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2013 WebOS comeback year?
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Old 04/16/2012, 03:29 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Synergy is no longer a selling point - what does it do that is not available on other platforms?

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Sure, but Synergy does it better than any other implementation.
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Old 04/16/2012, 03:51 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Sure, but Synergy does it better than any other implementation.
In what way?
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Old 04/16/2012, 04:31 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Whether Synergy is better than its competition is a moot point. It certainly isn't going to sell webOS devices in 2013 any more than it did in 2009-2011. Can we all agree on that? Have we not learned anything at all from the past three years?
If you hang about someone is going to suggest ' real multi-tasking' and that fails 'elegance'.

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Old 04/16/2012, 05:00 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Apparently some of us haven't.
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Old 04/16/2012, 08:18 PM   #25 (permalink)
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i was just thinking tonight... in the desktop wars with windows... i think many can agree that windows won the war. has been on top for... decades?... and really no real challenger in the foreseeable future. the only thing threatening the pc market is the emergence of a new market.. mobile.

i kinda wonder... android and ios has such a huge head start and have the app support divided between them and pretty much the standard in every world market... that i think those two can dominate the mobile space for as long as windows dominated desktop pc's. ultimately ios would be on top because this fragmentation crap with android is just getting really stupid as more versions emerge.

apple couldnt elevate past microsoft until they dominated a new space... at this point apple may be the new microsoft until someone out there finds a the next generation platform that will leave the people dominating mobile behind.

look at rim, and nokia... look at microsoft and see how they are failing... have to pay developers for gods sake to get apps to their phone. if webos was kickstarted in 2013... hp/webos will be in worst shape than msft and you think hp can spend the money msft will to sell their os and pay developers to kick start the app development?

eh, just a thought.
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Old 04/16/2012, 11:46 PM   #26 (permalink)
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hp may have spent $3billion on palm and webOS but that number is misleading.

1.2 billion was in acquiring the company...
The remaining 1.8 billion was, arguably, not effectively spent.
Some was probably used for pensions for employees that left palm after the acquisition, as well as for other administrative purposes, and for negotiations and testing with carriers.

I may be wrong but very little r&d went into webOS after hp acquired it. The pre2, veer and pre3 were all palm product designs and somewhere already in their roadmap...hp money got them to market which palm probably couldn't do on their own.

We've seen evidence that the touchpad was already in hp's pipeline for android and was redirected to webOS after the acquisition.

some money was spent to get a few bigger apps on board and to retain existing devs, and some was used to advertise the veer and touchpad. However the advertising was abysmal so a waste of money imho.

So in effect hp didn't spend much on webos to make it succeed. They wanted a quickfix to get into the mobile market but half assed the attempt and as soon as they realized the hurdles ahead they threw in the towel before heaven forbid they actually tried to be creative and innovative.

Meanwhile the customers suffered.
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Old 04/16/2012, 11:48 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Palm spent about $400-$500 million a year in operating expenses in 2009-2010 prior to being bought by HP, according to their SEC filings. By comparison, companies like RIM are spending about $5 billion a year including billions on marketing alone.
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Old 04/17/2012, 12:53 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Throw good hardware at it and 2013 will be a good year. If Lumia 900's sales (promising) is an indication, people aren't necessarily tied to the OS but would go for sexy hardware at an attractive price.
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Old 04/17/2012, 02:48 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Not likely to be a popular opinion, but the problem I see for WebOS is that in today's market it's no longer a game changer.

Don't get me wrong. When the Touchpad came out last year I was highly singing its praises in what little time I could before it was pulled from the market. In particular the multitasking. But having used the Ice Cream Sandwich mod on it for the last two months I now see very little in WebOS that I can't find elsewhere. I've actually come to *prefer* the multitasking in Android, given that it takes less clicks/swipes to get around and that these tasks are more efficiently processed by freezing in the background unless needed (i.e. music players).

It makes sense to me seeing that the lead developer of WebOS (Matias Duarte) now leads up the Android team. Without that element to differentiate itself, how in the world is WebOS going to gain market share at this point? Where would they even find the design talent at this stage after all the brain drain that occurred?

