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Google's not-so profitable android venture?
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Old 12/15/2011, 04:59 PM   #21 (permalink)
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HTC, which was a major Windows Mobile hardware maker at the time had to first take a chance on Android. No amount of backing by Google could have forced them to go against Microsoft and the established mind set. They chose to make an Android phone and to take the flack for it.

I don't know if you were here before the fire sale. I don't believe you were, but everything the other poster mentioned was pre-fire sale data. There was some bad reviews at the began by some tech sites (just like everything else non-Apple or Microsoft), but everything up until a few days before Leo made his move were positive. The TouchPad was already being crowned #2. The fire sale just accelerated the process.

You talk a good game about margins on everything else, except when webOS is part of the story. Which Android hardware tablet maker besides Amazon is making money on hardware especially when most of it is sitting on shelves? No one is making Apple type money on their hardware they do sell and even then that profit is offset by the money being lost by the products that aren't in users hands plus the royalities paid to hawks like Microsoft.

With literaly hundreds of hardware makers, especially on the low end driving down profits, all Android devices not subsidized by cell phone providers are commodity items. That means low profit margins. Why not make the same profit margin on the hardware and some additional profits on the software?

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About the TouchPad being number 2 in the market. Didnít Meg already come out and say that there are 750,000 devices out there?

Meg Whitman and Marc Andreessen on webOS: 'We will use webOS in new hardware... in tablets' | The Verge

Now, itís debatable if that is all TouchPads or TouchPads and other Pre phones. But, I find it hard to believe that before the fire sale, the Touch Pad was the number 2 device. Letís assume that HP sold more TouchPads after the fire sale than before the fire sale. Letís say they sold 400,000. That means that they sold 350,000 before the fire sale. I think that the Android tablets sold more than 350,000 at that point in time before the fire sale to be the number 2 after the iPad.
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Old 12/15/2011, 05:35 PM   #22 (permalink)
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All non Apple tablet sales was bad. I believe Touchpad was number two, but it's irrelevant because all non Apple tablet sales combined for whole 2011 was only small percent of iPads sales in one quarter of same year. It seems we all believed in "this is not sprint..." story, some of us criticized it, but we all believed its official HP's strategy. Obviously HP wasn't.
Maybe Google isn't making big fat buck from Android directly, but it doesn't seem to me they are going away from it. On the contrary! They are investing more and more in Android, trying to improve it significantly by every new build. Maybe for them this is marathon and noth a sprint? Ho knows.
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Old 12/15/2011, 05:45 PM   #23 (permalink)
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In the tablet space, being number two is deceptive.

When number two = half the sales of the market leader, then number two will have more meaning.

I know we are used to there being equal space on a line between numbers in math but for everything else number 2 is the thing that comes after number 1. Even though other tablets are far behind the iPad it is still correct and fair to group them based on their position behind the iPad.





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Old 12/15/2011, 05:57 PM   #24 (permalink)
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About the TouchPad being number 2 in the market. Didn’t Meg already come out and say that there are 750,000 devices out there?

Meg Whitman and Marc Andreessen on webOS: 'We will use webOS in new hardware... in tablets' | The Verge

Now, it’s debatable if that is all TouchPads or TouchPads and other Pre phones. But, I find it hard to believe that before the fire sale, the Touch Pad was the number 2 device. Let’s assume that HP sold more TouchPads after the fire sale than before the fire sale. Let’s say they sold 400,000. That means that they sold 350,000 before the fire sale. I think that the Android tablets sold more than 350,000 at that point in time before the fire sale to be the number 2 after the iPad.
You can't group all Android tablets together when talking about which tablet (singular) sales better. Android is a platform in that respect. We already know that Android is the number 2 selling tablet platform. Think of it this way, if I ask what was the best selling mobile phone a few months ago, you would have said the iPhone 4 (now its the Samsung Galaxy S 2). If I asked you what was/is the best selling mobile platform, then it would be Android.

The problem was that no one Android tablet sold in enough numbers to be considered #2.



