|
|
webOS Nation Forums > Other Forums > Off Topic > Fixing Healthcare
First ... 7 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 27 67 ... Last
Originally Posted by Technologic 2:
Ok, so who did? I can't find it anywhere. I can see who introduced it, but who wrote it? Most Representatives haven't even read it.
As with most higher execs, they have a staff who does the grunt work and advises accordingly. Some will. Most won't. Whining about a congressman who's unfamiliar with some benign oddity isn't worth bringing up.Ok, so who did? I can't find it anywhere. I can see who introduced it, but who wrote it? Most Representatives haven't even read it.
H.R. 3200: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 (GovTrack.us)
Originally Posted by 1thing2add:
As with most higher execs, they have a staff who does the grunt work and advises accordingly. Some will. Most won't. Whining about a congressman who's unfamiliar with some benign oddity isn't worth bringing up.
H.R. 3200: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 (GovTrack.us)
Translation: As with most higher execs, they have a staff who does the grunt work and advises accordingly. Some will. Most won't. Whining about a congressman who's unfamiliar with some benign oddity isn't worth bringing up.
H.R. 3200: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 (GovTrack.us)
I don't know who wrote it and I don't care. It doesnt really matter if anyone reads it. It's from the democrats so it's gotta be good.
Originally Posted by davidra:
Me too. And that's exactly what's going to happen, since the majority of citizens want available health care for all. And probably not from a paid consultant....we do need to be saved from doctors that see their role in that manner. There are too many that can't afford a consultant...but they still need care...and they seem to like doctors that are invested in their care. Maybe psychiatrists don't feel that's appropriate.
Health Care Reform - Rasmussen Reports™Me too. And that's exactly what's going to happen, since the majority of citizens want available health care for all. And probably not from a paid consultant....we do need to be saved from doctors that see their role in that manner. There are too many that can't afford a consultant...but they still need care...and they seem to like doctors that are invested in their care. Maybe psychiatrists don't feel that's appropriate.
Originally Posted by :
Fifty-six percent (56%) of voters nationwide now oppose the health care reform proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats. That’s the highest level of opposition yet measured and includes 44% who are Strongly Opposed.
Just 43% now favor the proposal, including 24% who Strongly Favor it.
But the overall picture remains one of stability. While the numbers have bounced a bit following nationally televised appearances by the president to promote the plan, opposition has generally stayed above 50% since early July. Support has been in the low to mid 40s.
I have never indicated that changes are not needed. I do not agree with what I have learned about current proposals.Fifty-six percent (56%) of voters nationwide now oppose the health care reform proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats. That’s the highest level of opposition yet measured and includes 44% who are Strongly Opposed.
Just 43% now favor the proposal, including 24% who Strongly Favor it.
But the overall picture remains one of stability. While the numbers have bounced a bit following nationally televised appearances by the president to promote the plan, opposition has generally stayed above 50% since early July. Support has been in the low to mid 40s.
Maybe if Congress was willing to let the people they are supposed to represent read what they are proposing to do, more people would agree with what they are proposing.
I, of course, doubt it; but (and I hope everyone can agree on this) it would be extremely nice to have the opportunity to find out!
Many of us (I hope most of us) are truly concerned about people who do not seek treatment or receive anything less than the "standard of care" -- sort of a minimum but acceptable set of treatments or interventions for an illness and generally determined by whatever medical specialty treats that illness -- due to the fact that they lack medical insurance (because Federal law dictates that hospitals are legally obligated to treat everyone who comes through the door...no one can be refused solely because they do not have insurance). [And, yes...I realize that people can choose to break or attempt to break that law, thereby refusing to treat someone.]
So, I am posting a few links to articles which discuss the infamous "46 million uninsured American" statistic so that anyone who is interested can look at where that number comes from, how it is defined, etc. and come to their own conclusions. I believe this is important for a few reasons, but they boil down to communication. You cannot have a meaningful debate if the people debating are not talking about the same things.
If I want to insure any person on US soil and you want to insure US citizens, then we actually have an additional issue to try to resolve--whether or not to insure people who are not US citizens. Having some idea about how many of the "46 million uninsured Americans" are not Americans would probably help with that discussion.
If you want focus on providing coverage for those who are uninsured for more than 3 months, it would be helpful to know how many of the "46 million uninsured Americans" are without insurance for less than that period of time.
