Destroying Healthcare in America

[daThomas]

Originally Posted by Micael

Really... first you've heard of it? Just a silly scare tactic of the right?

Show me a Public Option and then I would agree there's a threat to insurance companies.

Otherwise you would have to educate me on how making Health Insurance mandatory is a threat to the health insurance industry.

[xForsaken]

Originally Posted by KAM1138

Actually, the free market DOES work--pretty much every time it is tried. We are already being pillaged--and it isn't under a free market system in regards to healthcare. It is a highly MANIPULATED system--already involving government.

I'm not sure what is unclear about this. The US government is heavily involved in the healthcare system, and in cooperation with insurance companies led us to where we are today. They have established this manipulated system which is pillaging us.

Free market practices are not in effect, or more accurately very effectively blocked in most cases. Test cases that increase free market forces have proven to be effective. (as referenced in the link I had a while back--here is is again: Mitch Daniels: Hoosiers and Health Savings Accounts - WSJ.com)

This sort of thing IS the viable alternative, that is working to the extent it is allowed, and will work even better if we allow it to.

By the way--the GOVERNMENT is the one who supposedly paid the $5000 for a hammer or toilet seat or whatever. In the free market that simply will not happen.

KAM

i do agree free market does work pretty much of the time, hmmmm ummm something wrong there, pretty much of the time, hmmm i am not sure i want to be the one its tested on. to me that smacks of ya this new fangled accelerator and braking system works pretty much of the time, hmmm toyota and now gm have found out otherwise hmmmm..
yes the GOVERNMENT supposedly paid for it, but it was a big corp who billed it in the first place. for one i can see ok someone in data entry screwed up. but if memory serves, there was quite a number of them. lemme guess same data entry clerk...
the free market system has one giant flaw. its called people/greed.

[davidra]

Originally Posted by KAM1138

Nonsense--I deal with facts related to this issue all the time. You literally just can't seem to deal with that in a rational way, so you literally deny anything and everything that doesn't agree with you--excepting of course whatever fragment you latch onto for your straw-man arguments. That would explain why your responses tend to be so off-base. I thought it was reading comprehension, but perhaps you literally do not see them.

Of course, this factually laughable accusation is especially hilarious coming from someone openly announcing that they just don't care about the realities of the issue--just providing healthcare. It is chilling to consider that someone can be so willfully ignorant.

Yes, I know that's all you care about--which is why listening to people like you, who live in denial of ALL the other issues are so wildly dangerous. You can pretend all you like that "the end justifies the means" in whatever ivory tower you reside in, but the rest of us have to deal with all these others issue that you so conveniently ignore.

I guess you are just so small-minded that you simply cannot accept that other views exist that disagree with you, and as such you pretend that there are no facts behind any of it. Its a wonderful fantasy you've woven for yourself where with the snap of your fingers, reality becomes what you want it to be--just because you say so.

You don't deal with ideas, facts or opinions contrary to yours in a rational manner, you instead simply characterize them all as invalid, relying on your position as a doctor to sustain your proclamations.

What you might find out, is that "my" concerns are not just mine, but those shared by many more common American citizens who are becoming more and more tired of a government that believes it rules over us, instead of serves us. Then again, perhaps people will just settle for this as they tend to do. Only the future will tell that I guess.

You had better hope that your cavalier attitude towards real issues are somehow resolved, because I am quite sure that the alternative will make this "crisis" look like a picnic.

And lastly--my concerns are of little interest. Yes, you prove that every time you respond to my posts.

KAM

Actually, you provide no facts whatsoever. What's interesting is that you don't recognize that. You link to opinion articles and provide no data. None.

And you can expound all you want about me in my ivory tower. In fact, you are the one that doesn't face the realities of the situation. I do. I do in my clinics every week, when people are dying because I can't refer them to anyone because they don't have insurance, or don't control their hypertension because they can't afford their medicines. You're the one who is "removed" from people that live this problem every day. You're the elitist, the one who bases your reality on some flawed pyschosocial philosophy that is NOT accepted by the majority of the country. You go on and be as paranoid as you want while those people that actually care and deal with these issues every day go ahead and fix things for you. The fact is simple: you know nothing about the reality of the situation.

