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Should HP make a "Nexus"?
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Old 03/13/2012, 02:18 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by CGK View Post
How do I explain that 6 hardcore fans bid $47 for a phone? didn't my post that you quoted explain it in plenty of detail?
All right,
Let me be very clear "I find it amusing that the original Pre, the one we call the Pre- on Sprint has any bids".

We can debate forever if 6 people having 20 bids is called demand or debate on the logistics involved in manufacturing a device to attract OEMs. The point is should HP make one? Most on this forum say Yes. The phone will show webOS on a new form factor. It might attract some company.
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Old 03/13/2012, 02:24 PM   #82 (permalink)
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We could go around in circles about this forever, so I'll leave it at this point - if someone ever puts out some actual hardware we have something to talk about (and if someone ponies up the $5 billion or more that is needed to be competitive, then we really have something to talk about), at the moment we are trying to bring down clouds by throwing our shoes at them.
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Old 03/13/2012, 02:28 PM   #83 (permalink)
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And I find it even more amusing that there are folks buying the Pre2 for Verizon since September 2011 even after HP killed their phone business. As you can see from the reviews not everybody is happy with it.
But its interesting to know that there are folks who despite the stores not carrying Pre 2 are paying anywhere between $ 49.00 to $ 149.00 on a two year contract for this phone.

Set Your Location

I am convinced that there will be customers for the slab webOS phone if HP made one.
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Old 03/13/2012, 02:30 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by CGK View Post
We could go around in circles about this forever, so I'll leave it at this point - if someone ever puts out some actual hardware we have something to talk about (and if someone ponies up the $5 billion or more that is needed to be competitive, then we really have something to talk about), at the moment we are trying to bring down clouds by throwing our shoes at them.
Good.
Lets see what the future holds for us.
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Old 03/13/2012, 02:52 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Zukny View Post
To say "Every single webos phone released was a flop" Is just straight up absolute crap. (unless you are really only counting the pre)

1. The Treo650 was one of the most popular smart phones for YEARS!
2. The Pre3 never even had an opportunity.

That's just delusional. Yes EVERY SINGLE webos phone; EVERY one flopped. I'm sorry. Not one of them got traction. Which one was a success? The Pre, the Pre 2, the Veer, the Pixi? Sorry, most of these phones even when they were announced had horribly low sales numbers. Sure they have a loyal following of webos users but it's tiny. There's nothing wrong with liking webos phones but to the revisionist history is just wrong. Palm got sold because they couldn't move enough phones. Sprint bailed and refused flat stopped carrying Palm products. That's a flop. The Pre 2 barely got a release in the U.S. It did worse the then original Pre. HP flat stopped declared they wouldn't even make phones if they made any hardware again. Sorry, its a nice layout for the an OS but it did not sell well at all. And the Treo650 wasn't a webos phone. So how popular it was for years is not relevant to webos.


As for the "Nexus form." Every Pre HP and Palm have released has been a "nexus" phone. Nexus is just the raw android os, without any skins, with the custom hardware specs google decides on. That's exactly what the Pre line is. Webos isn't licensed, there's no group of manufactures skinning it. It was always HP/Palm's raw OS with custom specs designed by the OS maker. That's exactly what every Pre was. A flagship phone by HP/Palm. Calling it "nexus" does zero. It changes nothing. It woudln't mean they do a single thing different. Just like with the Pre, HP would still pick the specs, and put their best version of the OS on the phone. And nobody knows of any improvements to the os, i'm gonna guess, outside of the webosinternals community. What changes are there? Yes the old phones flopped. And all that is being suggested is do just what they did before without any changes but calling it "nexus." Until they make significant improvements and add an ecosystem the result of releasing that phone will be exactly the same as before.
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Old 03/13/2012, 03:56 PM   #86 (permalink)
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That's just delusional. Yes EVERY SINGLE webos phone; EVERY one flopped. I'm sorry. Not one of them got traction. Which one was a success? The Pre, the Pre 2, the Veer, the Pixi? Sorry, most of these phones even when they were announced had horribly low sales numbers. Sure they have a loyal following of webos users but it's tiny. There's nothing wrong with liking webos phones but to the revisionist history is just wrong. Palm got sold because they couldn't move enough phones. Sprint bailed and refused flat stopped carrying Palm products. That's a flop. The Pre 2 barely got a release in the U.S. It did worse the then original Pre. HP flat stopped declared they wouldn't even make phones if they made any hardware again. Sorry, its a nice layout for the an OS but it did not sell well at all. And the Treo650 wasn't a webos phone. So how popular it was for years is not relevant to webos.