So, these are for personal edification...I did not read them all..GOOGLE is my friend and I searched "uninsured americans statistics".
But, please keep in mind...statistics can be anybody's *****!
Have fun!!!
...from one of the 46 million uninsured Americans! [NB: I am included that number because I did not have insurance for one month in 2003..."uninsured" is uninsured at anytime during the year in question.]
CDC Features - Uninsured Americans: Newly Released Health Insurance Statistics
The uninsured and lying with statistics | Independence Institute: Patient Power
NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Coverage
Health Insurance US Health Insurance Statistics – How Many Really are Uninsured?
Health Care Lie: '47 Million Uninsured Americans'
So, I am posting a few links to articles which discuss the infamous "46 million uninsured American" statistic so that anyone who is interested can look at where that number comes from, how it is defined, etc. and come to their own conclusions. I believe this is important for a few reasons, but they boil down to communication. You cannot have a meaningful debate if the people debating are not talking about the same things.
If I want to insure any person on US soil and you want to insure US citizens, then we actually have an additional issue to try to resolve--whether or not to insure people who are not US citizens. Having some idea about how many of the "46 million uninsured Americans" are not Americans would probably help with that discussion.
If you want focus on providing coverage for those who are uninsured for more than 3 months, it would be helpful to know how many of the "46 million uninsured Americans" are without insurance for less than that period of time.
So, these are for personal edification...I did not read them all..GOOGLE is my friend and I searched "uninsured americans statistics".
But, please keep in mind...statistics can be anybody's *****!
Have fun!!!...from one of the 46 million uninsured Americans! [NB: I am included that number because I did not have insurance for one month in 2003..."uninsured" is uninsured at anytime during the year in question.]
CDC Features - Uninsured Americans: Newly Released Health Insurance Statistics
The uninsured and lying with statistics | Independence Institute: Patient Power
NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Coverage
Health Insurance US Health Insurance Statistics – How Many Really are Uninsured?
Health Care Lie: '47 Million Uninsured Americans'
This is not meant to inflame but inform...please take it (or leave it) in the spirit in which it is shared!
Cost Is Foremost Healthcare Issue for Americans
Cost Is Foremost Healthcare Issue for Americans
Originally Posted by Micael:
The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
LOOOOOOOVE IT!!!! The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
Originally Posted by palandri:
That's the way you think and there is nothing anyone can do to change your mind. Just like there is nothing you can do to change my mind.
Hey, now! Jokes is jokes, but no one should think that there exists nothing that could change their opinion!! That's the way you think and there is nothing anyone can do to change your mind. Just like there is nothing you can do to change my mind.
I don't care what side of any issue you are on--if new information becomes available or circumstances change...PLEASE be willing to at least check things out to make sure it doesn't affect your stance!!!
Just in case...
...now back to our regularly scheduled program...
Originally Posted by Micael:
I'll buy you a beer (I recommend Saranac's Black and Tan) if you ever come to Syracuse. Will that at least TEMPT you into changing your mind?
I don't drink, but I'll do the same if you're ever in the Bay Area!!I'll buy you a beer (I recommend Saranac's Black and Tan) if you ever come to Syracuse. Will that at least TEMPT you into changing your mind?
Originally Posted by 1thing2add:
Still nothing to show a relationship between the most profitable private insurance companies and the best patient outcomes, huh? If the free market worked where our healthcare provider model is concerned, and the customer/patient benefited, that "proof" should be at your fingertips.
I'm not going to pretend I've read all 300+ posts in the thread, but (1) what was the existence of that relationship supposed to mean and (2) if 80% of Americans are satisfied with the quality of medical care available to them and 60% are satisfied with the cost, doesn't that seem to indicate that our free market system is working for the majority of Americans?Still nothing to show a relationship between the most profitable private insurance companies and the best patient outcomes, huh? If the free market worked where our healthcare provider model is concerned, and the customer/patient benefited, that "proof" should be at your fingertips.
I think we can all agree that our system is not perfect and that there are issues that need to be addressed. But IMHO if 80% what they have and over half of American voters oppose the current proposals, shouldn't Congress and the President be working on some new ideas rather than trying to push through something their constituents do not want?
Originally Posted by davidra:
Naivete is a dreadful thing, isn't it?