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Old 12/15/2011, 06:02 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I know we are used to there being equal space on a line between numbers in math but for everything else number 2 is the thing that comes after number 1. Even though other tablets are far behind the iPad it is still correct and fair to group them based on their position behind the iPad.
---Sent from my HP TouchPad using Communities
I agree. However number two in this instance has no meaning in the market. It didn't mean anything to HP, it didn't mean anything to Bestbuy, it didn't mean anything to the tech blogs, it didn't mean anything to Wall Street or investors. Number two in the tablet space is not a fight for supremacy, or that you are close to being number one.

It means you fighting to not be number 3, 4 and 5, which in the case of tablets there is no real difference in profits, traction or market share.

Number two is still a battle at the lowest end of the bottom.

This applies to any tablet right now, not just Touchpad.

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The problem was that no one Android tablet sold in enough numbers to be considered #2.

At 750,000 units including firesale (Meg's comment is post firesale) being number two is meaninless.

Last edited by sinsin07; 12/15/2011 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 12/15/2011, 06:17 PM   #26 (permalink)
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You can't group all Android tablets together when talking about which tablet (singular) sales better. Android is a platform in that respect. We already know that Android is the number 2 selling tablet platform. Think of it this way, if I ask what was the best selling mobile phone a few months ago, you would have said the iPhone 4 (now its the Samsung Galaxy S 2). If I asked you what was/is the best selling mobile platform, then it would be Android.

The problem was that no one Android tablet sold in enough numbers to be considered #2.



Wow! What a double standard you have there! You said this earlierÖ

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Even though Android devices outnumber iOS devices by a wide margin
Now, when it deals with the TouchPad you only want to compare it to one tablet device manufacturer and not the whole Android tablet platform??

I find that hilarious. You and the tech blogs and media in general want to compare Apple to tens or hundreds of Android smart phone manufacturers which I think is unfair. It should be Apple against the next smart phone manufacturer and not the whole Android platform manufacturers. But, how many times do were hear on this very forum that Android is beating Apple. But, the same does not apply to the TouchPad that Android tablets outsold the Touchpad before the fire sale and you try to say that the TouchPad is number two.

So, I guess people on here should stop saying that Android is beating Apple since itís a toss up each quarter between Apple and Samsung who has sold the most smart phones for that particular quarter.
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Old 12/15/2011, 06:35 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Back on topic. What are ways webos can generate a revenue stream as open source?

1: It needs to be ported as soon as possible to a new handset. Not sure how that would gain traction though.

2: Need a side store opened up, sort of like Cydia where developers can make more of a profit then revenue sharing with HP.

Just my ideas.
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Old 12/15/2011, 06:38 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Here is quarter 2 tablet sales

IDC - Press Release - prUS23034011

And quarter 3 tablet sales

Tablet shipments miss targets but still balloon 264.5%, IDC says

HP was not number 2. The best they got was number 3 right after Samsung in the 3rd quarter.
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Old 12/15/2011, 06:46 PM   #29 (permalink)
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The problem was that no one Android tablet sold in enough numbers to be considered #2.
You can't say that's actually true. Amazon does not have to disclose their numbers of sales but I bet that they are or very soon will be the #2 tablet behind the Touchpad and they do/did that by not losing money on the device itself.

I know 4 people who have bought the Fire already and I only know 3 with the Touchpad, which includes me and the two others I talked into it.
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Old 12/15/2011, 06:49 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Back on topic. What are ways webos can generate a revenue stream as open source?

1: It needs to be ported as soon as possible to a new handset. Not sure how that would gain traction though.

2: Need a side store opened up, sort of like Cydia where developers can make more of a profit then revenue sharing with HP.