As for the "Nexus form." Every Pre HP and Palm have released has been a "nexus" phone. Nexus is just the raw android os, without any skins, with the custom hardware specs google decides on. That's exactly what the Pre line is. Webos isn't licensed, there's no group of manufactures skinning it. It was always HP/Palm's raw OS with custom specs designed by the OS maker. That's exactly what every Pre was. A flagship phone by HP/Palm. Calling it "nexus" does zero. It changes nothing. It woudln't mean they do a single thing different. Just like with the Pre, HP would still pick the specs, and put their best version of the OS on the phone. And nobody knows of any improvements to the os, i'm gonna guess, outside of the webosinternals community. What changes are there? Yes the old phones flopped. And all that is being suggested is do just what they did before without any changes but calling it "nexus." Until they make significant improvements and add an ecosystem the result of releasing that phone will be exactly the same as before.
I am not saying Pre/Pre plus/Pre2 are successful phones. But ,what is a good sales number to call a phone success ?
As for HP doing a Nexus thing , the analogy is to make a super spec phone that is a 4 plus inch slab. Many have been saying this since 2009. Make a 4 inch slab. No one at Palm listened.
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Old 03/13/2012, 07:38 PM   #87 (permalink)
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CGK,
Know what, I think there is a demand, though not millions but some.

How do you explain this ? there are 20 bids for a Sprint Palm Pre.

Palm Pre - 8GB - Black (Sprint) Smartphone + Touchstone Charger and Extras (805931036766) | eBay
Well, first there are only 5 bidders for those 20 bids, and if you look you can obviously see that 15 of those bids is by someone just trying to find what the max bid was for the phone.

If you think 20 bids for a Pre on ebay signifies demand, what about the other 20 or so Pres that are listed there that have 0 bids?
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Old 03/13/2012, 08:59 PM   #88 (permalink)
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I am not saying Pre/Pre plus/Pre2 are successful phones. But ,what is a good sales number to call a phone success ?
From a broad standpoint, enough to keep the company from betting sold or canceling the project. And that's more the the couple million they got over a few years. But take the Galaxy S2, it sold 20 million in 10 months. That's successful. Hell if every webos phone had sold 6 or 7 million i'd have been impressed. That said "success" is gonna be subjective. HP and Palm were looking for profit off of hardware where as Android and Microsoft aren't making hardware so i'd guess the make profit a lot easier plus they want share. Plus microsoft has a cash position that means it can tolerate lower sales much longer plus, again, they are making the money off of just licensing the OS. But take Samsung, i'd bet the profit point is likely lower since unlike HP or Palm, Samsung makes its own, displays, memory, and processors three of the more expensive parts of the phones. So I'd bet "success" is at a different level. Plus Samsung is fricken huge. They build buildings, and tankers, and oil platforms, microwaves, dishwashers, tvs, other appliances. I'd bet they can tolerate more losses then a Palm could have. HTC this year isn't selling phones very well at all so i'd consider that a failure because unlike apple they are trying to turn profits off every handset. But honestly even when i had my Pre minus i almost never saw webos devices in the wild. Few of my peers even heard of the phones. That's mindshare and notoriety but it also indicates to me that the product hasn't been popular enough to get any word of mouth. And when i went into stores i rarely saw people playing with webos phones, at least after, the first weeks of the launch. I've only seen one touchpad and that guy had a pre too (hated it buy the way and only got the touchpad to put android on it) but he does have one. But what success is is subjective in the sense that. But after 3 years and barely having 4 million webos users total and that's not one device that included the tons of people that were on pre minuses. And considering the Palm basically went under i don't see how people can seriously claim that these phones are successful product lines. Also if their market share had been growing rather then declining or being stagnant i think at least one could argue they were moving in the right direction. Share wasn't increasing though. even during the Pre 2, Veer, and Pre 3 in Europe.

