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webOS Nation Forums > Other Forums > Off Topic > Destroying Healthcare in America
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Originally Posted by Micael:
Do we really want the government to decide who lives, who dies, and how?
We'll go from the choice of 100s of healthcare plans to one government one size fits all coverage where some beaurocrat in a basement somewhere decides if your mother gets surgery or pain killers based on a budget and cost savings to the already overburdened tax payers.
That'll work !! Oh no it doesn't, does it ?? *LOL* only in US. What they have in Hawaii should be mandatory all over the USDo we really want the government to decide who lives, who dies, and how?
We'll go from the choice of 100s of healthcare plans to one government one size fits all coverage where some beaurocrat in a basement somewhere decides if your mother gets surgery or pain killers based on a budget and cost savings to the already overburdened tax payers.
Originally Posted by kanzlr:
I usually don't participate in political discussions like that, but non-US countries where frequently mentioned, and I thought I tell you how it works here:
I live in Austria, EU, and we have a more or less government run insurance system. There are various insurance providers, but all owned by the government. Most professions have a dedicated one (like railway personel, farmers, etc.).
Basically, health insurance is deducted automatically from your income. In Austria, tax + insurance = approx. 50% of your income. I, for example, earn € 3900,-- a month, but only € 2000,-- make it to my bank account, the rest is kept for taxes and insurance (both health and pension).
While thats a lot, it guarantees that everybody in Austria gets the best possible health care, the hospitals are mostly top notch, and you don't have to pay anything, regardless of it being a cold or cancer. They try to use the cheapest among the best, like using generica where viable. I never needed much support from our health care system, other than refunding costs for glasses and two short stays at the hospital.
I think it boils down to the mindset. In Europe you seem to care more for the community, and a bit less for the individual.
Basically, if you stay healthy through all your life, you pay more than you consume, and support those who are less lucky.
It levels the cost and risk involved with getting ill. Even the most expensive treatment won't destroy your economical life, but you have to pay for that. Thats why it is called insurance.
Everybody gets it, everybody gets the best treatment, and everybody pays insurance according to his or her income.
There are private healtcare insurances, but they offer additional services, like always getting your own private room in the hospital, or paying for a doctor of choice if you want a private doctor, they pay you for each day you are sick and can't work, etc. So it is really a dual system, and I love it.
Basically, you never have to fear not being insured, you always get the best treatment. Maybe it is not fair for the individual, but it is ethical.
Oh no not at all. It's just that we're christian. I believe the god of worship i US is Mammon ?I usually don't participate in political discussions like that, but non-US countries where frequently mentioned, and I thought I tell you how it works here:
I live in Austria, EU, and we have a more or less government run insurance system. There are various insurance providers, but all owned by the government. Most professions have a dedicated one (like railway personel, farmers, etc.).
Basically, health insurance is deducted automatically from your income. In Austria, tax + insurance = approx. 50% of your income. I, for example, earn € 3900,-- a month, but only € 2000,-- make it to my bank account, the rest is kept for taxes and insurance (both health and pension).
While thats a lot, it guarantees that everybody in Austria gets the best possible health care, the hospitals are mostly top notch, and you don't have to pay anything, regardless of it being a cold or cancer. They try to use the cheapest among the best, like using generica where viable. I never needed much support from our health care system, other than refunding costs for glasses and two short stays at the hospital.
I think it boils down to the mindset. In Europe you seem to care more for the community, and a bit less for the individual.
Basically, if you stay healthy through all your life, you pay more than you consume, and support those who are less lucky.
It levels the cost and risk involved with getting ill. Even the most expensive treatment won't destroy your economical life, but you have to pay for that. Thats why it is called insurance.
Everybody gets it, everybody gets the best treatment, and everybody pays insurance according to his or her income.
There are private healtcare insurances, but they offer additional services, like always getting your own private room in the hospital, or paying for a doctor of choice if you want a private doctor, they pay you for each day you are sick and can't work, etc. So it is really a dual system, and I love it.
Basically, you never have to fear not being insured, you always get the best treatment. Maybe it is not fair for the individual, but it is ethical.
Originally Posted by KAM1138:
Hello Everyone,
Interesting Article
RealClearMarkets - Why Washington Can't Reform Healthcare
Excerpt:
Healthcare prices are fake, inflexible, and inflated because they are set not by the repeated interactions of buyers and sellers but by opaque acts of collusion between government bureaucrats and special interests. Even if this system were run by a benevolent genius who happened to set prices exactly "right" - whatever that means - these prices would be obsolete the moment they were published.
