Destroying Healthcare in America

[clemgrad85]

Well this is baffling....while I await from Bujin the links to quotes and videos where O'Reilly calls Obama "******", I read in Parade Magazine where O'Reilly is speaking positively about Obama....this is so odd. Again, I'm not doubting Bujin when he says O'Reilly said this, as he is a teacher and teachers are all about the truth, but am just anxious to see the context of O'Reilly's statments and how they compare to his article in Parade. Help me out here Bujin as I need to figure which is the real O'Reilly.

[coreymcl]

In my opinion this debate is answered simply. First Congress has announced they will keep the healthcare coverage they already have so if it's not good enough for them, this says a lot.

Second, name me one government program that works well??? Some people use the VA as an example, I know 10 vets that show you that is exactly why the government needs to stay out of it.

Lastly, there is no way a government option would not put all private healthcare companies out of business to suggest otherwise is a flat out lie.

Now, this post is not to suggest that aren't improvements that need to be made. This is a very long list that I won't bother posting.

No matter who is in power D's or R's you have to ask yourself what do they get out of passing these reforms? And I'm speaking generally not just about this healthcare reform.

Well that's my 2 cents on the subject

[Micael]

Originally Posted by clemgrad85

Well this is baffling....while I await from Bujin the links to quotes and videos where O'Reilly calls Obama "******", I read in Parade Magazine where O'Reilly is speaking positively about Obama....this is so odd. Again, I'm not doubting Bujin when he says O'Reilly said this, as he is a teacher and teachers are all about the truth, but am just anxious to see the context of O'Reilly's statments and how they compare to his article in Parade. Help me out here Bujin as I need to figure which is the real O'Reilly.

I doubt that Bujin watches O'Reilly, so he most likely is just repeating what someone else said. I've watched him many many times, and in fact O'Reilly frequently defends Obama. Even on policies that O'Reilly disagrees with that come out of the White House, O'Reilly is quick to say "as is Obama's right" or "I don't agree with that, but he's our President".

I too would like to see the ****** comment. If it exists, I'm betting it was taken way out of context.

[Micael]

Originally Posted by coreymcl

No matter who is in power D's or R's you have to ask yourself what do they get out of passing these reforms? And I'm speaking generally not just about this healthcare reform.

Well that's my 2 cents on the subject

If history is an indicator, each one of them will get their "beaks wet" as the bill passes their desk.

[Micael]

Originally Posted by palandri

ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) — Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin says President Barack Obama's health plan is "downright evil." The accusation is made in Palin's first online comments since leaving office. Palin charges in a Facebook posting that the president would create a "death panel" that would deny care to the neediest Americans.

She's correct, though her terms are meant to grab attention, her analysis is correct. She called it the "death panel" because its a simple fact that their decisions, made on sound data I'm sure, will indirectly cause the death of those that are denied treatments due to rationing. If not death, then certainly the quality of life will be reduced significantly (i.e., no to a hip replacement to an 85 year old).

[clemgrad85]

Originally Posted by Micael

I doubt that Bujin watches O'Reilly, so he most likely is just repeating what someone else said. I've watched him many many times, and in fact O'Reilly frequently defends Obama. Even on policies that O'Reilly disagrees with that come out of the White House, O'Reilly is quick to say "as is Obama's right" or "I don't agree with that, but he's our President".

I too would like to see the ****** comment. If it exists, I'm betting it was taken way out of context.

I agree....I watch O'Reilly to and I'm often disgusted with how much he defends Obama. Of course, the skeptic in me just thinks O'Reilly is trying to not burn any bridges so he can possibly interview Obama in the future. I guess even O'Reilly has to kiss some a*@ sometimes to.

[RolandStone]

Just curious, how many of the "Anti-Obamacare" protesters actually voted for Obama? I'm guessing not many. I think these people are more interested in "breaking" Obama than they are in health care. Funny how you never see any black faces in those Anti-Obamacare protest groups.