[davidra]

Originally Posted by KAM1138

After all, the Ends Justify the means. Better yet--why don't we just kill all the rich people and take their money and use that to pay for healthcare. Just confiscate their property, and perhaps send their children to work camps.

Nothing else matters--as long as we can provide more healthcare (no worried about how many people will LOSE health care). After all--the ends justify the means.

KAM

Nobody will lose healthcare if everyone is covered. This is a great example of your absurd hyperbole and lack of reality. Pefect. You have shown us exactly how realistic you are.

Originally Posted by xForsaken

hey Kam, i have to ask, do you support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Yes.

KAM

Originally Posted by davidra

Nobody will lose healthcare if everyone is covered. This is a great example of your absurd hyperbole and lack of reality. Pefect. You have shown us exactly how realistic you are.

Yes, this unsustainable economic situation that you proudly, and stupidly dismiss, saying you don't care about it, is REALITY, genius. You might have delved so deep into your fantasy that you can't understand these REAL issues, but they in fact remain real.

Being accused of being unrealistic by someone so deeply engaged in willful ignorance and denial is like a badge of honor.


KAM

[davidra]

Originally Posted by KAM1138

Yes, this unsustainable economic situation that you proudly, and stupidly dismiss, saying you don't care about it, is REALITY, genius. You might have delved so deep into your fantasy that you can't understand these REAL issues, but they in fact remain real.

Being accused of being unrealistic by someone so deeply engaged in willful ignorance and denial is like a badge of honor.


KAM

Your reality is suggesting that those that favor providing health care to people are suggesting that all rich people be killed. Since that's what you said, I assume that is your reality. So by all means, wear your badge. See if you can find the pointed hat that goes with it. And spend some time re-reading what your Canadian friend said. Ask him how many rich people in Canada have been murdered in the name of health care. Really....you should give it up until you mature and educate yourself.

Originally Posted by davidra

Actually, you provide no facts whatsoever. What's interesting is that you don't recognize that. You link to opinion articles and provide no data. None.

Actually I discuss facts all the time. And again--I'm very tired of your dishonesty.

Originally Posted by davidra

And you can expound all you want about me in my ivory tower. In fact, you are the one that doesn't face the realities of the situation. I do. I do in my clinics every week, when people are dying because I can't refer them to anyone because they don't have insurance, or don't control their hypertension because they can't afford their medicines. You're the one who is "removed" from people that live this problem every day. You're the elitist, the one who bases your reality on some flawed pyschosocial philosophy that is NOT accepted by the majority of the country. You go on and be as paranoid as you want while those people that actually care and deal with these issues every day go ahead and fix things for you. The fact is simple: you know nothing about the reality of the situation.

You sure as hell don't speak for the majority of this country, and clearly aren't capable of even acknowledging the issues, let alone judging them in any objective manner.

Oh, yes, you "care" so, that enables you to deny the economic and other practical issues. Your emotional response to tragedy (as real as it is) doesn't change reality, no matter how much you wish it would.

You know what's really disgusting--your mindless support for the very government programs that fail to use the resources in their power to help these people. The government is ALREADY in control of enough money to cover every single person of those 47 million people with medical coverage at least as good as mine. Deal with those facts--the same ones I've been talking about for months, and which you NEVER deal with.

No facts? No--that's just the lie you hide behind, because to acknowledge them would mean you'd have to admit that those you faithfully worship are part of the problem. Your Beloved government is FAILING to cover these people, despite having the power in their hands. Today, right now. Your hero Obama tells us that we are wasting billions of dollars on Medicare, but instead of dealing with that today--using that money to help people, he's spending his efforts on expanding government instead of dealing with the problem, and you are more than happy to accept this.

These people that are suffering are in this position, because people like you enable and encourage the government to keep on failing, year after year. You not only accept it--you want to hand MORE power over to them.

The facts have been discussed again and again, but you simply refuse to deal with it. So, don't preach to me about how you are some sort of savior with your hands tied by people like me who want to END the abuse and waste. We don't hold that power--its been in the hands of your beloved government bureaucrats. Failure--criminal, failure in government is what keeps these poor people from getting the care they need and you demand we keep letting them do it.

