Yah its cheap n yah it 'works' but its so backward/lame/slow minded/tedious! Like a well meant gradeschool clay bowl. Holds 'stuff' but theres a reason that the prized piece goes missing in even the most 'perfect' of family homes come moving or spring cleaning day...
__________________
Cat up a Treo (now on the Pre, yo!)
Creepycat at Creepycast Podcast

Palm user since "the one after the pilot" and still horde a drawer full of pda models as well as cradles and fold up keyboards because i was too greedy to let them "go" when they could have "went".
creepycat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04/18/2012, 12:10 PM   #7 (permalink)
pivotCE Developer
 
RumoredNow's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,231
Look at the economy... struggling along like a worn out plow horse. Trying to get the field tilled so it can be fertile again, but the poor beasty is gasping along best as it can.

An open source OS isn't going to attract big $ paternal support. They want huge flash and brand recognition. Quick, guaranteed profits to set into their reserves. Corporations are conservatively sitting on money in larger and larger piles. Ain't no trickle down economics happening this go around.

Who in the corporate world needs a webOS resurgence? Smaller outfits willing to take a risk in order to get some market share. The ones who are trying to up quality and keep cost down. I'm not a developer or programer - if I was I'd be trying to port webOS onto some cheaper devices to showcase to those manufacturers how much better a sleek, well thought out OS runs on such a device better than the bloated Android OS. Give them pause for thought and help them realize now is a good time to differentiate themselves from the rest of the clones. Not paying for an OS keeps the cost of the device down. That's where Windows Phone will fall flat with smaller manufacturers.

What consumers stand ready to embrace a webOS resurgence? The budget minded - those who need the most bang for their buck. People savvy enough to give up a little bit of oomph hardware wise for something that just works well and cleanly. Dumb phone users ready to upgrade to a full OS experience without committing to a long term contract in order to be able to afford a decent phone. The pay as you go market has no brand loyalty - they follow value and are a ripe target.

I was an android user some time ago but had to economize. Now I'm back to smart phones as my aged Pocket PC (iPAQ rx3115) is finally giving up the ghost. I need a device to not only keep up with talk, text and web based communications, but also to organize my modern life and add some fun to down times. I just got off a dumb phone and came to webOS. I could have spent $100 on a new (but slightly outdated hardware) phone running Android, but chose a used Pre 2 instead for the same amount as it has clear advantages to me - even without big $ corporate support.

It's just a matter of getting the word out to the correct niche designers and consumers of value based electronics...

My (noob) two cents.
__________________
Lumia 1520.3 (the Beastly Unicorn): Windows 10 Mobile

Windows Central Senior Ambassador

Mobile Nations Devotee

Last edited by RumoredNow; 04/18/2012 at 08:49 PM.
RumoredNow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04/18/2012, 12:47 PM   #8 (permalink)
Member
 
xandros9's Avatar
 
Posts: 952
Mindshare.
People don't care what this InternetExplorerO.S. is.

There was this poll, a large percentage believed the iPad to be the only pad.

Also, current ads "better" etc. aren't working.

Someone/we need to tell them what this is and why its better in a span of several seconds.
We also need to tell them how to use it. I go to a high-school focusing on sci & tech. Hardly anyone knows that the heck a back swipe is. Most people are not going to use something thats "hard" to use. I'm pretty sure iPhone has "how to turn it on" ads. or something like that.

Apple's multitasking UI is downright clunky (double tap? really?), but people don't care, since iOS is "years ahead" of anything else. (The multitasking gestures are nice though)

If it has an Apple logo, of course its going to sell well, no questioning that.

</semi-rant>

It has a reputation of being slow + laggy
we need to fix that.
"we're back."
__________________
HP Think Beyond Event - http://youtu.be/VnjwG7Z8AM8
m505 > Z|71 > T|C > T|T3 > LifeDrive > iPod touch 4
> Pre 2 > Treo Pro > Aria > Treo 650 > Lumia 920 >
Lumia 830 > 635 > iPhone 5s > Galaxy Alpha > Lumia 640 >
iPhone 5c > Nexus 5
My Palm OS Archive
xandros9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04/18/2012, 02:55 PM   #9 (permalink)
Member
 
Posts: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by drahgon View Post
First there was the iphone, which revolutionized the market and was a phone of the educated and techno savvy crowd. However iphones were very expensive and only on ATT which not every one could use and not every one wanted to switch to.

Then comes along Android, starting off was very unpolished, but could do everything an iphone could do and was on most carrier with multiple different price ranges and you could put insurance on them unlike the iphone. They had better hardware, bigger sizes etc.

Android won simply by saturation. Now however that you can get an iphone for 99 dollars on contract with unlimited data on sprint for instance almost everyone I know that had an android now has an iphone. I was hanging with some friends and all their friends the other day and everyone kept losing their phone because out of the 15 people that were there 2 of us did not have an iphone 4.

My whole point to this is Android can easily be over taken as number 2. People did not buy it because they hate iphone or think it is a bad phone. Android was just there on the right carrier at the right price. now that everyone has an iphone or people are leaving android in droves. Same with the Android tablets saturate the market at the right price, right form factor. but people are itching to leave they just wont pay 500+ for an new new ipad and dont want to buy refurbished.

Now is the time for the next platform to take its spot as number 2. Webos could be that platform. Everyone already loves the TP and even people I know that have the iphone love it. It is a great tablet for the money and people already show that they will pay upwards of 300 for it. It they come out with a second generation around 350 with a serious upgraded OS it has a chance.