The naive wouldn't know! Naivete is a dreadful thing, isn't it?
Sorry...I just couldn't resist!
Originally Posted by Technologic 2:
Straight from H.R. 3200
The Secretary shall publish in the Federal Register proposed quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that the Secretary determines are described in subparagraph (A) and would be appropriate for eligible professionals to use to submit data to the Secretary. The Secretary shall provide for a period of public comment on such set of measures before finalizing such proposed measures.’.
The wording is too much to copy it all on this thread, but it is available on the internet. I recommend you read it.
Also: Straight from H.R. 3200
The Secretary shall publish in the Federal Register proposed quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that the Secretary determines are described in subparagraph (A) and would be appropriate for eligible professionals to use to submit data to the Secretary. The Secretary shall provide for a period of public comment on such set of measures before finalizing such proposed measures.’.
The wording is too much to copy it all on this thread, but it is available on the internet. I recommend you read it.
Originally Posted by :
[The Stimulus Bill] further creates an entity called the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research, which will decide which treatments you should get, whether you should get them, and whether they should even be available. It is modeled after a British board which helps run the notoriously inefficient and bureaucratic National Health Service. (Editorial, Investor's Business Daily, March 5, 2009)
And: [The Stimulus Bill] further creates an entity called the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research, which will decide which treatments you should get, whether you should get them, and whether they should even be available. It is modeled after a British board which helps run the notoriously inefficient and bureaucratic National Health Service. (Editorial, Investor's Business Daily, March 5, 2009)
Originally Posted by :
The bill’s health rules will affect “every individual in the United States” (445, 454, 479). Your medical treatments will be tracked electronically by a federal system. Having electronic medical records at your fingertips, easily transferred to a hospital, is beneficial. It will help avoid duplicate tests and errors.
But the bill goes further. One new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology, will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective. The goal is to reduce costs and “guide” your doctor’s decisions (442, 446). These provisions in the stimulus bill are virtually identical to what Daschle prescribed in his 2008 book, “Critical: What We Can Do About the Health-Care Crisis.” According to Daschle, doctors have to give up autonomy and “learn to operate less like solo practitioners.”
Keeping doctors informed of the newest medical findings is important, but enforcing uniformity goes too far.
New Penalties
Hospitals and doctors that are not “meaningful users” of the new system will face penalties. “Meaningful user” isn’t defined in the bill. That will be left to the HHS secretary, who will be empowered to impose “more stringent measures of meaningful use over time” (511, 518, 540-541)
What penalties will deter your doctor from going beyond the electronically delivered protocols when your condition is atypical or you need an experimental treatment? The vagueness is intentional. In his book, Daschle proposed an appointed body with vast powers to make the “tough” decisions elected politicians won’t make.
The stimulus bill does that, and calls it the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research (190-192). The goal, Daschle’s book explained, is to slow the development and use of new medications and technologies because they are driving up costs. He praises Europeans for being more willing to accept “hopeless diagnoses” and “forgo experimental treatments,” and he chastises Americans for expecting too much from the health-care system.
Elderly Hardest Hit
Daschle says health-care reform “will not be pain free.” Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. That means the elderly will bear the brunt.
Medicare now pays for treatments deemed safe and effective. The stimulus bill would change that and apply a cost- effectiveness standard set by the Federal Council (464).
The Federal Council is modeled after a U.K. board discussed in Daschle’s book. This board approves or rejects treatments using a formula that divides the cost of the treatment by the number of years the patient is likely to benefit. Treatments for younger patients are more often approved than treatments for diseases that affect the elderly, such as osteoporosis.
In 2006, a U.K. health board decreed that elderly patients with macular degeneration had to wait until they went blind in one eye before they could get a costly new drug to save the other eye. It took almost three years of public protests before the board reversed its decision.
Hidden Provisions
If the Obama administration’s economic stimulus bill passes the Senate in its current form, seniors in the U.S. will face similar rationing. Defenders of the system say that individuals benefit in younger years and sacrifice later.
The stimulus bill will affect every part of health care, from medical and nursing education, to how patients are treated and how much hospitals get paid. The bill allocates more funding for this bureaucracy than for the Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force combined (90-92, 174-177, 181).
