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webOS: The Plan
View Poll Results: Would you regularly give money to a community effort to support and develop webOS?
No, Never 21 10.61%
Yes, I'd start giving right away 76 38.38%
Yes, but only after I saw some results 101 51.01%
Voters: 198. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01/07/2012, 09:27 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Or we can just easily start by optimizing webOS 3.x so that the h/w requirements are lower and thus cheaper.
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Old 01/07/2012, 10:08 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Plans need timelines and milestones, until HP provides specific information about when it will Open sourced, what the license will be and what has been stripped out for legal reasons, there is nothing to plan around. You might as well spend your days trying to bring down clouds by throwing your shoes at them.

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Old 01/07/2012, 10:15 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Plans need timelines and milestones, until HP provides specific information about when it will Open sourced, what the license will be and what has been stripped out for legal reasons, there is nothing to plan around. You might as well spend your days trying to bring down clouds by throwing your shoes at them.

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We can already gather some plans so that we can start quicker when the open sourcing is done.
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Old 01/07/2012, 10:32 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Its easier to say than do but I am willing to give it a try.

I don't know how much people have some spare time but this thing needs some serious optimization. If optimized properly maybe it can run on current hardware for another two years or so. Unfortuately I am not sure whats going on under the hood so I cant help in that sense.

Where I can help is when it comes to webOS basic features and apps that need a lot of improvement as well.
I was thinking of posting my set of features how to improve basic apps such as Contacts, Messaging, etc. Maybe I will just do that.

I hope that community as a whole will work on one or two projects instead of every person trying to create the same thing over and over again.
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Old 01/07/2012, 01:20 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Yes, I think HP will probably remain in the role of gatekeeper, exercising control over what changes and additions it permits to become part of the core kernel. But I'm reasonably sure they're not going to exert the tight control that Google exerts on Android; that would require them to continue investing money at levels they want to get away from.
Google doesn't exercise any control over the code, just take a look at Android on the Amazon Fire. The only version of Android it had control of was Honeycomb and even that's been released into the wild. Google gives out the source code and people can do with it what they want, which leads a little to the fragmentation of the OS. If HP adds restrictions to the code then it's NOT open source.
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Old 01/07/2012, 02:12 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Hi kalel33,

My fault for not saying it clearly. What I meant, is that Google devotes significant internal resources to developing Android, Google determines what the priorities are, and when they're good and ready they will release a new version, and then when they're good and ready again, they'll release the source code for that version. That's what I mean by tight control. There are other open source projects where things are a lot looser - most contributions coming from people outside the organization running the project, people decide on their own what they feel they want to work on, and up to date source code is made available immediately - even nightly.
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Old 01/07/2012, 02:37 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Hi kalel33,

My fault for not saying it clearly. What I meant, is that Google devotes significant internal resources to developing Android, Google determines what the priorities are, and when they're good and ready they will release a new version, and then when they're good and ready again, they'll release the source code for that version. That's what I mean by tight control. There are other open source projects where things are a lot looser - most contributions coming from people outside the organization running the project, people decide on their own what they feel they want to work on, and up to date source code is made available immediately - even nightly.
Oh, I see. It's like Cyanogenmod. They take Googles code and improve upon it how they like and then Google adds to the next version the things they liked from the independent devs. I think you could say the same thing about Touchwiz with Samsung and Sense for HTC. I am wondering if HP will put forth the effort to continue making updates and releasing new source code like Google does but I doubt that HP will put near the money or manpower into pushing WebOS forward, like Google does for Android.
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Old 01/07/2012, 03:02 PM   #28 (permalink)
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My God, what an absolute fantasy! HP spent BILLIONS, with a "B", and failed. Do you people really believe you're going to homebrew a viable commercial product? And some dreamers are talking about putting together hardware? With donations? Might as well have a lemonade stand to buy yourself an aircraft carrier. I don't want to **** on anyone's parade, but here's your real timeline for open source:

6 months- HP: "We're working on it."
1 year- HP: "Just tidying up, it'll be available in the coming months."
1.5 years- HP: "Okay guys, here's a stripped down version of WebOS for you. Go make magic, champ! Guys? Guys? Is anyone there?"

