Destroying Healthcare in America

[daThomas]

Originally Posted by KAM1138

Something YOU might want to read up on, is the open declaration that this is just the first step. Single Payer is the goal--and they don't hide this. They haven't hidden the fact that this is an incremental path they are on, and while they might fail to achieve it, people would be unwise to believe the "Trust me" pleas of those who have openly revealed their goals that go far beyond "moderate."

KAM

Perhaps, but certainly if that path is such a bad thing for most people certainly they will turn away if the first step is not satisfactory, no?

[daThomas]

Originally Posted by clemgrad85

Liberals are so gullible because they live in a world that doesn't really exist.

I think if you look at Healthcare in all the other developed nations of the REAL WORLD, you'll find more in common with the health care reform than the existing status quo.

Originally Posted by daThomas

Perhaps, but certainly if that path is such a bad thing for most people certainly they will turn away if the first step is not satisfactory, no?

What makes you think they will be given that choice? As it was pointed out yesterday, these things are designed to be near-impossible to remove, once they've been put in place, which is exactly why this "ram-it-through" and "Trust us" idea is so dangerous.

I think you know very well, that by the time these things take effect it is too late.

KAM

Originally Posted by daThomas

I think if you look at Healthcare in all the other developed nations of the REAL WORLD, you'll find more in common with the health care reform than the existing status quo.

The rest of the world isn't the United States, nor do they have our obligations or system of government. Also--a number of theses other "developed nations" are on the verge of collapse as well, with an even less sustainable outlook.

Can anyone really sit here with a straight face and say that the economic issues (which are headed straight to insolvency) are being addressed or would even POSSIBLY be addressed in any of these bills?

If this passes you can cheer all you want, but the overall problems are not being solved, and when that bubble bursts...well, let's just pray that somehow it doesn't, because the results will not be good.

KAM

[ryleyinstl]

Originally Posted by KAM1138

The rest of the world isn't the United States, nor do they have our obligations or system of government. Also--a number of theses other "developed nations" are on the verge of collapse as well, with an even less sustainable outlook.

Can anyone really sit here with a straight face and say that the economic issues (which are headed straight to insolvency) are being addressed or would even POSSIBLY be addressed in any of these bills?

If this passes you can cheer all you want, but the overall problems are not being solved, and when that bubble bursts...well, let's just pray that somehow it doesn't, because the results will not be good.

KAM

I think KAM has a very good point here. It's time to stop with Band-aids. A country with a trillion plus yearly deficit is out of time, yesterday.

[groovy]

Originally Posted by daThomas

I think if you look at Healthcare in all the other developed nations of the REAL WORLD, you'll find more in common with the health care reform than the existing status quo.

The rest of the world includes a whole lot of people who don't have to worry about their own defenses. In fact, it includes more than one country that gets aid from the US. So, here's a thought: let's stop overloading the international gravy train and keep that money here at home! The we can compare apples to apples.

[clemgrad85]

Originally Posted by groovy

The rest of the world includes a whole lot of people who don't have to worry about their own defenses. In fact, it includes more than one country that gets aid from the US. So, here's a thought: let's stop overloading the international gravy train and keep that money here at home! The we can compare apples to apples.

Holy Cow! Now you're talking.....I'm sooooooo tired of sending money to countries that hate us. Oh sure, Obama has apologized to the world for us, but not even sure that made a dent. They smile at us to keep the money flowing, but behind our backs they cuss us.

[xForsaken]

Originally Posted by groovy

The rest of the world includes a whole lot of people who don't have to worry about their own defenses. In fact, it includes more than one country that gets aid from the US. So, here's a thought: let's stop overloading the international gravy train and keep that money here at home! The we can compare apples to apples.

your absolutely correct, you should stop the gravy train. I freely admit, that Canada depends on your military for several things. Things like the now defunct pine tree line, and a few other lines that crossed this country. For those too young to know, they were a bunch of radar stations set up across Canada at varying levels of latitude, to give a warning for all those terrible russian nukes that were going to come flying in. Yup, they were built on Canadian soil to protect the good ol US of A. Or at least as it turns out give you folks about 3-4 minutes warning you were about to be vaporized. Up here in canada, we have been dealing with those sites, and all the fine pollution left behind. Toxic crap, making living on or near those now decommissioned sites impossible. Not to mention the fact most of them were built right next to our modest cities, which made them ohhh first strike sites. Yup the gravy train.
Dont get me wrong, there is a lot of good that has come from the states, a ton, I really do appreciate my neighbors to the south. I spent 4 years down there competing back in the late 70s, hell even broke my leg once, cost me a mere 6000 bucks to get it set. Only to find out it was done wrong. but hey shiet happens.