Hiding health legislation in a stimulus bill is intentional. Daschle supported the Clinton administration’s health-care overhaul in 1994, and attributed its failure to debate and delay. A year ago, Daschle wrote that the next president should act quickly before critics mount an opposition. “If that means attaching a health-care plan to the federal budget, so be it,” he said. “The issue is too important to be stalled by Senate protocol.”
More Scrutiny Needed
On Friday, President Obama called it “inexcusable and irresponsible” for senators to delay passing the stimulus bill. In truth, this bill needs more scrutiny.
The health-care industry is the largest employer in the U.S. It produces almost 17 percent of the nation’s gross domestic product. Yet the bill treats health care the way European governments do: as a cost problem instead of a growth industry. Imagine limiting growth and innovation in the electronics or auto industry during this downturn. This stimulus is dangerous to your health and the economy.
from Ruin Your Health With the Obama Stimulus Plan: Betsy McCaughey - Bloomberg.comThe bill’s health rules will affect “every individual in the United States” (445, 454, 479). Your medical treatments will be tracked electronically by a federal system. Having electronic medical records at your fingertips, easily transferred to a hospital, is beneficial. It will help avoid duplicate tests and errors.
But the bill goes further. One new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology, will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective. The goal is to reduce costs and “guide” your doctor’s decisions (442, 446). These provisions in the stimulus bill are virtually identical to what Daschle prescribed in his 2008 book, “Critical: What We Can Do About the Health-Care Crisis.” According to Daschle, doctors have to give up autonomy and “learn to operate less like solo practitioners.”
Keeping doctors informed of the newest medical findings is important, but enforcing uniformity goes too far.
New Penalties
Hospitals and doctors that are not “meaningful users” of the new system will face penalties. “Meaningful user” isn’t defined in the bill. That will be left to the HHS secretary, who will be empowered to impose “more stringent measures of meaningful use over time” (511, 518, 540-541)
What penalties will deter your doctor from going beyond the electronically delivered protocols when your condition is atypical or you need an experimental treatment? The vagueness is intentional. In his book, Daschle proposed an appointed body with vast powers to make the “tough” decisions elected politicians won’t make.
The stimulus bill does that, and calls it the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research (190-192). The goal, Daschle’s book explained, is to slow the development and use of new medications and technologies because they are driving up costs. He praises Europeans for being more willing to accept “hopeless diagnoses” and “forgo experimental treatments,” and he chastises Americans for expecting too much from the health-care system.
Elderly Hardest Hit
Daschle says health-care reform “will not be pain free.” Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. That means the elderly will bear the brunt.
Medicare now pays for treatments deemed safe and effective. The stimulus bill would change that and apply a cost- effectiveness standard set by the Federal Council (464).
The Federal Council is modeled after a U.K. board discussed in Daschle’s book. This board approves or rejects treatments using a formula that divides the cost of the treatment by the number of years the patient is likely to benefit. Treatments for younger patients are more often approved than treatments for diseases that affect the elderly, such as osteoporosis.
In 2006, a U.K. health board decreed that elderly patients with macular degeneration had to wait until they went blind in one eye before they could get a costly new drug to save the other eye. It took almost three years of public protests before the board reversed its decision.
Hidden Provisions
If the Obama administration’s economic stimulus bill passes the Senate in its current form, seniors in the U.S. will face similar rationing. Defenders of the system say that individuals benefit in younger years and sacrifice later.
The stimulus bill will affect every part of health care, from medical and nursing education, to how patients are treated and how much hospitals get paid. The bill allocates more funding for this bureaucracy than for the Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force combined (90-92, 174-177, 181).
Hiding health legislation in a stimulus bill is intentional. Daschle supported the Clinton administration’s health-care overhaul in 1994, and attributed its failure to debate and delay. A year ago, Daschle wrote that the next president should act quickly before critics mount an opposition. “If that means attaching a health-care plan to the federal budget, so be it,” he said. “The issue is too important to be stalled by Senate protocol.”
More Scrutiny Needed
On Friday, President Obama called it “inexcusable and irresponsible” for senators to delay passing the stimulus bill. In truth, this bill needs more scrutiny.
The health-care industry is the largest employer in the U.S. It produces almost 17 percent of the nation’s gross domestic product. Yet the bill treats health care the way European governments do: as a cost problem instead of a growth industry. Imagine limiting growth and innovation in the electronics or auto industry during this downturn. This stimulus is dangerous to your health and the economy.