Assuming there is not a change in leadership at HP in the next year and they don't quietly forget the whole thing. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but get real. Don't waste too much emotional and financial capital on something that just ain't gonna happen.
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Old 01/07/2012, 03:59 PM   #29 (permalink)
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This is the first serious thread I see challenging the community to come up with something for webOS going forward and providing ideas in which direction to think.

From a project management perspective I suggest you start defining some clear objectives. You might wish to start with a dreaming phase just to get the creative fluids going. Once you got a whole list we need to descend to earth and apply common sense. Look at the feasibility of each objective. Best way to do that is thinking about resources (people, money) required for the each objective. e.g. We want new hardware, how much money is requires to develop prototypes, how to raise that, how many developers and testers would we need, what would be their incentives?
As in a real business case you might wish to work with a spreadsheet where each idea/objective competes with the others in a couple of areas e.g. Investment in $$$, required knowledge, risks, competition, costs to market, fits with other strategies (e.g. HPs) and in this case the number of people willing to spend time on it (e.g. With survey)

Ok, I'll stop here with the theory. It's getting boring and difficult.

Let's grab the back of a paper beer coaster and run a few of the ideas already raised in this thread and add some cons and pros. It's just a starter and maybe we should run a couple of polls to see which ideas are shared in the community and which are not, just to keep our streetwise factor which we apparently have over HP.

As an eCoasters app which collaborates with webOSnation is still missing, my list typed up below:
Hardware scenario 1 (develop new prototype with community and raise funds to manufacture it)
$$$ =Medium/High (Prototyping is not that cheap yet)
Knowledge = High (some hardware design gurus required)
Risks = Medium/High (if prototype is yesterdays hardware it would likely fail)
Community attractiveness: High (we all want new shiny hardware ;-)
Community involvement: Low (most of us have no clue how to develop hardware)

Hardware scenario 2 (make business case and ask someone to produce)
$$$ = Low (sell a good idea to someone else and make them believe it works for them)
Knowledge = Low/Medium (need some marketing and business case skills)
Risks = Low (low for community, high for manufacturer)
Community attractiveness: High (same as above)
Community involvement: Low/medium (same as above)

Port webOS to existing phone or tablet
$$$ = medium (developers need to be paid)
Knowledge = high (need some webOS / Linux / hardware gurus
Risk = medium (supportability of new hardware is tricky)
Community attractiveness: High (we all want new shiny hardware ;-)
Community involvement: Low (most of us have no clue how to port an OS)

New webOS features
$$$ = medium (developers need to be paid)
Knowledge = high (need some webOS gurus)
Risks = low/medium
Community attractiveness: Medium (instead of new hardware, new features would be great, always good to show off to friends, but must be the latest)
Community involvement: Low/Medium (some smart guys might come up with something)

Patches / bug fixes for webOS
$$$ = low (usually easier than new features)
Knowledge = Medium (need some webOS specialists)
Risks = low
Community attractiveness: Low/Medium
Community involvement: Medium

New Apps
$$$ = low/medium (depends on app, think incentives)
Knowledge = Medium (need some webOS specialists)
Risks= low
Community attractiveness: Low / Medium / High (depends on app)
Community involvement: Medium

There might be more but it's just a start. I personally don't believe we should try to take the role of HP and try to develop and market new hardware. There are others who can do this better. Just finding them and making them believe is a tough nut.

Also we need to rely on HP to release the code and come up with a plan to maintain and update the code. Not as strict as Google maybe, but they need to provide some guidance I think. Regarding hardware support, the best we can do is provide support in fora either here or somewhere else. For more complex support there are some models out there where the users elects the best solution for the user. The user opts what the solution is worth (usually with a minimum dollar amount).

And yes, whatever way we go we still need to raise a lot of money. We need to get organised around this. Maybe we can ask HP to use their app catalog as a payment model. Instead of downloading an app you would just get a thank you and the money would go to a certain developer or cause.