This state of affairs has turned the healthcare industry into a staggering zombie. It took several decades for Medicare price setting to swamp the price signals required to keep the market in balance, but we have clearly passed the tipping point. Lacking these signals and the constant corrections they engender, 16% of our economy is flying blind.
Add insurance to the equation, particularly insurance that the public has been encouraged to think of as free stuff paid for by someone else, and the problem only gets worse.
Can't we fix these problems by fixing insurance regulations? Contrary to popular belief, insurance companies love regulation. Regulation eliminates both business risk and pesky competitors. "Reforming" the insurance industry is not going to eliminate pricing dysfunctions, although it may eliminate insurance companies.
This speaks to the nature of the problem that Government has helped create, which has resulted in this "crisis." The solution being proposed--delving deeper into the problem.
So, whenever someone tells you they are going to "fix" healthcare, by repeating the same mistakes that destroyed it (to the extend it has), remember this, and treat them as the frauds they are.
KAM
Geeesss!Hello Everyone,
Interesting Article
RealClearMarkets - Why Washington Can't Reform Healthcare
Excerpt:
Healthcare prices are fake, inflexible, and inflated because they are set not by the repeated interactions of buyers and sellers but by opaque acts of collusion between government bureaucrats and special interests. Even if this system were run by a benevolent genius who happened to set prices exactly "right" - whatever that means - these prices would be obsolete the moment they were published.
This state of affairs has turned the healthcare industry into a staggering zombie. It took several decades for Medicare price setting to swamp the price signals required to keep the market in balance, but we have clearly passed the tipping point. Lacking these signals and the constant corrections they engender, 16% of our economy is flying blind.
Add insurance to the equation, particularly insurance that the public has been encouraged to think of as free stuff paid for by someone else, and the problem only gets worse.
Can't we fix these problems by fixing insurance regulations? Contrary to popular belief, insurance companies love regulation. Regulation eliminates both business risk and pesky competitors. "Reforming" the insurance industry is not going to eliminate pricing dysfunctions, although it may eliminate insurance companies.
This speaks to the nature of the problem that Government has helped create, which has resulted in this "crisis." The solution being proposed--delving deeper into the problem.
So, whenever someone tells you they are going to "fix" healthcare, by repeating the same mistakes that destroyed it (to the extend it has), remember this, and treat them as the frauds they are.
KAM
Hello Everyone,
This might be informative when someone talks about European systems.
RealClearMarkets - The Demise of the European Welfare Nation
KAM
This might be informative when someone talks about European systems.
RealClearMarkets - The Demise of the European Welfare Nation
KAM
btw, it is funny to see Americans describing Obama as socialist.
Even conservative parties in Europe are usually more leftist than the Democrats. From an European perspective, there are no left wing parties in the US (except maybe the Green party, but they're not really significant yet).
Even conservative parties in Europe are usually more leftist than the Democrats. From an European perspective, there are no left wing parties in the US (except maybe the Green party, but they're not really significant yet).
'My heart, my choice,' Williams says, defending decision for U.S. heart surgery
By Tara Brautigam (CP)
An unapologetic Danny Williams says he was aware his trip to the United States for heart surgery earlier this month would spark outcry, but he concluded his personal health trumped any public fallout over the controversial decision.
In an interview with The Canadian Press, Williams said he went to Miami to have a "minimally invasive" surgery for an ailment first detected nearly a year ago, based on the advice of his doctors.
"This was my heart, my choice and my health," Williams said late Monday from his condominium in Sarasota, Fla.
"I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics."
The 60-year-old Williams said doctors detected a heart murmur last spring and told him that one of his heart valves wasn't closing properly, creating a leakage.
He said he was told at the time that the problem was "moderate" and that he should come back for a checkup in six months.
Eight months later, in December, his doctors told him the problem had become severe and urged him to get his valve repaired immediately or risk heart failure, he said.
His doctors in Canada presented him with two options - a full or partial sternotomy, both of which would've required breaking bones, he said.
He said he spoke with and provided his medical information to a leading cardiac surgeon in New Jersey who is also from Newfoundland and Labrador. He advised him to seek treatment at the Mount Sinai Medical Center in Miami.
That's where he was treated by Dr. Joseph Lamelas, a cardiac surgeon who has performed more than 8,000 open-heart surgeries.
Williams said Lamelas made an incision under his arm that didn't require any bone breakage.