Originally Posted by Woof:
Translation:
I don't know who wrote it and I don't care. It doesnt really matter if anyone reads it. It's from the democrats so it's gotta be good.
You tickle me! Translation:
I don't know who wrote it and I don't care. It doesnt really matter if anyone reads it. It's from the democrats so it's gotta be good.
Originally Posted by noaxis2:
Many of us (I hope most of us) are truly concerned about people who do not seek treatment or receive anything less than the "standard of care" -- sort of a minimum but acceptable set of treatments or interventions for an illness and generally determined by whatever medical specialty treats that illness -- due to the fact that they lack medical insurance (because Federal law dictates that hospitals are legally obligated to treat everyone who comes through the door...no one can be refused solely because they do not have insurance). [And, yes...I realize that people can choose to break or attempt to break that law, thereby refusing to treat someone.]
I think you're wrong on several accounts here, mainly that "most of us are truly concerned about people that receive less than standard care". That's not the stance of those that oppose any significant health care reform based on politics or a fear of socialism. There are people in this thread that can't see past their anger at the government to see that many government health care plans work just fine. Does your practice see SCHIP patients? Would they have been seen by anyone without the insurance? From what you said earlier, I suspect your practice doesn't see them, so given your concern, why not? Many of us (I hope most of us) are truly concerned about people who do not seek treatment or receive anything less than the "standard of care" -- sort of a minimum but acceptable set of treatments or interventions for an illness and generally determined by whatever medical specialty treats that illness -- due to the fact that they lack medical insurance (because Federal law dictates that hospitals are legally obligated to treat everyone who comes through the door...no one can be refused solely because they do not have insurance). [And, yes...I realize that people can choose to break or attempt to break that law, thereby refusing to treat someone.]
Your links are not exactly from the neutral evidence-based sources; far from it. The Bloomberg article is an example of misdirection. Do you believe in evidence-based medicine? Do you feel that doctors should be able to order any test, any intervention, regardless of efficacy, effectiveness, or cost? If you believe in that amount of independence, it will not improve outcomes but worsen them....and will bankrupt us. And all that bill is talking about is implementing control of ineffective treatments. Without that, regardless of whether we're talking about government or private, we cannot control costs. And the really funny thing is that all private and public insurers now already do this to some extent, by denying things without appropriate documentation. Just tell me what you think the difference is in the bill?
Mostly, since you don't agree with the plans that have been put forth, but you do want everyone to receive care, then let's hear it. What is your plan for solving the problem? You don't have to be real specific, but by all means, provide us with your outline of how to deal with the problem so it can be discussed. At least you have some working knowledge of how the system works or doesn't, so by all means give us your plan.
Originally Posted by noaxis2:
I'm not going to pretend I've read all 300+ posts in the thread, but (1) what was the existence of that relationship supposed to mean and (2) if 80% of Americans are satisfied with the quality of medical care available to them and 60% are satisfied with the cost, doesn't that seem to indicate that our free market system is working for the majority of Americans
The free market, private insurance industry exists to insure that care is available and provided to its policyholders.I'm not going to pretend I've read all 300+ posts in the thread, but (1) what was the existence of that relationship supposed to mean and (2) if 80% of Americans are satisfied with the quality of medical care available to them and 60% are satisfied with the cost, doesn't that seem to indicate that our free market system is working for the majority of Americans
Under the concept of the free market system, it is an accepted premise that those companies who produce and deliver the best product translates to the best benefit to the consumer.
Under the concept of the free market system, those companies who perform the best in delivering their superior product, receive the largest profits.
Where is there evidence that those private insurance companies who perform the best, as evidenced by their exceeding profitability, translates to patients with the most superior outcomes?
Or are you so disconnected, such as our insurance industry guys in this forum, that the principles of the free market system are only convenient when considered outside of healthcare delivery?
Originally Posted by 1thing2add:
The free market, private insurance industry exists to insure that care is available and provided to its policyholders.
Under the concept of the free market system, it is an accepted premise that those companies who produce and deliver the best product translates to the best benefit to the consumer.
Under the concept of the free market system, those companies who perform the best in delivering their superior product, receive the largest profits.