Yes, there is another bunch of countries out there, some who absolutely hate you. So badly do they hate you they attack you at every chance. 911 comes to mind, plus a whole lot more.
I will readily admit, some of the issues they have are, for a lack of a better way of putting it, is jealousy. Other issues with some countries derive from your corps raping and pillaging and then leaving. You have to remember, all they see in some of these 3rd world countries is your flag, not the name of the corp.

Just remember, if you cut off the gravy train, as you call it, there is an equal and opposite reaction to that. It will vary from a sigh of relief, to a perception of weakness. There will be massive layoffs of american workers, businesses will fail, and yes jimmy you will have a lot of fine upstanding americans ****ed off at you.

Do i believe you should be giving money or supplies to countries who will turn around and use it against you, Hell no. However to believe that its your way or the highway to about ohhhhhhhh 95% of the rest of the world is just plain stupid.

just my two canadian cents worth.

[clemgrad85]

Originally Posted by xForsaken

your absolutely correct, you should stop the gravy train. I freely admit, that Canada depends on your military for several things. Things like the now defunct pine tree line, and a few other lines that crossed this country. For those too young to know, they were a bunch of radar stations set up across Canada at varying levels of latitude, to give a warning for all those terrible russian nukes that were going to come flying in. Yup, they were built on Canadian soil to protect the good ol US of A. Or at least as it turns out give you folks about 3-4 minutes warning you were about to be vaporized. Up here in canada, we have been dealing with those sites, and all the fine pollution left behind. Toxic crap, making living on or near those now decommissioned sites impossible. Not to mention the fact most of them were built right next to our modest cities, which made them ohhh first strike sites. Yup the gravy train.
Dont get me wrong, there is a lot of good that has come from the states, a ton, I really do appreciate my neighbors to the south. I spent 4 years down there competing back in the late 70s, hell even broke my leg once, cost me a mere 6000 bucks to get it set. Only to find out it was done wrong. but hey shiet happens.

Yes, there is another bunch of countries out there, some who absolutely hate you. So badly do they hate you they attack you at every chance. 911 comes to mind, plus a whole lot more.
I will readily admit, some of the issues they have are, for a lack of a better way of putting it, is jealousy. Other issues with some countries derive from your corps raping and pillaging and then leaving. You have to remember, all they see in some of these 3rd world countries is your flag, not the name of the corp.

Just remember, if you cut off the gravy train, as you call it, there is an equal and opposite reaction to that. It will vary from a sigh of relief, to a perception of weakness. There will be massive layoffs of american workers, businesses will fail, and yes jimmy you will have a lot of fine upstanding americans ****ed off at you.

Do i believe you should be giving money or supplies to countries who will turn around and use it against you, Hell no. However to believe that its your way or the highway to about ohhhhhhhh 95% of the rest of the world is just plain stupid.

just my two canadian cents worth.

Well.....you see......I believe that if we stop throwing money out to other countries.....perhaps our citizens could actually keep more of that money....thus spending it (which is good, it will mean more jobs) or perhaps even creating jobs with it (those jobs you seem so worried about). I mean, if us sending money to other countries is so good, then let's send more! Yes! If the amount we send now is working so well....then by god, let's double it! Why not have our top tax bracket at 60 or 70%?

Obviously there is a reaction to any action. I mean, no one seems worried about the jobs that will potentially be lost as insurance companies are shut down so the government can provide health benefits for everyone. You say the government will need to hire these people? Oh great, more dependence on the government. Does anyone realize that the more government employees we have, the more money the government must pay out, and therefore we need more people to tax...or....of course....just tax the remaining private citizens at higher amounts! Good grief.

[groovy]

Originally Posted by xForsaken

your absolutely correct, you should stop the gravy train. I freely admit, that Canada depends on your military for several things. Things like the now defunct pine tree line, and a few other lines that crossed this country. For those too young to know, they were a bunch of radar stations set up across Canada at varying levels of latitude, to give a warning for all those terrible russian nukes that were going to come flying in. Yup, they were built on Canadian soil to protect the good ol US of A. Or at least as it turns out give you folks about 3-4 minutes warning you were about to be vaporized. Up here in canada, we have been dealing with those sites, and all the fine pollution left behind. Toxic crap, making living on or near those now decommissioned sites impossible. Not to mention the fact most of them were built right next to our modest cities, which made them ohhh first strike sites. Yup the gravy train.
Dont get me wrong, there is a lot of good that has come from the states, a ton, I really do appreciate my neighbors to the south. I spent 4 years down there competing back in the late 70s, hell even broke my leg once, cost me a mere 6000 bucks to get it set. Only to find out it was done wrong. but hey shiet happens.