"I wanted to get in, get out fast, get back to work in a short period of time," the premier said.
Williams said he didn't announce his departure south of the border because he didn't want to create "a media gong show," but added that criticism would've followed him had he chose to have surgery in Canada.
"I would've been criticized if I had stayed in Canada and had been perceived as jumping a line or a wait list. ... I accept that. That's public life," he said.
"(But) this is not a unique phenomenon to me. This is something that happens with lots of families throughout this country, so I make no apologies for that."
Williams said his decision to go to the U.S. did not reflect any lack of faith in his own province's health care system.
"I have the utmost confidence in our own health care system in Newfoundland and Labrador, but we are just over half a million people," he said.
"We do whatever we can to provide the best possible health care that we can in Newfoundland and Labrador. The Canadian health care system has a great reputation, but this is a very specialized piece of surgery that had to be done and I went to somebody who's doing this three or four times a day, five, six days a week."
He quipped that he had "a heart of a 40-year-old, so that gives me 20 years new life," and said he intends to run in the next provincial election in 2011.
"I'm probably going to be around for a long time, hopefully, if God willing," he said.
"God forbid for the Canadian public I won't be around longer than ever."
Williams also said he paid for the treatment, but added he would seek any refunds he would be eligible for in Canada.
"If I'm entitled to any reimbursement from any Canadian health care system or any provincial health care system, then obviously I will apply for that as anybody else would," he said.
"But I wrote out the cheque myself and paid for it myself and to this point, I haven't even looked into the possibility of any reimbursement. I don't know what I'm entitled to, if anything, and if it's nothing, then so be it."
He is expected back at work in early March.
~~~
By Tara Brautigam (CP)
An unapologetic Danny Williams says he was aware his trip to the United States for heart surgery earlier this month would spark outcry, but he concluded his personal health trumped any public fallout over the controversial decision.
In an interview with The Canadian Press, Williams said he went to Miami to have a "minimally invasive" surgery for an ailment first detected nearly a year ago, based on the advice of his doctors.
"This was my heart, my choice and my health," Williams said late Monday from his condominium in Sarasota, Fla.
"I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics."
The 60-year-old Williams said doctors detected a heart murmur last spring and told him that one of his heart valves wasn't closing properly, creating a leakage.
He said he was told at the time that the problem was "moderate" and that he should come back for a checkup in six months.
Eight months later, in December, his doctors told him the problem had become severe and urged him to get his valve repaired immediately or risk heart failure, he said.
His doctors in Canada presented him with two options - a full or partial sternotomy, both of which would've required breaking bones, he said.
He said he spoke with and provided his medical information to a leading cardiac surgeon in New Jersey who is also from Newfoundland and Labrador. He advised him to seek treatment at the Mount Sinai Medical Center in Miami.
That's where he was treated by Dr. Joseph Lamelas, a cardiac surgeon who has performed more than 8,000 open-heart surgeries.
Williams said Lamelas made an incision under his arm that didn't require any bone breakage.
"I wanted to get in, get out fast, get back to work in a short period of time," the premier said.
Williams said he didn't announce his departure south of the border because he didn't want to create "a media gong show," but added that criticism would've followed him had he chose to have surgery in Canada.
"I would've been criticized if I had stayed in Canada and had been perceived as jumping a line or a wait list. ... I accept that. That's public life," he said.
"(But) this is not a unique phenomenon to me. This is something that happens with lots of families throughout this country, so I make no apologies for that."
Williams said his decision to go to the U.S. did not reflect any lack of faith in his own province's health care system.
"I have the utmost confidence in our own health care system in Newfoundland and Labrador, but we are just over half a million people," he said.
"We do whatever we can to provide the best possible health care that we can in Newfoundland and Labrador. The Canadian health care system has a great reputation, but this is a very specialized piece of surgery that had to be done and I went to somebody who's doing this three or four times a day, five, six days a week."
He quipped that he had "a heart of a 40-year-old, so that gives me 20 years new life," and said he intends to run in the next provincial election in 2011.
"I'm probably going to be around for a long time, hopefully, if God willing," he said.
"God forbid for the Canadian public I won't be around longer than ever."
Williams also said he paid for the treatment, but added he would seek any refunds he would be eligible for in Canada.
"If I'm entitled to any reimbursement from any Canadian health care system or any provincial health care system, then obviously I will apply for that as anybody else would," he said.
"But I wrote out the cheque myself and paid for it myself and to this point, I haven't even looked into the possibility of any reimbursement. I don't know what I'm entitled to, if anything, and if it's nothing, then so be it."