Pff, that's a lot in one post. If you made it to here, you're likely to really care. If we have enough of people who do care and are willing to spend some time or money than we can make this work and aim for the third biggest mobile OS on the market!

Comments, new ideas, solid business cases and donating billionaires are welcome!

Last edited by renater; 01/07/2012 at 04:19 PM. Reason: Typos
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Old 01/07/2012, 04:34 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Might be a nice idea to get a few sections opened for some of these ideas to be discussed easier. We already have sections for patches/bugfixes as well as apps, how about one for hardware ports and/or one for new features? That would make discussions much easier than one AIO thread where ideas may get lost.

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Old 01/07/2012, 04:42 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Or we can just easily start by optimizing webOS 3.x so that the h/w requirements are lower and thus cheaper.
Why do people keep saying this? You CANNOT put 3.X on a phone and expect it to function properly even with properly coded drivers. 3.X is MADE for tablets NOT phones. The notifications, panel system, launcher, everything is designed for tablets. Phones NEED 2.X. I'm not trying to be mean by any means, but phones will use 2.X by default and it will go from there. 3.X doesn't make any sense.
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Old 01/07/2012, 05:02 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I don't want to **** on anyone's parade, but here's your real timeline for open source:

6 months- HP: "We're working on it."
1 year- HP: "Just tidying up, it'll be available in the coming months."
1.5 years- HP: "Okay guys, here's a stripped down version of WebOS for you. Go make magic, champ! Guys? Guys? Is anyone there?"
You have a valid point. Something like that could happen, and anyone who commits to support this project with their time, money, or encouragement needs to be aware of that and decide for himself/herself whether they are willing to take that risk. I'm not going to attempt to sugar coat things and be promising rainbows and unicorns - if HP reneges on their promise this will all be for naught. I'm prepared to risk that. Maybe others will be too.
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Old 01/07/2012, 05:14 PM   #33 (permalink)
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You have a valid point. Something like that could happen, and anyone who commits to support this project with their time, money, or encouragement needs to be aware of that and decide for himself/herself whether they are willing to take that risk. I'm not going to attempt to sugar coat things and be promising rainbows and unicorns - if HP reneges on their promise this will all be for naught. I'm prepared to risk that. Maybe others will be too.
Yes, no life without risk. But I agree if HP doesn't publish the majority of the source code within 6 months, I think webOS will definitely lead a marginal life. We also need another webOS phone and/or tablet to buy for next Xmas holidays to keep the platform alive.
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Old 01/07/2012, 05:19 PM   #34 (permalink)
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My personal plan to contribute to webOS is to buy apps. When I see a quality app, I am going to buy. We don't have too many apps so the cost really isn't that much and it shows the demand of the community for development to continue. We need to reward developers and not just download free apps. Spend a few dollars, we spend more on our fast food meal than many are willing to pay for a quality app.

If app sales go up, demand is up, developers take note than app development goes up. Developers will come where $ is. Hardware manufactures note the $ and app demand and build hardware.

That is my plan. If it fails than all I lose is a few bucks a week on quality apps.

I would love to support a community effort but I don't see it working. We need a true hardware manufacture as we will need mobile carriers, etc, to continue webOS.

Long live webOS!
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Old 01/07/2012, 05:30 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Might be a nice idea to get a few sections opened for some of these ideas to be discussed easier. We already have sections for patches/bugfixes as well as apps, how about one for hardware ports and/or one for new features? That would make discussions much easier than one AIO thread where ideas may get lost.

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Yes - Hardware, New Features (or is there already a thread going for new features?), Funding.

I was also thinking there should be a forum devoted to learning webOS app development for people new to programming or coming from other languages. Something that starts in "Hello World" territory and moves on from there step by step. Is there something like that already on here - I was looking and didn't find it, the stuff I did see assumed prior knowledge and experience with the platform. We need to do what we can to encourage anyone who's interested to get into doing app development and learning about how webOS works.
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Old 01/07/2012, 06:15 PM   #36 (permalink)
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was also thinking there should be a forum devoted to learning webOS app development for people new to programming or coming from other languages. Something that starts in "Hello World" territory and moves on from there step by step. Is there something like that already on here - I was looking and didn't find it, the stuff I did see assumed prior knowledge and experience with the platform. We need to do what we can to encourage anyone who's interested to get into doing app development and learning about how webOS works.
Palm has some pages devoted on this:
https://developer.palm.com/index.php...le&id=1758

But maybe a tutorial with more examples and references would be nice. Edit: An app with a tutorial would be great.