Face this fact--YOU support the people who insure that these people you claim to care about continue to suffer from lack of care, despite having all the resources necessary to help them.

KAM

Originally Posted by davidra

Your reality is suggesting that those that favor providing health care to people are suggesting that all rich people be killed. Since that's what you said, I assume that is your reality. So by all means, wear your badge. See if you can find the pointed hat that goes with it. And spend some time re-reading what your Canadian friend said. Ask him how many rich people in Canada have been murdered in the name of health care. Really....you should give it up until you mature and educate yourself.

Yes, I guess I made the mistake of thinking you would recognize sarcasm, but I guess it really wasn't reasonable, given your track record.

What I was doing was pointing out the idiocy of your "The end justifies the means" statement, by presenting an absurd example that demonstrates how stupid your position is.

KAM

[davidra]

Originally Posted by KAM1138

Actually I discuss facts all the time. And again--I'm very tired of your dishonesty.



You sure as hell don't speak for the majority of this country, and clearly aren't capable of even acknowledging the issues, let alone judging them in any objective manner.

Oh, yes, you "care" so, that enables you to deny the economic and other practical issues. Your emotional response to tragedy (as real as it is) doesn't change reality, no matter how much you wish it would.

You know what's really disgusting--your mindless support for the very government programs that fail to use the resources in their power to help these people. The government is ALREADY in control of enough money to cover every single person of those 47 million people with medical coverage at least as good as mine. Deal with those facts--the same ones I've been talking about for months, and which you NEVER deal with.

No facts? No--that's just the lie you hide behind, because to acknowledge them would mean you'd have to admit that those you faithfully worship are part of the problem. Your Beloved government is FAILING to cover these people, despite having the power in their hands. Today, right now. Your hero Obama tells us that we are wasting billions of dollars on Medicare, but instead of dealing with that today--using that money to help people, he's spending his efforts on expanding government instead of dealing with the problem, and you are more than happy to accept this.

These people that are suffering are in this position, because people like you enable and encourage the government to keep on failing, year after year. You not only accept it--you want to hand MORE power over to them.

The facts have been discussed again and again, but you simply refuse to deal with it. So, don't preach to me about how you are some sort of savior with your hands tied by people like me who want to END the abuse and waste. We don't hold that power--its been in the hands of your beloved government bureaucrats. Failure--criminal, failure in government is what keeps these poor people from getting the care they need and you demand we keep letting them do it.

Face this fact--YOU support the people who insure that these people you claim to care about continue to suffer from lack of care, despite having all the resources necessary to help them.

KAM

As I said, and I am pretty sure I don't have to ever say it again....you know nothing of what you speak. End of story. Increase your knowledge base about the issues and then I'll consider having a discussion with you...but empty bluster on top of a paucity of knowledge is just waste of bandwidth...and you are a master at wasting bandwidth.

Originally Posted by xForsaken

i do agree free market does work pretty much of the time, hmmmm ummm something wrong there, pretty much of the time, hmmm i am not sure i want to be the one its tested on. to me that smacks of ya this new fangled accelerator and braking system works pretty much of the time, hmmm toyota and now gm have found out otherwise hmmmm..
yes the GOVERNMENT supposedly paid for it, but it was a big corp who billed it in the first place. for one i can see ok someone in data entry screwed up. but if memory serves, there was quite a number of them. lemme guess same data entry clerk...
the free market system has one giant flaw. its called people/greed.

If you read the articles I posted, you will see that (in small scale) it is already proven to work with health care, so you don't have to wonder.

I think perhaps you should read up on the free market a bit more thoroughly to understand better how it works, because you seem to have a number of misconceptions. That expensive hammer example isn't an exercise in the free market--it just wouldn't happen, and to understand this is a simple matter. If one place is offering hammers for $5000 (which is obviously inflated) someone else will offer one for $100 (still high) and no one engaging in a free market will buy one for $5000, but $100 is still too high, so someone offers one for $50, etc, etc. Only by VIOLATING a free market system would these sorts of obviously inflated prices exist.

Let me know if I can help you understand this further.

