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Google's not-so profitable android venture?
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Old 12/15/2011, 08:37 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I donít think Android is dominating over the iPhone. How is that Google testified in front of the Senate Judiciary hearing stating that 2/3 of all mobile search is done on iOS devices but Android is dominating? Does that make sense to you? Are you telling me that people buy all these Android devices but they donít use them to search Google? It doesnít add up.

Although I know Flickr is not an accurate poll of the smartphone market, it doesnít add up that the top 4 camera phones happen to be iPhones.
Whoa buddy, I did not read your whole post. You are right that Flickr is not an accurate poll. Did you read this story:


Android is consumers' choice, but developers stick with Apple

Or this one:

GARTNER: Android Market Share Doubles, iOS Drops In Q3

Android is killing everyone on market share in phones. Apple's share isn't even close. Don't let Flickr fool you. Maybe iOS users like taking pictures.
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Old 12/15/2011, 08:50 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Whoa buddy, I did not read your whole post. You are right that Flickr is not an accurate poll. Did you read this story:


Android is consumers' choice, but developers stick with Apple

Or this one:

GARTNER: Android Market Share Doubles, iOS Drops In Q3

Android is killing everyone on market share in phones. Apple's share isn't even close. Don't let Flickr fool you. Maybe iOS users like taking pictures.
According to Google, when they testified in front of the Senate, two thirds of all mobile searches is done on iOS devices.

So, who are we to believe, tech blogs or Google, who has all the stats?
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Old 12/15/2011, 09:09 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Come on, let's get real on the whole #2 thing. The touchpad was the number two DEVICE. All you revisionist forget that there were 20 android tablets from several manufacturers right behind it.

Now let's talk OS. It was far, far, far from Android (which itself was equally far from iOS).

What's left? The OS. Game over unless several manufacturers step up.
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Old 12/15/2011, 09:16 PM   #44 (permalink)
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It wasn’t 20 Android tablets. It was just Samsung that was ahead of HP according to IDC. Where is your facts?
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Old 12/15/2011, 09:18 PM   #45 (permalink)
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According to Google, when they testified in front of the Senate, two thirds of all mobile searches is done on iOS devices.

So, who are we to believe, tech blogs or Google, who has all the stats?
Ok, iOS devices include iPods Touchs and iPads, not just iPhones. We are jumping from phones to tablets to mobile media devices. Android phones outsell the iPhone. Android is the number 1 mobile platform in phones only. The iPod dominates portable media and the iPad dominates the tablet market. The iPod and iPad can access the Internet also and use Google for their search engine.

I'm starting to think that you are the one that is deceiving everyone. There is no way you can not know all of this. I think you are bring this stuff up to get us to post positive iOS stuff, which is not even part of this thread. You can be like the other iOS users and look this stuff up yourself on Google. I'm getting back on topic.


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Old 12/15/2011, 09:20 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Come on, let's get real on the whole #2 thing. The touchpad was the number two DEVICE. All you revisionist forget that there were 20 android tablets from several manufacturers right behind it.

Now let's talk OS. It was far, far, far from Android (which itself was equally far from iOS).

What's left? The OS. Game over unless several manufacturers step up.
I don't know of anyone that disagrees with you.


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Old 12/15/2011, 09:26 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Im actually a Blackberry user because my employer provides us Blackberrys. I’m cheap. I don’t think I could fathom paying for a data plan. LOL.

I know that there is a lot of guessing and not a lot of facts.

Me deceiving?? Were you not the one that admitted that you were deceptive? And you did it again. You compare the iPhone against the whole Android PLATFORM. But, when it comes to the TouchPad, it’s just the TouchPad against an Android MANUFACTURER.

On topic…

It’s too much for webOS to be competitive. There is so much that needs to be available that is already out there for iOS or Android, or even WP7.

Last edited by nusome4; 12/15/2011 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 12/15/2011, 11:22 PM   #48 (permalink)
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i laugh when i keep reading people always bringing up... "it was #2 in amazon in july"... or august or whatever month it was...

lol, a movie could be number one or two in the box office the first weekends and then dissapear the next as most average/crappy movies do because they were overhyped and people rushed in to see it only to regret it later (and hp had to knock $100 off before the rush came in).

it's like harping on the 3 run score in the second inning... when at the end of the game they were crushed at the end... or something like that

you think leo would have killed it if it came out rocketing to number 1 looking like a rock star and capable at hanging with the competition and stayed that way for at least a month?

yes, it's crappy that leo pulled the plug on it so soon after launch... but it is what it is... the touchpad SHOULD have came out of the gate strong the first day... they SHOULD have maintained a strong launch... i dunno, blame it all on missteps from hp/ruby/all of them... but it came out weak, it got it's surge after knocking off $100 (which I still think it weaker than it should have been if the tp came out of the gate strong) and leo killed it before either seeing it sink like a rock (which they probably were seeing) or maybe it could have outsold ipad after some more smart russell brand ads.

but gosh are people still gonna be yapping about that great week on amazon and making excuses for why it isnt still out there and fantasizing that it would be outselling ipad2 if it were still out? imo, as much as i think webos was unique and deserved to be in the race, i really doubt it would have maintained the sales... unless they kept selling them at kindle prices.

look at the pre when it came out... look at how it turned out after so many years.