Where is there evidence that those private insurance companies who perform the best, as evidenced by their exceeding profitability, translates to patients with the most superior outcomes?
Or are you so disconnected, such as our insurance industry guys in this forum, that the principles of the free market system are only convenient when considered outside of healthcare delivery?
Ahhh. There's the rub. See, to them performance equals financial performance. Screw the medical outcomes. That's of secondary importance. Free market principles relate to the market, not the individual, right?The free market, private insurance industry exists to insure that care is available and provided to its policyholders.
Under the concept of the free market system, it is an accepted premise that those companies who produce and deliver the best product translates to the best benefit to the consumer.
Under the concept of the free market system, those companies who perform the best in delivering their superior product, receive the largest profits.
Where is there evidence that those private insurance companies who perform the best, as evidenced by their exceeding profitability, translates to patients with the most superior outcomes?
Or are you so disconnected, such as our insurance industry guys in this forum, that the principles of the free market system are only convenient when considered outside of healthcare delivery?
And conveniently, there is no data collected and publicized that describes medical outcomes in different insurance plans so that people can make an informed choice. The one exception is patient satisfaction, which you usually can track down....but that's hardly a great measure of quality of care. You can make many people happy by giving them whatever they want, regardless of the unrecognized consequences.
Originally Posted by davidra:
Ahhh. There's the rub. See, to them performance equals financial performance. Screw the medical outcomes. That's of secondary importance. Free market principles relate to the market, not the individual, right?
Right now, I'm sitting in a workshop in which the keynoter is a cultural anthropologist. One of her interesting points is that, despite this myth of liberals = socialist, and conservative = fascist, the real underlying cultural shift is that the end goal of the current "free market" arguments don't promote freedom or capitalism, but feudalism, in which a weak but wealthy monarchy control the majority by keeping them uneducated (and, in our case, making education / science / data a devalued commodity and actively promoting the value of ignorant populism).Ahhh. There's the rub. See, to them performance equals financial performance. Screw the medical outcomes. That's of secondary importance. Free market principles relate to the market, not the individual, right?
That's an interesting rhetorical question: are we headed toward socialism, or feudalism?
Originally Posted by Bujin:
Right now, I'm sitting in a workshop in which the keynoter is a cultural anthropologist. One of her interesting points is that, despite this myth of liberals = socialist, and conservative = fascist, the real underlying cultural shift is that the end goal of the current "free market" arguments don't promote freedom or capitalism, but feudalism, in which a weak but wealthy monarchy control the majority be keeping them uneducated (and, in our case, making education / science / data a devalued commodity and actively promoting the value of ignorant populism).
That's an interesting rhetorical question: are we headed toward socialism, or feudalism?
I fail to see the link between free market arguments and the devaluation of education. Would you like to fill in the gaps?Right now, I'm sitting in a workshop in which the keynoter is a cultural anthropologist. One of her interesting points is that, despite this myth of liberals = socialist, and conservative = fascist, the real underlying cultural shift is that the end goal of the current "free market" arguments don't promote freedom or capitalism, but feudalism, in which a weak but wealthy monarchy control the majority be keeping them uneducated (and, in our case, making education / science / data a devalued commodity and actively promoting the value of ignorant populism).
That's an interesting rhetorical question: are we headed toward socialism, or feudalism?
Originally Posted by Bujin:
That's an interesting rhetorical question: are we headed toward socialism, or feudalism?
Is it really that rhetorical? Of course, those against "feudalism" aren't a well-organized, well-funded, bussed-in raging mob ...That's an interesting rhetorical question: are we headed toward socialism, or feudalism?
Originally Posted by groovy:
I fail to see the link between free market arguments and the devaluation of education. Would you like to fill in the gaps?
Can't speak to the association with free markets, but lots of conservatives favor ignorant populism....such as intelligent design. But that's another Off Topic topic.I fail to see the link between free market arguments and the devaluation of education. Would you like to fill in the gaps?
Originally Posted by davidra:
Can't speak to the association with free markets, but lots of conservatives favor ignorant populism....such as intelligent design. But that's another Off Topic topic.
Yes it is.Can't speak to the association with free markets, but lots of conservatives favor ignorant populism....such as intelligent design. But that's another Off Topic topic.
webOS Nation Forums > Other Forums > Off Topic > Fixing Healthcare