Edited: deleted addition.

Last edited by renater; 01/07/2012 at 08:11 PM. Reason: deleted addition and link
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Old 01/07/2012, 06:23 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Why do people keep saying this? You CANNOT put 3.X on a phone and expect it to function properly even with properly coded drivers. 3.X is MADE for tablets NOT phones. The notifications, panel system, launcher, everything is designed for tablets. Phones NEED 2.X. I'm not trying to be mean by any means, but phones will use 2.X by default and it will go from there. 3.X doesn't make any sense.
What the **** are you talking about? Did my post say "phone"? No. I was talking about 3.x in general, not which device it was gonna land on.
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Old 01/07/2012, 07:19 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Do we really have to worry about apps? The industry is leaning towards Web Apps. So, Make the WebOS (or the Webkit) powerfull enough to handle complex webapps (perhaps hardware accelated, like IE9).

May be, we can tweak webapps to work as Apps rather than in the browser?
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Old 01/07/2012, 10:42 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I'd suggest a KickStarter project once WebOS is out and we know what it can run on
to get committed pre-orders. Assuming there's a reference design that the released WebOS supports, manufacturing isn't that big of a deal.

I'd be willing to spend ~$250 for a 7" Kindle Fire/Playbook-esque "WebOS Go". iSuppli says the Fire costs $201 to make in volume so that price point should be achievable even in smaller lots.

On a more long-term aspect, hardware support comes down to 2 things: drivers and bootability. We have to assume that HP will continue to be as dysfunctional as normal and won't be able to provide any ongoing support.

For the booting side, I'd say target the unlocked Android boot loaders that in theory HTC & Motorola will be releasing. Do a little splicing to WebOS Doctor so that it can talk to those boot loaders.

Drivers are harder. Depending on what HP is able to release, we may be okay for a while as the Pre3 and TouchPad use fairly high-end hardware that will be mainstream (if not flagship quality) for the next 18months or so.

We might, maybe, be able to use Android drivers. It does have a linux-y heritage.

Both situations tell me that we (the WebOS community) should reach out to the XDA group that hacks away on Android. They have to deal with sourcing drivers and fighting with boot loaders and have done so with success. I wouldn't expect them to do the heavy lifting but their expertise could seriously jump-start any efforts to recycle Android.
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Old 01/08/2012, 02:56 AM   #40 (permalink)
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The thing is, there are several reasons why it didn't work, and none of them have anything to do with the amount of money HP spent.
i'm just saying i think you can raise a billion dollars and it wouldn't be enough. And no offense but the webos community loves things like vertical sliders and the touchpad. Me not so much so what they want isn't really what i want. Thus i wouldn't trust them spending my money. But from a practical standpoint i think to make a mainstream successful phone operating system it would take billions, plural per year just to even have a chance. You want mainstream companies to make apps you have to pay them and they aren't cheap, especially when with a small community they don't benefit much at all. what's the goal too? to just have it hacked onto hardware? That's nice but doesn't really interest me. If you want it on third party hardware good luck but point is you need some company to make hardware, design, it manufacture it, sell it and considering the poor sales who would take a shot buying the devices? Another thing is i'm not interested in tablets and i don't see webos getting much support for phones in the future. Even Meg said she doesn't anticipate them in the phone business. That's not absolute but seem to me the future of webos is mostly tablets. I'm not trying to poo poo on peoples dreams i'm just convinced that unless some big company comes in and decides they want to rescue it and throw tons of money at it the future is for hackers and hobbyists. I'm neither. Either way the first post poses plenty of questions but I'd need a fully flushed business plan that i believe in before i'd give my money away. That's just me. And i'm an unlikely candidate anyways but i wish you luck.
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