[Micael]

Originally Posted by Bujin

There's a bit of a difference between protesting and referring to our President as ****** and burning elected officials in effigy. But many in the grips of racial fear can't see that difference.

First off, it was Nancy Pelosi that started with the comment about people with swastika's showing up at town hall meetings. All of the liberal talking heads are refering to the people raising issues at these meetings as "unruly mobs" and "whackos" and "crazies".

And I can't even count how many times that Bush was compared to Hilter over the first 8 years of this century....

So, get over the ****** whine. It's not working.

BTW, **** is short for the german word for "National Socialism" - Nationalsozialismus. When talking about a "free" national healthcare program, does this perhaps ring a bell?

[Micael]

Originally Posted by RolandStone

Just curious, how many of the "Anti-Obamacare" protesters actually voted for Obama? I'm guessing not many. I think these people are more interested in "breaking" Obama than they are in health care. Funny how you never see any black faces in those Anti-Obamacare protest groups.

Gee, you think that maybe they could be concerned about their healthcare? Just maybe?

wow... and he throws down the race card. how.... typical.

[semprini]

Originally Posted by RolandStone

Just curious, how many of the "Anti-Obamacare" protesters actually voted for Obama? I'm guessing not many. I think these people are more interested in "breaking" Obama than they are in health care. Funny how you never see any black faces in those Anti-Obamacare protest groups.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm against it because it's unconstitutional. The premise for socialized medicine is that health care is a "right" and, therefore, MUST be funded by taxpayers. A "right" doesn't depend another person to fund it's access. Simply put: it's not a "right." You do have to right to pursue health insurance, but you don't have the right to confiscate another person's property to get it.

The fact is that the vast majority of Americans are happy with their health care and don't want a bloated, inefficient, and inept government bureaucracy telling people how and when they can be treated.

It's not about "breaking" a president. It's about stopping a terrible idea that will cost us trillions of dollars and eliminate the freedom to access health care on our own terms.

And the reason why there are supposedly no "black" faces among the protesters could be an entirely new thread altogether. We should just get beyond the color of a man's skin and quit using it as a lame excuse of why we support or oppose his policies.

[clemgrad85]

Originally Posted by RolandStone

Just curious, how many of the "Anti-Obamacare" protesters actually voted for Obama? I'm guessing not many. I think these people are more interested in "breaking" Obama than they are in health care. Funny how you never see any black faces in those Anti-Obamacare protest groups.

Really?....using the race card? By the way, it was a black guy who got beat up recently at one of those meetings by some Union thugs (the police arrested them, look it up). He (the black guy) had the nerve to show up at a rally and hand out American flags and apperently the Union guys (you don't think liberals sent them there, do you????) didn't take to well to that. The nerve of some people, handing out American flags. Of course this wasn't carried by the main stream media because why would a black guy be passing out American flags....must be a set up (those sneaky Conservative groups ya know). The race card....I love it.

Speaking of the race card.....seems a little suspicious that Obama would nominate an over weight black woman to be the Surgeon General. She seems like a very caring person and as a physician has done many good things for her community, but is it really wise to have an over weight person as the Surgeon General? I wonder if Obama picked her because she was black? Hmmmmm. The race card?

[treobk214]

Originally Posted by Bujin

There's a bit of a difference between protesting and referring to our President as ****** and burning elected officials in effigy. But many in the grips of racial fear can't see that difference.

You liberals DID call Bush a **** with a **** - like ideology in Iraq. DONT YOU REMEMBER?

how can you sit there and attempt to say only otherwise?

What unsufferable hypocrisy you guys spew forth!!!

Liberals organized for anti war protest all throughout the past 8 years with Bush. Liberals organized for anti-pollution protests. You organized to protest Bush's social security reform. Did the Bush administration call you ****'s then? Absolutely not.

What's with your party's gestapo tendencies? Your party is approaching radical communist efforts in trying to restrict the public's right to gather and organize.

You liberals stand by this after 8 years of being allowed to freely protest bush with no such backlash?

Disgusting.