Now for me I think that productivity on the TP is where it is at. I love keeping my TP in Agenda in exhibition I am so busy right now I would forget my head if the agenda view wasnt telling me what my day looks like. However my pre 2 and TP calendars do not sync up very well and that creates HUGE issues with me. so I always write everything in my phone and use the TP just as quick glance but I always double check my phone as the official source
I'm not sure I would call the iPhone's core audience the "educated and tech savvy". If anything, the iPhone was likely the beginning of the dumbing down of the smartphone. It did broaden the smartphone market by moving the focus, I think, from managing your life to media consumption (ie don't really care much about managing your tasks/calendar/contacts, but you do have your iTunes on your phone). Undoubtedly, the iPhone is the most successful smartphone and broadened the market, but I just don't see where it has brought anything terribly new to the concept, except maybe Siri; although, we'll have to see how successful that really is in the long-run. It did move a lot of Apple lovers into the market, broadened the market from the business/productivity focus and has had some amazing marketing.

Still, I do think you are right. In my experience, the vast majority of Android users are not in love with the OS and would be more than willing to jump ship if given a compelling reason. I'm just of the opinion the to give some people a compelling reason, whomever takes the lead in moving webOS forward and/or whomever next makes hardware for the OS will need to identify a market segment they intend to be their base. Once you've built a core audience you can start growing it, but webOS has to build a critical mass of core users before it can really start challenging the reigning champions.

I will also concur that webOS is worlds better at actually getting things done than everything else out there. I've said before that productivity and a professional focus plays to HP's strengths and is an area where iOS and Android are both weak.

JMHO

Gargoyle
gargoylejps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04/18/2012, 03:09 PM   #10 (permalink)
Member
 
Posts: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by xandros9 View Post
Mindshare.
People don't care what this InternetExplorerO.S. is.

There was this poll, a large percentage believed the iPad to be the only pad.

Also, current ads "better" etc. aren't working.

Someone/we need to tell them what this is and why its better in a span of several seconds.
We also need to tell them how to use it. I go to a high-school focusing on sci & tech. Hardly anyone knows that the heck a back swipe is. Most people are not going to use something thats "hard" to use. I'm pretty sure iPhone has "how to turn it on" ads. or something like that.

Apple's multitasking UI is downright clunky (double tap? really?), but people don't care, since iOS is "years ahead" of anything else. (The multitasking gestures are nice though)

If it has an Apple logo, of course its going to sell well, no questioning that.

</semi-rant>

It has a reputation of being slow + laggy
we need to fix that.
"we're back."

You lead me to wonder if there might not be an opportunity in more of a minimalist approach might not have a shot. Would a serious focus on the handful of things which really comprise probably 95% of our use of a tablet, or a smartphone: PIM, photos, music/audio, social media, email, video, document viewing and editing, and couple others. Really focus and deliver intuitive, consolidated and streamlined solutions on these core functions. The pitch could attack the bloat that is particularly bad on Android, maybe something like, "I don't have time to spend all day combing through apps looking for a decent task list, that's why I chose webOS.".

Gargoyle
gargoylejps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04/23/2012, 11:38 PM   #11 (permalink)
Member
 
Posts: 49
You guys sound like you're talking about --- and make me wistful for --- the awesome tools of PalmOS: Contact, Calendar, Task List integrated and efficient. RIP Palm.

But correct me if I'm wrong: doesn't Blackberry also excel at this type of functionality?

Which brings up another point.

WebOS is not the only platform fighting for survival. Blackberry and Windows Phone are fighting as well. Any path to viability for WebOS must consider not just Android and IOS's weaknesses, but the strengths of the other competitors for the "third option".

Blackberry and Windows also want to be the alternative to Android and IOS. And they have significant resources available to them that HP is not providing WebOS.

Perhaps the question should be: Is there a strength unique to open source that can benefit WebOS over all four of it's primary competitors?
__________________
Rut Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04/24/2012, 11:15 AM   #12 (permalink)
Member
 
bable's Avatar
 
Posts: 247
I freelance fix consumer tech toys as a side job so I talk to consumers all the time hearing all their complaints and passions. As sad it is Steve Jobs was right when he said that consumers don't know what thy want, they just know what they like. From what I've seen it breaks down like this, I'm not saying this is how the products actually work and in no way reflects my personal opinions, just how consumers in Colorado see them:
Apple: Consistent/easy/swanky/"The best"
Android: Cheaper/works well enough/I can skin it so I'm a hax0r/more open than apple
BlackBerry: Work requires it/I love physical keyboards/It's soooo secure
WebOS: Cheap/Old school/Rare/Faulty Hardware(damn HP!)

It kind of boils down to fan/addicts bogus at the consumer level, productivity is a buzzword that applies to business folks and that will be a hard arena to compete in when the playbook 4g with it's insane new bridge features+security comes out. Plus it's not actually the biggest market and after you create a fan following it's not even the most stable. I've converted a lot of people by loaning them a very customized 16gig TP/Pre2 for a day while I replace their screen or something at my home but the devices weren't pimped out like mine in the store, as a result we didn't end up with as many fans. A few months ago I loaned my 16g TP to a die hard android dev while I fixed a charging port on his Tranny3, after 48 hours with it he was converted and that's not a rare story. The UI is so intuitive and sexy that if someone spends 15 minutes surfing the web while facebooking(opening friends videos knowing they'll play) and chatting simultaneously(without going back to a clunky home screen) they'll fall in love with it, but the original devices need to look sexy enough that they want too. That's how we can beat Apple and Androids advertising, and that's a good thing, that all we need is to get people using the UI to win them over That's my two cents, it might be worth less since the coffee cart was closed this morning
__________________
"The Gods do not protect fools, fools are merely protected by more capable fools"
bable is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked By: zubiaur
Reply

 

Thread Tools
Display Modes



 


Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0