Yes, there is another bunch of countries out there, some who absolutely hate you. So badly do they hate you they attack you at every chance. 911 comes to mind, plus a whole lot more.
I will readily admit, some of the issues they have are, for a lack of a better way of putting it, is jealousy. Other issues with some countries derive from your corps raping and pillaging and then leaving. You have to remember, all they see in some of these 3rd world countries is your flag, not the name of the corp.

Just remember, if you cut off the gravy train, as you call it, there is an equal and opposite reaction to that. It will vary from a sigh of relief, to a perception of weakness. There will be massive layoffs of american workers, businesses will fail, and yes jimmy you will have a lot of fine upstanding americans ****ed off at you.

Do i believe you should be giving money or supplies to countries who will turn around and use it against you, Hell no. However to believe that its your way or the highway to about ohhhhhhhh 95% of the rest of the world is just plain stupid.

just my two canadian cents worth.

Our money, out way. Isn't that how is works all over? Just ask the third world countries getting IMF funds. But, as is clearly evident from your post, you can't buy friends... or gratitude. Oh, and don't you imagine there were more than a few Canadian leaders who had to give permission to plant those pine trees .

[groovy]

Will Obama's healthcare plan reduce costs? / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

In all, the plan would cost nearly $1 trillion over the next 10 years. Obama plans to pay for that mainly by squeezing waste or excessive costs out of Medicare and imposing a tax on high-end health insurance plans. "The bottom line is, our proposal is paid for," he said Wednesday.

But here's why not everyone agrees that cost control will happen:

– The tax on high-end plans has been reduced, in part because it was opposed by labor unions. The administration still says its plan overall will not add to federal deficits, but the tax on "Cadillac plans" was supposed to help impose some cost discipline on the entire health system. Now it wouldn't do that to the same degree.

– Private-sector premiums will remain high. What's important for Americans is not just how much government spends on healthcare, but how much people have to spend total – including insurance premiums and out-of-pocket expenses. An Obama-style plan would have little impact on premiums for most Americans, a CBO analysis found in December. That means no big spike (good news), but also no big drop.

– Some healthcare spending is left out of the bill. A key example, Mr. Ryan says, is a $371 billion cost for the what Congress calls the "doc fix," or preventing annual cuts in reimbursements to doctors.

Perhaps most important is a general point: Almost all the key numbers come with a high degree of uncertainty. Some surprises could be negative, such as if more employers than anticipated opt to drop health benefits. Some could be positive, such as if experiments with new models of care reap gains faster than expected.

Given these uncertainties, the key divide between Obama and Republicans is philosophical: Democrats generally are confident that an enlarged role for government can help rein in costs, even as it expands healthcare coverage to more Americans. Republicans favor new efforts to harness marketplace forces, while targeting specific programs to reduce the number of uninsured.

[xForsaken]

Originally Posted by groovy

Our money, out way. Isn't that how is works all over? Just ask the third world countries getting IMF funds. But, as is clearly evident from your post, you can't buy friends... or gratitude. Oh, and don't you imagine there were more than a few Canadian leaders who had to give permission to plant those pine trees .

Nice way to twist, but you have it wrong, I honestly do appreciate the US. I really have very little animosity with America. Yes you (read nation) have done some things that have ****ed me off. You have also done one hell of a lot of good. IMF, hmmmm last i checked Canada gave to that too, as do one hell of a lot of other nations. No you can not buy friends, that is the mistake you make. You are far more likely to have long fast friendships with other nations by actually listening to them. Not deciding what is best and then imposing your idea, ideals on them. Some of your own tenets of being american is that you celebrate differences from one person to the next. Individuals, are paramount in your system. Good, if thats what works for you great. It doesn't work for everyone. Again, lol everyone is different. In this little thread on health care, that is the one thing you have all missed. Be it free market, be it total govt controlled health care, each person has their own belief.

As to some canadian leaders giving permission to build those little pine trees, your absolutely correct, they gave permission to build them, I dont recall them giving permission to leave toxins in the environment. But things back then were far different then they are now. I am old enough to remember, hell participate in "drop and cover", listening to air raid siren drills, russian fishing trawlers, that were actually radio listening posts, and a host of other things. Based on what I have read here, many of you fine folks would have shiet your pants at the amount of control the govts of the day had over your every move, all in the name of saving the good ol US of A and its way of life. lol
Yes ultimately the U.S.S.R. collapsed, Regan and a few other of your leaders spent them into the ground.
you are worried about loosing jobs in the insurance industry, lol, i would suggest, that you should be far more worried about how many jobs will be lost, how high your unemployment will go, once Iraq and Afghanistan are finished. There are a lot of jobs tied up in that industry then a few insurance jobs. ohhh and while your about it, just how much are you spending to prosecute those two wars. How much of that huge deficit is actually your war debt? lolol I would bet one hell of a lot.