[Micael]

Originally Posted by palandri

ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) — Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin says President Barack Obama's health plan is "downright evil." The accusation is made in Palin's first online comments since leaving office. Palin charges in a Facebook posting that the president would create a "death panel" that would deny care to the neediest Americans.

More about the "death panel". It looks like Oregan's state health insurance has "shown us the way" of the future:

Death Drugs Cause Uproar in Oregon

Terminally Ill Denied Drugs for Life, But Can Opt for Suicide
By SUSAN DONALDSON JAMES
Aug. 6, 2008

The news from Barbara Wagner's doctor was bad, but the rejection letter from her insurance company was crushing.

(Paul Carter/Register-Guard)The 64-year-old Oregon woman, whose lung cancer had been in remission, learned the disease had returned and would likely kill her. Her last hope was a $4,000-a-month drug that her doctor prescribed for her, but the insurance company refused to pay.

What the Oregon Health Plan did agree to cover, however, were drugs for a physician-assisted death. Those drugs would cost about $50.

"It was horrible," Wagner told ABCNews.com. "I got a letter in the mail that basically said if you want to take the pills, we will help you get that from the doctor and we will stand there and watch you die. But we won't give you the medication to live."

Critics of Oregon's decade-old Death With Dignity Law -- the only one of its kind in the nation -- have been up in arms over the indignity of her unsigned rejection letter. Even those who support Oregon's liberal law were upset.

The incident has spilled over the state border into Washington, where advocacy groups are pushing for enactment of Initiative 1000 in November, legalizing a similar assisted-death law.

"News of payment denial is tough enough for a terminally ill person to bear," said Steve Hopcraft, a spokesman for Compassion and Choices, a group that supports coverage of physician-assisted death.

...

(the article continues)

[Micael]

Originally Posted by zelgo

According to a previously posted Commonwealth Fund Study, 80% of Americans are unhappy with their healthcare and the system in the US. 60% want a government-run single payer system. Yes, they want "bloated, inefficient, and inept government bureaucracy" to step in because the "bloated, inefficient, and inept" private bureaucracy couldn't handle it.

Riiiiight. You actually expect a serious response? We want more bloated inefficient and inept bureaucracy. What a joke! If you want stats that count, check out how many Americans are unhappy with Obama's healthcare plan. That's the number to watch

[clemgrad85]

Originally Posted by zelgo

Some government programs which well: Medicare, Social Security, NIH health research, CDC preventive healthcare research and epidemic surveillance, National Health Service Corps--sends healthcare provides to underserved areas of the country, HUD housing loans for first-time buyers, federal student loans, cash for clunkers, Community Health Centers, and, yes, the VA system.

If you think they don't work, ask any beneficiary if they'd rather not have it. Ask your 10 vet friends if they'd rather being out in the world fending for their own healthcare in the private world.

Government isn't some monolith--it's made up of people. If there's something that doesn't work well, we have to act to make government work better. You'll always find people who hate something. I can find you 47 million at least who hate the private, for profit, American health system.

The fact that we haven't tailspinned into another Great Depression brought on by the greed of private industry--is, yes, the government stepped in.

Well, depends on what the definition of "is" is. If your idea of a government program is one that is going bankrupt, well sure. I don't have all the dates handy for when the little programs like Medicare and Social Security are supposed to be bankrupt, but I guess in these days of bailing out auto companies that should have gone under it probably doesn't make a difference if government programs go bankrupt.

I don't know the status on all of the programs you listed, to be honest, but I do know that on Cash for Clunkers the government did a horrible job of estimating how many people would use the program. Makes you wonder how they can estimate the use of a program as large as a new public health care plan. I'll go out on a limb and say they will under estimate the use of it and therefore under estimate the funding for it. But never fear, they will just print more money or tax the wealthy more....no biggie.