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Originally Posted by gbp View Post
As for HP doing a Nexus thing , the analogy is to make a super spec phone that is a 4 plus inch slab. Many have been saying this since 2009. Make a 4 inch slab. No one at Palm listened.
HP isn't making any phones that's one thing. "Super spec?" well HP thought it did that with the pre line. What's being asked, make the best phone you can, was what HP and Palm have always thought they were doing. And on you slab point. Well you'll get no argument from me that they should have made a slab but i don't think it integral to the idea of the "nexus" line. Regardless, there nobody ever skinning webos. Every top line phone they made was their best, their nexus. Every flagship phone they made was their "super spec" phone. It's been done, aside from making a slab.

But to me this idea is based on the flawed idea that if only it had high specs it would sell. I fundamentally think that the problems of webos phones were a combination of many things not just one. Things like the mediocre hardware quality, mediocre design, yes flaws in the operating system, a phone that lacked much "cool" factor, a failure to quickly update flaws, failure to update existing apps or add features, a mere lack of form factors (slabs like you say), a lack of popular apps, the lack of a media ecosystem. Thus i think just putting the same OS, in they same ecosytem without knowing what improvements there are or making no improvements, with just better specs won't do anything to help webos. It needs what it's always needed; billions of investment to fix all the issues.
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Old 03/13/2012, 11:49 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Geez why can't people focus on the fact that a "nexus" webOS device has nothing to do with market share, profits, past failures of the pre series of phones, slabs or slideout keyboards, what palm shoulda woulda coulda do...

webOS as we once knew it, the pre series of phones that many on THIS website love...for better or for worse...is DEAD. Gone. Kaput.

HP has set aside as a pet project, the open sourcing of a NEW webOS...open sourced...with an ultimate goal of WHO KNOWS? Phones, tablets, toasters, in dash car navigation systems???, etc. What most are concerned about on THIS website are smartphones...

IF hp has a plan for smartphones either for itself or any company to license open webOS for smartphones...and that's a huge and questionable IF...they will need to build a reference hardware that is a top of the line that can showcase the new webOS...again...not meant for marketing, not meant for the everyday consumer...the open webOS "nexus" device. No question, no diggity, no doubt.
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Old 03/14/2012, 05:14 AM   #90 (permalink)
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Geez why can't people focus on the fact that a "nexus" webOS device has nothing to do with market share, profits, past failures of the pre series of phones, slabs or slideout keyboards, what palm shoulda woulda coulda do...

webOS as we once knew it, the pre series of phones that many on THIS website love...for better or for worse...is DEAD. Gone. Kaput.

HP has set aside as a pet project, the open sourcing of a NEW webOS...open sourced...with an ultimate goal of WHO KNOWS? Phones, tablets, toasters, in dash car navigation systems???, etc. What most are concerned about on THIS website are smartphones...

IF hp has a plan for smartphones either for itself or any company to license open webOS for smartphones...and that's a huge and questionable IF...they will need to build a reference hardware that is a top of the line that can showcase the new webOS...again...not meant for marketing, not meant for the everyday consumer...the open webOS "nexus" device. No question, no diggity, no doubt.
Well said. This is the exact reasoning behind my posting this theoretical question.
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Old 03/14/2012, 06:35 AM   #91 (permalink)
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not meant for marketing, not meant for the everyday consumer...the open webOS "nexus" device. No question, no diggity, no doubt.
android nexus devices are for the consumer. i still say your idea of nexus is just wrong. Nexus was google's flagship phone. not just for insiders or developers. call it what you want but HP did that already and it didnt work.
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Old 03/14/2012, 07:23 AM   #92 (permalink)
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But it also misses the logic that developing a flagship top of the line phone is done because it's expected to generate hundreds of millions of dollars in sales - because it has to to pay for the development costs of the phone. Spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a flagship WebOS phone that they don't expect to sell to more than a few thousand people... how does that make any sense?
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Old 03/14/2012, 07:32 AM   #93 (permalink)
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android nexus devices are for the consumer. i still say your idea of nexus is just wrong. Nexus was google's flagship phone. not just for insiders or developers. call it what you want but HP did that already and it didnt work.
I believe the Nexus has a duality to its existence. While it is available to consumers, and originally an attempt at Google to have the ability to release phones without major carrier influence, it has evolved into more if a cutting edge developer phone to showcase new Android versions and it's features, as envisioned by Google. You can walk into any carrier store and the Nexus is not pushed onto the consumer as much as the offerings of non AOSP model phones. However, the Nexus sets the tone for the forthcoming generation of devices, and allows developers early access to the new release.
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Old 03/14/2012, 07:48 AM   #94 (permalink)
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The very first Nexus phone was definitely a proof of concept (or proof of Google's vision). They wanted to showcase a state of the art phone, running plain vanilla Android not garbaged up by the OEM's overlay.