Just my ideas.
HP should have persuaded Amazon to use webOS instead of that crappy Kindle Fire. Since Amazon is not looking to make a profit off the Kindle, they could have sold a webOS device at or below cost and got a lot of people exposed to webOS.
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Old 12/15/2011, 06:54 PM   #31 (permalink)
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HP should have persuaded Amazon to use webOS instead of that crappy Kindle Fire. Since Amazon is not looking to make a profit off the Kindle, they could have sold a webOS device at or below cost and got a lot of people exposed to webOS.
Yeah, but they wanted their own marketplace, which took quite some time to build up. Think HP would just allow someone to use WebOS and not make a single dime back on app purchases? Also, crappy Fire? HP wishes that the Touchpad sold even a small amount of the numbers that the Fire is selling at without having to lose $200 per tablet during the firesale.
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Old 12/15/2011, 07:08 PM   #32 (permalink)
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HP should have persuaded Amazon to use webOS instead of that crappy Kindle Fire. Since Amazon is not looking to make a profit off the Kindle, they could have sold a webOS device at or below cost and got a lot of people exposed to webOS.
HP would have had to start that months ago. By the time HP trashed webos, Amazon was already deep into development and near ready for release of the Fire.
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Old 12/15/2011, 07:16 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Wow! What a double standard you have there! You said this earlierÖ



Now, when it deals with the TouchPad you only want to compare it to one tablet device manufacturer and not the whole Android tablet platform??

I find that hilarious. You and the tech blogs and media in general want to compare Apple to tens or hundreds of Android smart phone manufacturers which I think is unfair. It should be Apple against the next smart phone manufacturer and not the whole Android platform manufacturers. But, how many times do were hear on this very forum that Android is beating Apple. But, the same does not apply to the TouchPad that Android tablets outsold the Touchpad before the fire sale and you try to say that the TouchPad is number two.

So, I guess people on here should stop saying that Android is beating Apple since itís a toss up each quarter between Apple and Samsung who has sold the most smart phones for that particular quarter.
I did mean to be deceiving on that post. Things get murky when you start talking mobile platform numbers. Even I get lost. When strictly talking about tablets, the iOS devices outnumber Android devices and webOS devices by a large number. Android devices outnumber webOS devices, but the TouchPad was the number two device behind the iPad.

Android is not making good in roads into the tablet market. Hardware makers are fighting each other for scraps left over by people who don't want to own or can't afford to own an iPad.

Android dominates the smart phone market. I think that dominance is hurting Android in the tablet market because developers aren't making tablet apps for Android. They are focusing strictly on phone apps. HP did something right with webOS and Enyo to give the TouchPad one heck of a head start against Android with tablet apps. Until Android closes the gap on tablet apps I think it is going to stay far behind Apple in sales.

BTW, individual model sales matter to hardware makers more than it matters to me.
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Old 12/15/2011, 07:33 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Back on topic. What are ways webos can generate a revenue stream as open source?

1: It needs to be ported as soon as possible to a new handset. Not sure how that would gain traction though.

2: Need a side store opened up, sort of like Cydia where developers can make more of a profit then revenue sharing with HP.

Just my ideas.
I agree with #1 but not necessarily with #2. Isn't Cydia a iPhone only store that is not owned by a hardware maker?

I think a profit sharing Market would work better. HP runs the Market, produces developer tools for the apps, courts the developers, performs quality control, and handles advertisements. Each manufacturer is given a unique code for its line of devices that is recognized by the Market. When you purchase an app on manufacturer X's device, the purchase is recognized as coming from a manufacturer X device. A percentage of the app sale is then sent to the manufacturer's account by HP. The manufacturer doesn't have to worry about the headache of running their own store but still gets profits from apps sold on their device. I don't think anyone does that; Not Microsoft, Google, or Apple (obviously).
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Old 12/15/2011, 07:46 PM   #35 (permalink)
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HP would have had to start that months ago. By the time HP trashed webos, Amazon was already deep into development and near ready for release of the Fire.
More like close to a year ago when Amazon introduced their own app store. They planned on making a break from Google then. They won't even call the Fire's OS Android.