So yes, threaten to pull back, be careful, there is a huge country just a bit west of you, with what,, 3-4 times the population, that would be more then happy to replace you as a world leader. Yes Jimmy, not only do they own most of your debt, they are pushing hard to replace your dollar as the world standard. So once you finish playing turtle, and push your head back out, it would be a vastly different world. I am not saying it would be better or worse, just extremely different.

Long gone are the days where you could go behind the barricades, button down, hide your heads in the sand and let the rest of the world do what it would. with the multinationals based in the U.S., do you really think those corps would let you do it? whoooa if you believe that you, as pretty much the ultimate consumer nation in the world, followed closely by China, that the corps would let your govt do that?? lolol good luck with that one..

I will say once again, i have no problem with most of what the U.S. says and does, hell some very good friends of mine are american, lol i dont hold that against them .... lol much

[clemgrad85]

Originally Posted by xForsaken

Nice way to twist, but you have it wrong, I honestly do appreciate the US. I really have very little animosity with America. Yes you (read nation) have done some things that have ****ed me off. You have also done one hell of a lot of good. IMF, hmmmm last i checked Canada gave to that too, as do one hell of a lot of other nations. No you can not buy friends, that is the mistake you make. You are far more likely to have long fast friendships with other nations by actually listening to them. Not deciding what is best and then imposing your idea, ideals on them. Some of your own tenets of being american is that you celebrate differences from one person to the next. Individuals, are paramount in your system. Good, if thats what works for you great. It doesn't work for everyone. Again, lol everyone is different. In this little thread on health care, that is the one thing you have all missed. Be it free market, be it total govt controlled health care, each person has their own belief.

As to some canadian leaders giving permission to build those little pine trees, your absolutely correct, they gave permission to build them, I dont recall them giving permission to leave toxins in the environment. But things back then were far different then they are now. I am old enough to remember, hell participate in "drop and cover", listening to air raid siren drills, russian fishing trawlers, that were actually radio listening posts, and a host of other things. Based on what I have read here, many of you fine folks would have shiet your pants at the amount of control the govts of the day had over your every move, all in the name of saving the good ol US of A and its way of life. lol
Yes ultimately the U.S.S.R. collapsed, Regan and a few other of your leaders spent them into the ground.
you are worried about loosing jobs in the insurance industry, lol, i would suggest, that you should be far more worried about how many jobs will be lost, how high your unemployment will go, once Iraq and Afghanistan are finished. There are a lot of jobs tied up in that industry then a few insurance jobs. ohhh and while your about it, just how much are you spending to prosecute those two wars. How much of that huge deficit is actually your war debt? lolol I would bet one hell of a lot.

So yes, threaten to pull back, be careful, there is a huge country just a bit west of you, with what,, 3-4 times the population, that would be more then happy to replace you as a world leader. Yes Jimmy, not only do they own most of your debt, they are pushing hard to replace your dollar as the world standard. So once you finish playing turtle, and push your head back out, it would be a vastly different world. I am not saying it would be better or worse, just extremely different.

Long gone are the days where you could go behind the barricades, button down, hide your heads in the sand and let the rest of the world do what it would. with the multinationals based in the U.S., do you really think those corps would let you do it? whoooa if you believe that you, as pretty much the ultimate consumer nation in the world, followed closely by China, that the corps would let your govt do that?? lolol good luck with that one..

I will say once again, i have no problem with most of what the U.S. says and does, hell some very good friends of mine are american, lol i dont hold that against them .... lol much

Your comments are exactly why I prefer not to help out folks like you. Yes, you laugh and giggle at the money we spend to save the world. I wonder....if the US of A didn't get the world involved to run Hussein (not Obama, the dead one) out of Kuwait....if we had just sat back and waited for....oh....let's say.....Canada....to do something about it, I wonder where we'd be right now. But of course, the good ole US of A came to the rescue of the World once again. Sure....other countries, including Canada....were involved in that little Kuwait squirmish....but I doubt anything would have been done without us making the first move. So just laugh and laugh....but one day....we'll probably save your and then maybe you'll stop laughing. You can keep Canada "bud".