I now spend 95% of my time in Android given the breadth of the application marketplace and the vistas that this opens up for tablet use. I've long held out hope that something good would come of WebOS, but as its ideas get replicated elsewhere it's hard to envision any sort of path out of the woods.
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Old 04/17/2012, 05:46 AM   #30 (permalink)
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A webOS comeback? Dream on guys....

I thought we'd all woken up by now and realised webOS failed big time and nobody's waiting for it.
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Old 04/17/2012, 09:04 AM   #31 (permalink)
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I don't think anyone is asking for webOS to suddenly come back in 2013 and leave Apple and Android in the dust as much as one may wish. If it can get meager but decent-enough sales (enough to turn profit and justify investment by OEMs), then that's all we can ask for at this time. Lumia 800 is doing very well in Europe. You just never know how fast and how much up an downs we have in the mobile industry. I'm looking at it as glass half full.
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Old 04/17/2012, 09:31 AM   #32 (permalink)
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A webOS comeback? Dream on guys....

I thought we'd all woken up by now and realised webOS failed big time and nobody's waiting for it.
Anything that keeps it from dying altogether can be viewed as a comeback at this point. One tiny little step at a time.
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Old 04/17/2012, 11:00 AM   #33 (permalink)
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hp may have spent $3billion on palm and webOS but that number is misleading.

1.2 billion was in acquiring the company...
The remaining 1.8 billion was, arguably, not effectively spent.
Some was probably used for pensions for employees that left palm after the acquisition, as well as for other administrative purposes, and for negotiations and testing with carriers.

I may be wrong but very little r&d went into webOS after hp acquired it. The pre2, veer and pre3 were all palm product designs and somewhere already in their roadmap...hp money got them to market which palm probably couldn't do on their own...

So in effect hp didn't spend much on webos to make it succeed. They wanted a quickfix to get into the mobile market but half assed the attempt and as soon as they realized the hurdles ahead they threw in the towel before heaven forbid they actually tried to be creative and innovative..
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Let's think rationally about this - 2013 is going to see the iphone 5 and the ipad 4, it's going to see (if rumours are true) google make a big push with an affordable but powerful tablet, it's going to see samsung et al. pushing out quad-core monsters.

OK, they aren't going to catch them in a year - what else is happening - you are going to have nokia fighting for survival and throwing hundreds of millions of dollars at it, you are going to have RIM launching BB10 and fighting for relevance and throwing hundreds of millions of dollars at it, Amazon is likely to release more fire tablets backed by massive marketing power, Microsoft are going to continue to throw money at windows phone and also window 8 tablets.

Both good points. And 3 billion (even though that is oft quoted bus misleading figure as enumerated by MDSmartphone) is peanuts in this sector. But as much as I am a webOS fan, we can't ignore the fact that the market has changed. If 3 billion was to steep for HP a year ago, there is no way they are getting traction for any less now.

As CKG (and other) have pointed out, the competition is spending tons of money, orders of magnitude more than HP ever spent... and they all have a big headstart on HP as well. So this pipe dream of webOS rising from the ashes (a dream I'd like to share) flies in the face of logic.

In the final analysis, you have to have a product that enough people want or "need" in order to maintain viability. The technical merits of a product don't matter as much as either meeting a need or creating a need that your product can fill. Pet Rocks - a 70's fad -may have actually sold as many units as Palm did of the Touchpad. No argument which is more useful, but timing, marketing, and price made for success.

Phones are their best bet as people NEED phones and change them frequently and would be more willing to put up with its shortcomings if their core needs are met. But they need too many other players they need to have cooperate with them and they have burned those bridges but good.

Even any "grass roots" movement would need lots of seed money to get off the ground. Multi boot plans are for fans, if I'm buying a device merely for Android or Windows8 , why get a Touchpad at all? And if I do nothing but run only some other OS, how does it help the webOS brand?
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Old 04/17/2012, 02:25 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I like how we are tossing around billion dollar figures and saying that HP didn't invest enough in webOS. If HP were able to manage to eek out a $100 gross margin on each and every device that they made - and there have been plenty of threads that outline how difficult that would be given a retail price of $300 to $400 - HP would make $100 million dollars in gross margin for every million units sold. If you're expecting HP to invest a billion dollars then you need at least 10 million device sales at these margins.