That original reason may have gotten watered down in later Nexus phone releases.

I think a Nexus-like proof of concept phone or series of phones might help prime the pump for open webOS. But webOS needs to be ready to work (and compete) on a phone - it needs a stable of critical apps and smooth RELIABLE sync to standard web services, already in place before launch. A hard task for an open soource community to do, but not impossible.
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Old 03/14/2012, 07:53 AM   #95 (permalink)
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I hope so
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Old 03/14/2012, 07:55 AM   #96 (permalink)
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The very first Nexus phone was definitely a proof of concept (or proof of Google's vision). They wanted to showcase a state of the art phone, running plain vanilla Android not garbaged up by the OEM's overlay.
Sort of - there were actually two versions - the vanilla version that was intended for consumers and also the Android Dev Phone 1 which wasn't. The commercial version was clearly intended for consumers and was sold by carriers as such - t-mobile in the US sold one million units on it's own.
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Old 03/14/2012, 08:11 AM   #97 (permalink)
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android nexus devices are for the consumer. i still say your idea of nexus is just wrong. Nexus was google's flagship phone. not just for insiders or developers. call it what you want but HP did that already and it didnt work.
Really?
The nexus one was made availablle to no carriers.
The nexus s was released on sprint...
The galaxy nexus is only available on vzw for now, sprint shortly.
They were all also made available unlocked or overseas.

neither sprint nor vzw pushes the nexus devices on consumers...walk into a sprint or vzw store...its all about the iphone and droid branded android devices on vzw. None of these devices are ever sold out on carriers or on backorder.

I have never had the feeling that the nexus devices are meant to be "iphone killers" but rather as phones that showcase the latest and greatest android OS.

Let's be honest- none of us know what plans hp has up its sleeve...heck I wouldn't be surprised if hp itself doesn't know what it plans on doing...but if there is any inkling that they want to release any open webOS hardware or hope that others adopt it, they will need showcase hardware. I don't see anyway else around it.

Just look at all the tech at ces...companies all invest in hardware...many will not make it to the market and are just proof of concept devices, others come out in only limited quantities, and yet others are only released in limited markets (hp slate anyone?). So why are many so against the concept that hp would do the same with open webOS?

Open up your minds...palm webOS is gone.
Open webOS has a pulse...
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Old 03/14/2012, 08:16 AM   #98 (permalink)
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The nexus one was made availablle to no carriers.
Because google wanted to see if it could cut out the carriers and sell directly via it's own store... that model didn't work and it was then sold via some carriers.

You can't take those things out of content.
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Old 03/14/2012, 08:18 AM   #99 (permalink)
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Because google wanted to see if it could cut out the carriers and sell directly via it's own store... that model didn't work and it was then sold via some carriers.

You can't take those things out of content.
Sure I can...their business model failed just like palms and hp's.

Time to try something else...
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Old 03/14/2012, 01:24 PM   #100 (permalink)
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I don't think hp can afford to lose more money on webos. They already lost so much overpaying for Palm and at this point just a handful of people are still interesting in webos. There is just no way it can compete at this point...it already lost the opportunity.
Agree but until HP announces such we have to keep up hope...
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