HTC learned a long time ago with Windows Mobile to develop their own UI for mobile operating systems, Sense UI. Samsung followed suit. Amazon did also. All of them could easily switch to webOS and most of their customers wouldn't even notice much of a difference because the UI won't change much. That is until they searched for their favorite app in the App Catalog. Android could go out with a without a second thought to users like Windows Mobile did if Google doesn't watch its back.
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Old 12/15/2011, 07:55 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Yeah, but they wanted their own marketplace, which took quite some time to build up. Think HP would just allow someone to use WebOS and not make a single dime back on app purchases? Also, crappy Fire? HP wishes that the Touchpad sold even a small amount of the numbers that the Fire is selling at without having to lose $200 per tablet during the firesale.
Amazon learned a valuable lesson (we all did) from HP when it came to pricing the Fire, which is greatly helping with sales. They still lose money on the initial sale but make it back when you purchase content. The number is a lot greater than most folks think but hard to figure because it depends on how much you use Amazon Prime. I could have put a large dent in Amazon's bottom line this month with shipping alone if I had a month's free subscription to Prime.
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Old 12/15/2011, 07:55 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I did mean to be deceiving on that post. Things get murky when you start talking mobile platform numbers. Even I get lost. When strictly talking about tablets, the iOS devices outnumber Android devices and webOS devices by a large number. Android devices outnumber webOS devices, but the TouchPad was the number two device behind the iPad.

Android is not making good in roads into the tablet market. Hardware makers are fighting each other for scraps left over by people who don't want to own or can't afford to own an iPad.

Android dominates the smart phone market. I think that dominance is hurting Android in the tablet market because developers aren't making tablet apps for Android. They are focusing strictly on phone apps. HP did something right with webOS and Enyo to give the TouchPad one heck of a head start against Android with tablet apps. Until Android closes the gap on tablet apps I think it is going to stay far behind Apple in sales.

BTW, individual model sales matter to hardware makers more than it matters to me.
You deceived on purpose. I donít know if I should laugh or be sad for you.

I provided numbers from IDC that dispute the TouchPad being number 2.

I donít think Android is dominating over the iPhone. How is that Google testified in front of the Senate Judiciary hearing stating that 2/3 of all mobile search is done on iOS devices but Android is dominating? Does that make sense to you? Are you telling me that people buy all these Android devices but they donít use them to search Google? It doesnít add up.

Although I know Flickr is not an accurate poll of the smartphone market, it doesnít add up that the top 4 camera phones happen to be iPhones.

Flickr: Camera Finder

Are you saying that people donít take pictures and post them on Flickr with an Android phone? I would say some Enron accounting is going on. Apple and Android are about equal when it comes to smart phone market share.
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Old 12/15/2011, 07:58 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Yeah, but they wanted their own marketplace, which took quite some time to build up. Think HP would just allow someone to use WebOS and not make a single dime back on app purchases? Also, crappy Fire? HP wishes that the Touchpad sold even a small amount of the numbers that the Fire is selling at without having to lose $200 per tablet during the firesale.
Iím curious to see if there will be some serious buyerís remorse with the Kindle Fire after Christmas is over.
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Old 12/15/2011, 08:03 PM   #39 (permalink)
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You can't say that's actually true. Amazon does not have to disclose their numbers of sales but I bet that they are or very soon will be the #2 tablet behind the Touchpad and they do/did that by not losing money on the device itself.

I know 4 people who have bought the Fire already and I only know 3 with the Touchpad, which includes me and the two others I talked into it.
You statement is wrong for two reasons:

1) The Fire will outsell the TouchPad and take the number 2 spot behind the iPad (not behind the TouchPad, I know what you meant but you didn't write it that way)

2) Amazon does lose money on the device. They lose something like $10 per device and they offer a free limited subscription to Prime, which gives the user free shipping, movie rentals, and other stuff. The free shipping alone must be killing them this close to Christmas.
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Old 12/15/2011, 08:14 PM   #40 (permalink)
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You deceived on purpose................
I provided numbers from IDC that dispute the TouchPad being number 2.
I did not deceive on purpose. I was talking about tablet sales not phone sales and I was correct in that respect. I think you guys keep getting the two confused (tablets and phones). I have no reason to short change a platform (I don't make any money off of this). I just like an honest debate.

Please provide the numbers from IDC because I am eager for more numbers on TouchPad sales (and I don't mean that sarcastically).
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