[theog]

Originally Posted by groovy

Will Obama's healthcare plan reduce costs? / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

The unfortunate truth about the Republicans is that they did nothing on Health care... crap.. zip... nada damn thing while bush was in office.

Now, all of a sudden, they are the party of the "good ideas" on health care. Right...

Bunch of losers.

Get out of the way so Obama can do his job.

Originally Posted by clemgrad85

Well.....you see......I believe that if we stop throwing money out to other countries.....perhaps our citizens could actually keep more of that money....thus spending it (which is good, it will mean more jobs) or perhaps even creating jobs with it (those jobs you seem so worried about). I mean, if us sending money to other countries is so good, then let's send more! Yes! If the amount we send now is working so well....then by god, let's double it! Why not have our top tax bracket at 60 or 70%?

Obviously there is a reaction to any action. I mean, no one seems worried about the jobs that will potentially be lost as insurance companies are shut down so the government can provide health benefits for everyone. You say the government will need to hire these people? Oh great, more dependence on the government. Does anyone realize that the more government employees we have, the more money the government must pay out, and therefore we need more people to tax...or....of course....just tax the remaining private citizens at higher amounts! Good grief.

Well, we do spend a lot of money on defense and that has and does certainly benefit other nations, and certainly there is waste in the defense budget (like the entire budget), but I think you will find that our entitlement programs are our biggest financial liability.

KAM

[groovy]

Originally Posted by theog

The unfortunate truth about the Republicans is that they did nothing on Health care... crap.. zip... nada damn thing while bush was in office.

Now, all of a sudden, they are the party of the "good ideas" on health care. Right...

Bunch of losers.

Get out of the way so Obama can do his job.

You must have forgotten HIPAA. Also glaringly absent from your evaluation is the Medicare prescription drug act which also have us HSAs. As far as the Party of No, Democrats filibustered Republican attempts at Medicare malpractice reforms and the association health plans.

Just, you know, FYI.

Originally Posted by theog

The unfortunate truth about the Republicans is that they did nothing on Health care... crap.. zip... nada damn thing while bush was in office.

Now, all of a sudden, they are the party of the "good ideas" on health care. Right...

Bunch of losers.

Get out of the way so Obama can do his job.

Actually, and I know this fact might be hard for you to accept, but the Republicans WERE out of the way--not because they wanted to be, but because that was the factual situation. Democrats (until the MA election) had TOTAL control over the Congress and Presidency. The fact is that Obama did his job so poorly, that even a Congress stacked with a supermajority in his party couldn't be convinced to follow his lead. Despite all the bribes, all the promises, and adoring media coverage, he couldn't get his signature issue out of Congress.

So, really--who is the "loser" here? The people with complete control over the entire process, who fail to accomplish their top priority, or the powerless minority.

Perhaps they'd be more effective if they didn't rely so heavily on scapegoats, and propaganda.

KAM

Originally Posted by groovy

You must have forgotten HIPAA. Also glaringly absent from your evaluation is the Medicare prescription drug act which also have us HSAs. As far as the Party of No, Democrats filibustered Republican attempts at Medicare malpractice reforms and the association health plans.

Just, you know, FYI.

Oh no "I" isn't relevant when some whining propaganda will suffice.

Did you also notice how the the actual cost issue (the actual point) was TOTALLY ignored in favor of the same old propaganda attack.

KAM

[xForsaken]

Originally Posted by clemgrad85

Your comments are exactly why I prefer not to help out folks like you. Yes, you laugh and giggle at the money we spend to save the world. I wonder....if the US of A didn't get the world involved to run Hussein (not Obama, the dead one) out of Kuwait....if we had just sat back and waited for....oh....let's say.....Canada....to do something about it, I wonder where we'd be right now. But of course, the good ole US of A came to the rescue of the World once again. Sure....other countries, including Canada....were involved in that little Kuwait squirmish....but I doubt anything would have been done without us making the first move. So just laugh and laugh....but one day....we'll probably save your and then maybe you'll stop laughing. You can keep Canada "bud".

ohhh struck a nerve, lol, again try reading the whole damn post. right to the very end

[davidra]

Originally Posted by groovy

You must have forgotten HIPAA. Also glaringly absent from your evaluation is the Medicare prescription drug act which also have us HSAs. As far as the Party of No, Democrats filibustered Republican attempts at Medicare malpractice reforms and the association health plans.

Just, you know, FYI.

Just so YOU know, HIPAA was signed into law by Bill Clinton in 1996. The Medicare prescription drug act was nothing but a handout to drug companies. You must favor banning the government from negotiating prices with private industry to save taxpayers money. Yeah, you picked fine examples of the republican commitment to health care. Figures.