KAM

Originally Posted by davidra

As I said, and I am pretty sure I don't have to ever say it again....you know nothing of what you speak. End of story. Increase your knowledge base about the issues and then I'll consider having a discussion with you...but empty bluster on top of a paucity of knowledge is just waste of bandwidth...and you are a master at wasting bandwidth.

Yes, I know--you rely on this little fantasy all the time-you don't need to repeat it.

Oh, but you said "end of story." What's really funny in pathetic way is that you apparently believe that your declarations mean anything. But I guess if it helps you maintain the level of denial that you rely on and keep demonstrating, knock yourself out.

The fact remains--the government has the means at their disposal to help these poor people that you claim to care about, and they do not. That's a fact, one that you refuse to consider. You proudly support them in doing that. Sleep well with that fact.

KAM

[clemgrad85]

Originally Posted by davidra

Ah...but it's the "reasonable people" part that makes it a challenge. After all, some of those people want to do away with unemployment benefits. Or Medicare. Those on the right should be afraid, because once these get enacted, they will be very hard to do away with. Why? Because they HELP people, just like Medicare does. But of course, not everybody considers that to be a bad thing.

Geez......I wonder why? Maybe because some people, who only are looking for handouts, will vote to keep those in charge who continually take from one group and give to another. This simply can't continue. You can't keep taxing one group to give benefits to another group who are paying NO TAXES. At some point, the group having their taxes increased to support the other group finally just say it isn't worth it.

I again point out to those who want certain groups to pay more in taxes, please take this time of the year to put YOUR money where your mouth is and pay more taxes voluntarily. Someone like davidra, who I'm sure makes a nice living, should tell his accountant to please send an additional 3% of his income to the government. It's just 3% right? Surely you won't miss a measly 3%, right? So do it. In fact, why don't you encourage your rich doctor friends to do the same? Or daThomas, why not pay more in taxes as well? Take an additional $50 or so from your paycheck each week and just give it to the government. Just pay more taxes.....do it....why wouldn't you be doing this already? Don't you feel the government is a worthy "charity"? The next time you are about to make a contribution to an organization, stop, and put that money aside to pay additional taxes next year. Put YOUR money where your mouth is.....be a patriot!

Originally Posted by davidra

Actually, you provide no facts whatsoever. What's interesting is that you don't recognize that. You link to opinion articles and provide no data. None.

Typically, I am content to see you skulk away following one of your unique mixtures of arrogance and dishonesty, because I'm just sick of dealing with you, but not this time.

Now, here, your statements are so blatantly stupid, because they are demonstrably false. Throughout this discussion I have talked about many factual issues. One particular one today was about the fact that medical care providers in fact do charge the customer beyond what the insurer will pay for--a FACTUAL issue. I also discussed HSAs--another FACTUAL issue. And I discussed the fact that the government spends around 300 billion dollars on Medicaid a year, and that government spends about 20% of its total budget on medical costs.

So, when you say:

Originally Posted by davidra

Actually, you provide no facts whatsoever.

It is painfully obvious that this statement is a lie. A lie forwarded for the express purpose of avoiding dealing with these facts--if you deny something exists, then you can avoid dealing with it. That sort of self delusion must work for you, but this sort of statement (again a mixture of arrogance and dishonesty) is incredibly stupid. Why you insist on lying is beyond me to understand, but it is important to point out that you are in fact shamelessly lying in your attempt to attack me.

Of course, you aren't content with one pathetic attempt at deflection, you have to compound your first idiotic lie with another when you say:

Originally Posted by davidra

You link to opinion articles and provide no data. None.

First, one not so dependent on an air of arrogance to make up for their inability to discuss things in a rational manner, might realize that absolute statements like this are easily refuted, and avoid them. But then again--someone so comfortable with blatant lies wouldn't be expected to be reasonable.

Let me demonstrate how moronic this statement is as well by simply posting some excerpts:

BEGIN EXCERPTS
The HSA option has proven highly popular. This year, over 70% of our 30,000 Indiana state workers chose it, by far the highest in public-sector America. Due to the rejection of these plans by government unions, the average use of HSAs in the public sector across the country is just 2%.

The state is saving, too. In a time of severe budgetary stress, Indiana will save at least $20 million in 2010 because of our high HSA enrollment. Mercer calculates the state's total costs are being reduced by 11% solely due to the HSA option.