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Originally Posted by Mikey47 View Post
Come on, let's get real on the whole #2 thing. The touchpad was the number two DEVICE. All you revisionist forget that there were 20 android tablets from several manufacturers right behind it.

Now let's talk OS. It was far, far, far from Android (which itself was equally far from iOS).

What's left? The OS. Game over unless several manufacturers step up.

Last edited by donm527; 12/15/2011 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 12/16/2011, 01:13 AM   #49 (permalink)
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in case anyone was interested the Kindle fire has sold 1 million devices per week for the last three weeks. Amazon's Kindle Fire Sales Surge Despite Complaints; Over 1 Million Kindles Sold Per Week - Investors.com I think it has been out for 11 weeks.
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Old 12/16/2011, 01:39 AM   #50 (permalink)
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You talk a good game about margins on everything else, except when webOS is part of the story. Which Android hardware tablet maker besides Amazon is making money on hardware especially when most of it is sitting on shelves? No one is making Apple type money on their hardware they do sell and even then that profit is offset by the money being lost by the products that aren't in users hands plus the royalities paid to hawks like Microsoft.

With literaly hundreds of hardware makers, especially on the low end driving down profits, all Android devices not subsidized by cell phone providers are commodity items. That means low profit margins. Why not make the same profit margin on the hardware and some additional profits on the software?

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You've got this back to front, this is actually my point (I think I confused you by not making it clear that talking about selling millions of devices was about phones) - nobody is making money on tablets except apple (who has volumes and margins) - blackberry sold in the tens of thousands and RIM took a massive charge, many of the android tablets sell in the tens of thousands.

This is the crux - all of the big players are supporting their tablet adventures with existing mobile sales which took hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars to build - there are no WebOS phones and unlikely to be any WebOS phones, there is nothing to support the production of a *decent* WebOS tablet.
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Old 12/16/2011, 02:30 AM   #51 (permalink)
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2) Amazon does lose money on the device. They lose something like $10 per device and they offer a free limited subscription to Prime, which gives the user free shipping, movie rentals, and other stuff. The free shipping alone must be killing them this close to Christmas.
Nobody knows the exact price, but the most recent estimate has it at a loss of $1.78. I've seen reports of $10 loss and $10 gain.

On the Amazon Prime, they give you a free month. That free month is the same option that is available to all Amazon members. I tried it out for a month before buying it.
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Old 12/16/2011, 02:34 AM   #52 (permalink)
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in case anyone was interested the Kindle fire has sold 1 million devices per week for the last three weeks. Amazon's Kindle Fire Sales Surge Despite Complaints; Over 1 Million Kindles Sold Per Week - Investors.com I think it has been out for 11 weeks.
I had read that article earlier and did bring it up because it's 1 million "Kindles" sold per week, not "Fires". They numbers that Amazon was a combination of the Kindle, Kindle Touch, and Kindle Fire. They aren't giving a break down of how much of each are sold. Analysts do have the Kindle Fire selling 3-5 million devices by the end of the year.
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Old 12/16/2011, 03:05 AM   #53 (permalink)
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I had read that article earlier and did bring it up because it's 1 million "Kindles" sold per week, not "Fires". They numbers that Amazon was a combination of the Kindle, Kindle Touch, and Kindle Fire. They aren't giving a break down of how much of each are sold. Analysts do have the Kindle Fire selling 3-5 million devices by the end of the year.
Which even if we are conservative and say it's 3 million means that it outsold the touchpad by 4-1, if it is 5 million, it would be em...er...(counts on figures) 6-1.

The playbook might actually push the touchpad down into 4th after we get full figures for the quarter, the earnings call from RIM yesterday suggests that they were moving quite a few more of these now the price reductions are kicking in.

Anyway, we know the fire has outsold the touchpad because of simple logic, from their press release:

Quote:
“Kindle Fire is the most successful product we’ve ever launched – it’s the bestselling product across all of Amazon for 11 straight weeks, we’ve already sold millions of units, and we’re building millions more to meet the high demand. In fact, demand is accelerating – Kindle Fire sales increased week over week for each of the past three weeks.
There are either 750,000 or slightly fewer than 750,000 touchpads out there, so even if that 'millions' is two million, they outsold it.

Last edited by CGK; 12/16/2011 at 03:29 AM.
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Old 12/16/2011, 03:35 AM   #54 (permalink)
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You deceived on purpose. I donít know if I should laugh or be sad for you.

I provided numbers from IDC that dispute the TouchPad being number 2.

I donít think Android is dominating over the iPhone. How is that Google testified in front of the Senate Judiciary hearing stating that 2/3 of all mobile search is done on iOS devices but Android is dominating? Does that make sense to you? Are you telling me that people buy all these Android devices but they donít use them to search Google? It doesnít add up.