I remember that HP's goal for the first year of TP sales was a lofty 4 million units. They only ended up selling something like a million units or so at a signifciant loss. That's why they gave up so quickly. They set a pretty low bar for TP sales, so when it was clear that they wouldn't achieve it they knew it was time to throw in the towel.

The point is that it's easy to say that HP needs to invest billions in R&D and marketing to make webOS successful. What's not easy is to figure out how HP is going to make that money back in hardware sales or software licensing fees or whatever. If you do the math, it's clear that there isn't a good way to recoup any significant investment in webOS. It's obvious, to me, that this won't happen.
Maybe I need to make my point clearer, that what I was trying to get at - forget actual success, to be in the game, they need to investments hundreds of millions if not billions and HP aren't going to do that - which is why the idea that 2013 is going to be the big comeback year is a nonsense.
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Old 04/17/2012, 02:43 PM   #35 (permalink)
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So you mean that Megs words will come true of a new webOS-gadget, but that it will be a HP Touchpad Leo II?
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Old 04/17/2012, 03:15 PM   #36 (permalink)
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So you mean that Megs words will come true of a new webOS-gadget, but that it will be a HP Touchpad Leo II?

Q: How do you know a HP executive is lying?

A: Their lips are moving.


Don't listen to what corporate types tell you, watch instead what they actually do.
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Old 04/17/2012, 04:00 PM   #37 (permalink)
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True. But you have to admit that up till today Meg did do better than Leo and Hurd, so even though there is a chance she's lying, I have more trust in believing Meg since she actually does better and has fulfilled a few promises already.
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Old 04/17/2012, 04:30 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Throw good hardware at it and 2013 will be a good year. If Lumia 900's sales (promising) is an indication, people aren't necessarily tied to the OS but would go for sexy hardware at an attractive price.
The interesting quote from that article is "no one comes into the store and asks for a Windows Phone" and that Lumia handsets would be "easier to sell" if they ran Android." Any problems aside Android phones have a big ecosystem and there's lots of phones. It's like windows on a desktop. You don't have to like it. You just use it cause it's available and prevalent and it's good enough.

WebOS has the same problem. Nobody goes into a store asking for WebOS. And right now, from what i read, people actually do seem to be tied to Android. As they say that Nokia phone would be an easier sell if it had Android on it.

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If 3 billion was to steep for HP a year ago, there is no way they are getting traction for any less now.
That right there speaks to me as to why any big financial push won't come from HP as least anytime soon. They financially can't support to put billions into webos, when their profits are declining.

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The point is that it's easy to say that HP needs to invest billions in R&D and marketing to make webOS successful. What's not easy is to figure out how HP is going to make that money back in hardware sales or software licensing fees or whatever. If you do the math, it's clear that there isn't a good way to recoup any significant investment in webOS. It's obvious, to me, that this won't happen.
A very good point on the financial reality. For HP put significant money towards it there has to be a realistic path to profitability that they can envision. This many millions of sales with x level of profitability growing at this rate. And right now i don't think they see it.
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Old 04/17/2012, 04:49 PM   #39 (permalink)
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But what if Flying Saucers land here sometime in 2012 and start distributing Auto-Translate Global Comms Tablets to all 7 Billion of us.. (so that we can all talk to and understand each other despite the 'language barriers').. won't that be a bit of a 'hard act to follow'.. webOS, or dare I say it, no webOS?

Or maybe that's what Meg has got in mind already!!
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Old 04/17/2012, 05:23 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Come on guys, you aren't realy dumb enough to think that hardware sales is the only way that money gets made in the mobile ecosystem and yet everyone on the TP cries because they can't watch Netflix...

There are plenty of revenue streams out there that are user-based/subscriber-based/transaction-based/etc that are capable of making way more than the stupid $100 per unit that you guys think is the only source of income.

Think about it, Netflix keeps telling you that there aren't contracts in place. You should understand instantly that once contracts are in place, there is a revenue stream. This is why Netflix is NOT on the TP.
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