Most important, we are seeing significant changes in behavior, and consequently lower total costs. In 2009, for example, state workers with the HSA visited emergency rooms and physicians 67% less frequently than co-workers with traditional health care. They were much more likely to use generic drugs than those enrolled in the conventional plan, resulting in an average lower cost per prescription of $18. They were admitted to hospitals less than half as frequently as their colleagues.

Overall, participants in our new plan ran up only $65 in cost for every $100 incurred by their associates under the old coverage.
END EXCERPTS

It is plain to see, these contain various pieces of data and facts. So, again--you are lying--blatantly, intentionally lying. How you are able to delude yourself into thinking that your lie will work is a mystery.

I know you have a need to avoid discussing facts that don't fit into your simplistic political views, but I'm not in a mood to tolerate your nonsense any longer.
Earlier, you shot your mouth off about how you disliked HSAs, which is fine, but you made the following statement:

Originally Posted by davidra

One serious illness and admission will more than wipe out an HSA.

Now given that you regularly accuse others of having Zero understanding (again, a pathetic deflection), I found it interesting that you really didn't seem to understand that an HSA is combined with a high deductible insurance policy. As is your typical practice, when you are caught in a lie, or your straw man, or fabrications are pointed out, you skulk away.
An HSA wouldn't typically be wiped out, unless perhaps you had a major medical event in the first or second year (perhaps not even then, depending on how much you put into it). Insurance kicks in at some point.

I was confused, because I assumed you couldn't possibly be that ignorant, but perhaps that really is the case. What makes this particularly interesting is that if this is the case, it is a wonderful demonstration of your hypocrisy given that you are spouting off so often about how others don't know anything--with statements like: you know nothing of what you speak. And then you make a statement that seems to indicate you don't even understand the most basic concept about the thing you attack.

So, you've had quite a day--you've engaged in straw man argument, butted into a discussion in order to mouth off, and made a fool of yourself by ignoring the context of the discussion. You've demonstrated that you are a liar--multiple times. Then you run from factual discussions, all while accusing me of not discussing facts at all, which defines you as a hypocrite as well. And then you have the audacity to accuse others of wasting bandwidth.

Now, I honestly wish that these things weren't all demonstrated here, because such behavior is really such a pure example of everything wrong with internet discussion forums. You literally seem unable to engage in any sort of honest discussion. That in itself is bad enough, but then to listen to your arrogant prattle, where you attempt preen and strut around presenting yourself as some sort of scholar, when in reality--you're just another internet liar. I'm also well aware that none of this will make any difference, because you also apparently have no shame and are very comfortable with being dishonest.

This is summed up well with your statement here:

Originally Posted by davidra

Increase your knowledge base about the issues and then I'll consider having a discussion with you.

What the heck makes you think that after this display (on top of months of similar behavior) of incredible dishonesty that I'd WANT to have a discussion with you. In the past, I'd given you credit for your position, but you've clearly run out of justifications and have just moved onto pure deception and propaganda, because you can't deal with the facts that ARE being discussed.

Here's hoping I won't have to deal with your lies and nonsense again.

KAM

Originally Posted by clemgrad85

Geez......I wonder why? Maybe because some people, who only are looking for handouts, will vote to keep those in charge who continually take from one group and give to another. This simply can't continue. You can't keep taxing one group to give benefits to another group who are paying NO TAXES. At some point, the group having their taxes increased to support the other group finally just say it isn't worth it.

I again point out to those who want certain groups to pay more in taxes, please take this time of the year to put YOUR money where your mouth is and pay more taxes voluntarily. Someone like davidra, who I'm sure makes a nice living, should tell his accountant to please send an additional 3% of his income to the government. It's just 3% right? Surely you won't miss a measly 3%, right? So do it. In fact, why don't you encourage your rich doctor friends to do the same? Or daThomas, why not pay more in taxes as well? Take an additional $50 or so from your paycheck each week and just give it to the government. Just pay more taxes.....do it....why wouldn't you be doing this already? Don't you feel the government is a worthy "charity"? The next time you are about to make a contribution to an organization, stop, and put that money aside to pay additional taxes next year. Put YOUR money where your mouth is.....be a patriot!