Also, Cash for Clunkers is a joke. Why not Cash for Old Refrigerators?....or Cash for Old Tube TVs. Why is one industry singled out? Why is it that because I don't have a clunker, or don't need a new car at this moment (mine gets 30-32 on the hwy right now), that I still have to fund the car needs of others while I get nothing? I would really prefer the program known as "Cash for Me". But okay, it's a great progam

Oh....I'll say this again....I have no problem paying for the health benefits of Veterans....they clearly earned this for their sacrifice to the country. After all, since defending our country is actually a part of the Constitution, I see no conflict with this. By the way....I throw this in occasionally and hope some will actually go to the link and read the Constitution some time....really worth the time: Historic Documents - The Constitution of the United States of America

[Micael]

Originally Posted by zelgo

People who have no idea whatsoever about the problems with America's healthcare system as a whole and Obama's plan have an opinion--more often than not based upon mis-information spread by people making money off the system as we have it now and don't want it to change.

People may be unhappy, but with 77 million baby boomers coming down the pike and starting to demand their Medicare benefits, the whole current creeky system will come crashing down unless there is dramatic change.

All the more reason NOT to go to a single payer rationed system headed by a death council.

We have bloated ineffiency NOW and you're threatening bloated inefficiency if the government changes parts of the system??

National socialism isn't the answer. Lets stop trying for the government takeover and start putting our heads together on other approaches to improving healthcare. I'll work with you.

People are controlled and manipulated through fear--so when they go protest at the townhalls because the conservative talking heads rile them up--that's politics; it has nothing to do with whether healthcare really needs an overhaul.

So, they're just mindless robots stirred on by conservative talking heads. I think they have seen enough of the plan to realize that they're about to get screwed, and they feel powerless, and are left with the townhall meetings as a last chance to get the ear of their representatives.

[clemgrad85]

Originally Posted by zelgo

If good healthcare isn't a right, should education be one? Maybe we should stop free education too and let the people fend for it if they have the money...

Much of education is funded by the states...I've seen a figure of around .83 cents for each dollar...and is not part of the Constitution. The states have this right under the Constituion, I believe under the 10th Amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

So, not sure why people always use education as an example of what the Federal Government supports and uses it as an example of something we pay for but shouldn't have to. Now, maybe this is something to ask your specific state about. Again, I highly recommend reviewing the Constitution periodically as it has some interesting items on how the country was set up

[Micael]

Originally Posted by zelgo

What you forgot to mention conveniently is that a consumption tax wouldn't come anywhere near the money raised from the current system.

What is the hidden agenda? Without government money, we'd have to eliminate government programs like Medicare and Social Security.

They're already unsustainable. Maybe its time to try something else?

[clemgrad85]

Originally Posted by zelgo

What you forgot to mention conveniently is that a consumption tax wouldn't come anywhere near the money raised from the current system.

What is the hidden agenda? Without government money, we'd have to eliminate government programs like Medicare and Social Security.

I'm sorry....just not true....read the book.....kind of funny, they actually explain how people will use this scare tactic (guess you backed that up, excellent!) against the Fair Tax. The hidden agenda (although it isn't hidden in the book, but I'll call it that for your benefit) is to simplify the tax process and save costs in areas such as your time, setting up trusts to avoid taxes, etc. Most people will end up paying the same amount of tax....it's not a plan to really reduce taxes. In fact, it actually gets rid of all the "loopholes" the liberals always claim the rich use. Guess what? No more loopholes! Think of all the money that isn't taxed now that will be taxed when spent. Now, I will say that if a person earns 1 million a year, and doesn't spend a dime, he or she will come out way ahead....but would like to see that in practice.

[clemgrad85]

Originally Posted by zelgo

Yet, how true. The reason every protester I've seen on Tv or on Youtube is white--because the townhall protests are organized by Republicans.

How many non-white Republicans do you know?

No doubt the percent is low...maybe 8-10%? I do know the Chairman of the Republican National Committee is a black guy. I also know some blacks locally that vote Republican.....but the figure is low. But those good ole boys from the union group sure whooped up on one black guy at one of those town hall meetings that apparently was a Republican....I guess they needed to get him back in line, huh?