Although I know Flickr is not an accurate poll of the smartphone market, it doesnít add up that the top 4 camera phones happen to be iPhones.

Flickr: Camera Finder

Are you saying that people donít take pictures and post them on Flickr with an Android phone? I would say some Enron accounting is going on. Apple and Android are about equal when it comes to smart phone market share.
That poll really isn't accurate. Maybe Android-users don't post on Flickr (or less often). So that doesn't say anything.
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Old 12/16/2011, 03:47 AM   #55 (permalink)
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in case anyone was interested the Kindle fire has sold 1 million devices per week for the last three weeks. Amazon's Kindle Fire Sales Surge Despite Complaints; Over 1 Million Kindles Sold Per Week - Investors.com I think it has been out for 11 weeks.
1 million Kindles have been sold per week, not Fires. We still don't have the numbers on just the Fires yet.


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Old 12/16/2011, 03:52 AM   #56 (permalink)
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You've got this back to front, [I]this is actually my point (I think I confused you by not making it clear that talking about selling millions of devices was about phones) .....

Ok, I can understand that. We have all thrown the word "device" around in this thread with multiple meanings.



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Old 12/16/2011, 03:56 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Ok, I can understand that. We have all thrown the word "device" around in this thread with multiple meanings.



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Just so we are really clear about this - unless you are Apple or you have a model like Amazon, my position on tablets at the moment is that it would be quicker for companies entering this marketplace to simply set fire to the cash - that's not a WebOS specific point, it's just how the market seems to be. Devices like the Asus Transformer might change that but it's too early to get solid data.
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Old 12/16/2011, 04:01 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Nobody knows the exact price, but the most recent estimate has it at a loss of $1.78. I've seen reports of $10 loss and $10 gain.

On the Amazon Prime, they give you a free month. That free month is the same option that is available to all Amazon members. I tried it out for a month before buying it.
Were you locked in to buy it? Prime offers free shipping which I could have used. I paid $25 in shipping on Amazon for my Son's Christmas presents alone this month. I would ordered my daughter's presents from there also, put I didn't want to pay more shipping fees. Like I said, they lose money on the shipping alone by offering a free Prime trial. Cool if it is offered to everyone else.


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Old 12/16/2011, 04:55 AM   #59 (permalink)
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You can cancel Prime at any time during the trial.
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Old 12/16/2011, 06:54 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Just so we are really clear about this - unless you are Apple or you have a model like Amazon, my position on tablets at the moment is that it would be quicker for companies entering this marketplace to simply set fire to the cash - that's not a WebOS specific point, it's just how the market seems to be. Devices like the Asus Transformer might change that but it's too early to get solid data.
I think people say this about every market that has a clear leader only to watch in a few years as another company figures out a good plan and takes the lead. It seems that people in the tech world are more resistant towards change and the most forgetful. When a little company called Microsoft started charging people for software that only worked on the desktop, everyone in the tech world said that they would never beat UNIX. Look where they are today. When a Apple was on the rocks unable to break 4% market share in a PC world they once dominated, Steve Jobs came back to the company. They launched OS-X and the tech world said it would never take off against Windows. They created and launched the iPod and the tech world said it could not compete against the Sony Walkman. They launched the iPhone and the tech world said that there was no room for it against Blackberrys and Windows Mobile phones. Look where all of these products are today. When Netscape Navigator went open source and Firefox was eventually produce, the tech world said that it would never gain enough traction against Internet Explorer or Opera, the two proprietary browsers. Look what happened there. Android was never going to stand a chance, Facebook could not bring down MySpace, AOL was supposed to rule the Internet and email forever, etc.

The odds against everyone in the tablet market who competes against Apple are high, but they got to try. If they don't they will eventually cede the entire personal computer industry to Apple. HP is in a tough position because unlike IBM, they are not in a good position to give up on the PC business. The money they wasted in over paying for Autonomy has left them in a very weak position. They have to be smarter about the tablet market and webOS going forward or they lose everything.

HP definitely can't be like Google on this. Google doesn't seem to care about it's Market or developers making money and it is causing them to lose developers at an alarming rate. Google is not defending its hardware makers in court versus Microsoft and Apple's patent onslaughts, putting the hardware makers in a weak position. Heck, now a days the only thing Google seems to care about is defending its ad revenues.

HP can't be like Apple. HP doesn't have the developer support to make the apps that propel hardware sales, so they can't just make their own hardware and keep the app profits to themselves. Open sourcing the OS is a good idea and gets hardware makers to the table, but they have to offer incentives that Google and Microsoft don't offer when it comes to the app revenues (read my earlier post about HP using a cost sharing model with the App Catalog). HP is ahead of Google and very close behind Apple when it comes to app quality on tablets, so they need to expand on that positive.

I think if HP plays their cards right on this, they could seriously hurt Android sales in a few years. However, given HP's track record so far, there is no evidence to back up my claim. At least Meg is making decisions that everyone, webOS fans and distractors, seem to agree on.
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