Liberals tend to be extremely generous...with other peoples' money. They are more than willing to devote other people's money to "help" others and take the credit, and pat themselves on the back about how much they "care."

KAM

[davidra]

Originally Posted by KAM1138

What the heck makes you think that after this display (on top of months of similar behavior) of incredible dishonesty that I'd WANT to have a discussion with you. In the past, I'd given you credit for your position, but you've clearly run out of justifications and have just moved onto pure deception and propaganda, because you can't deal with the facts that ARE being discussed.

Here's hoping I won't have to deal with your lies and nonsense again.

KAM

Yawn. You reallly should consider politics. Your ability to waste time with useless blabbering and your inability to recognize the shallowness of your knowledge base should provide you with plenty of qualifications for a republican senate seat.

Please decrease your bandwidth use. Try and understand...people who make a difference don't care what you think.

[davidra]

Originally Posted by clemgrad85

Geez......I wonder why? Maybe because some people, who only are looking for handouts, will vote to keep those in charge who continually take from one group and give to another. This simply can't continue. You can't keep taxing one group to give benefits to another group who are paying NO TAXES. At some point, the group having their taxes increased to support the other group finally just say it isn't worth it.

What you and your ilk keep forgetting about health care access is that those who don't pay taxes are not the ones that are suffering. Around 80% of the uninsured are from working families that do pay taxes. Yes...we pay taxes to cover Medicare, and our states cover Medicaid, but those people have insurance. All you have to do is consider what was written about Canada. Their perspective has to do with "we". Yours has to do with "me". And as for what I do for those that don't have much, I am perfectly comfortable with my commitment.

[beerbatteredben]

I don't have health insurance because it costs too much.

I really hope my self diagnosed vertigo goes away on it's own.

Choosing between gambling and risking financial ruin is a lame idea. Let's not have Big Brother make the decision for us, though.

If we stop making our own decisions, we might forget how.

I'm sorry if these points were made already. There are a lot of posts on this mother.

wwjd

p.s. Some of the recent posts here have less value than mine. Why? Only because a man on the street who looked a lot like Stone Cold Steve Austin said so.

[clemgrad85]

Originally Posted by davidra

What you and your ilk keep forgetting about health care access is that those who don't pay taxes are not the ones that are suffering. Around 80% of the uninsured are from working families that do pay taxes. Yes...we pay taxes to cover Medicare, and our states cover Medicaid, but those people have insurance. All you have to do is consider what was written about Canada. Their perspective has to do with "we". Yours has to do with "me". And as for what I do for those that don't have much, I am perfectly comfortable with my commitment.

No, the difference....as I've stated before....is you believe the government is the answer and so we should raise taxes on those that have more money to fund the government programs.....while I (though not in that targeted $250K+ evil group) prefer to give my money to private organizations that I feel will better help those in need. That is why I encourage you to give more to the government.....you didn't comment on whether you would volunteer to give more to Uncle Sam? Why wouldn't you? Wouldn't that really be the better use of your money? Shouldn't you be encouraging other wealthy doctors to give more to Uncle Sam? Doesn't the government know better? All I'm saying is to put your money where your mouth is. Don't tell others they should be eager to pay higher taxes.....be a leader man! Show us the way!

[clemgrad85]

Originally Posted by davidra

What you and your ilk keep forgetting about health care access is that those who don't pay taxes are not the ones that are suffering. Around 80% of the uninsured are from working families that do pay taxes. Yes...we pay taxes to cover Medicare, and our states cover Medicaid, but those people have insurance. All you have to do is consider what was written about Canada. Their perspective has to do with "we". Yours has to do with "me". And as for what I do for those that don't have much, I am perfectly comfortable with my commitment.

By the way.....exactly what do you think my "ilk" is? I am curious. Also, I will agree with something you said....I go to work each day for me and my family. I honestly don't go to work for others....well....since many of the products I work with do help others, that is a positive thing....however....ultimately I do work to provide for my family. I wonder what percentage of people feel they work each day for others (outside their family)? You know....working so they can pay taxes to provide benefits for others. What percent, davidra, would you say do that?