He is expected back at work in early March.
~~~
Originally Posted by kanzlr:
btw, it is funny to see Americans describing Obama as socialist.
Even conservative parties in Europe are usually more leftist than the Democrats. From an European perspective, there are no left wing parties in the US (except maybe the Green party, but they're not really significant yet).
Yeah... good thing we're not in Europe. But seriously, it's not about parties or wings - Obama is pushing socialist programs.btw, it is funny to see Americans describing Obama as socialist.
Even conservative parties in Europe are usually more leftist than the Democrats. From an European perspective, there are no left wing parties in the US (except maybe the Green party, but they're not really significant yet).
Originally Posted by Micael:
Yeah... good thing we're not in Europe. But seriously, it's not about parties or wings - Obama is pushing socialist programs.
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.Yeah... good thing we're not in Europe. But seriously, it's not about parties or wings - Obama is pushing socialist programs.
Originally Posted by Bujin:
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
I loved that movie, and you can go on thinking that if you wish You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
Originally Posted by Bujin:
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
]
Republicans need little words like that to keep them going... all they know at this point. Because they don't have a point. You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
]
To me it is odd though... even republicans want the same things the dems want... but the republicans want to do it a bit different... but we will end up in the same boat.
If the republicans increase gov't size and spending, we call it "doing the right thing to keep us safe" but if dems do it, we call it... by that word. lol
This Thursday "theater" will be such a scam. Republicans gotta go....but seriously....all a show. Another opportunity for Obama to sit there with that stupid grin on his face, his chin up in the air, thinking he is fooling the American people again. Not gonna fly this time....too many Americans are on to his BS.
Originally Posted by clemgrad85:
This Thursday "theater" will be such a scam. Republicans gotta go....but seriously....all a show. Another opportunity for Obama to sit there with that stupid grin on his face, his chin up in the air, thinking he is fooling the American people again. Not gonna fly this time....too many Americans are on to his BS.
Funny enough, I don't think obama is full of BS... he is making things happen... much more than Bush. This Thursday "theater" will be such a scam. Republicans gotta go....but seriously....all a show. Another opportunity for Obama to sit there with that stupid grin on his face, his chin up in the air, thinking he is fooling the American people again. Not gonna fly this time....too many Americans are on to his BS.
Without 911, Bush was a 1 term President. He was on his way out. I will say, he Handled 911... his team put together a plan and executed right on cue... before the dems could respond. It was excellent work. A+
Obama is making things happen without a 911. If obama has a 911, it will have the opposite effect anyway.
Hello Everyone,
Here's an article about HSAs--and an example of the potential benefits.
Mitch Daniels: Hoosiers and Health Savings Accounts - WSJ.com
Why solutions like this aren't being encouraged is a good question to ask.
Here's another article talking about similar topics.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...ce_104597.html
The system we've got now (and what is being suggested is an expansion of that system) has led us to where we are now--which is unsustainable costs. Repeating the same failures and changing to PR will lead to more failure.
KAM
Here's an article about HSAs--and an example of the potential benefits.
Mitch Daniels: Hoosiers and Health Savings Accounts - WSJ.com
Why solutions like this aren't being encouraged is a good question to ask.
Here's another article talking about similar topics.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...ce_104597.html
The system we've got now (and what is being suggested is an expansion of that system) has led us to where we are now--which is unsustainable costs. Repeating the same failures and changing to PR will lead to more failure.
KAM
Originally Posted by Micael:
Do we really want the government to decide who lives, who dies, and how?
We'll go from the choice of 100s of healthcare plans to one government one size fits all coverage where some beaurocrat in a basement somewhere decides if your mother gets surgery or pain killers based on a budget and cost savings to the already overburdened tax payers.
Better the government than for-profit companies.Do we really want the government to decide who lives, who dies, and how?
We'll go from the choice of 100s of healthcare plans to one government one size fits all coverage where some beaurocrat in a basement somewhere decides if your mother gets surgery or pain killers based on a budget and cost savings to the already overburdened tax payers.
Originally Posted by knobbysideup:
Better the government than for-profit companies.
Why? At least with private companies you have a choice who you deal with and an arbiter (the government) to appeal to, if you get the shaft. Better the government than for-profit companies.
Who exactly are you going to appeal to for help if the government gives you the shaft?
KAM
Originally Posted by KAM1138:
Hello Everyone,
Here's an article about HSAs--and an example of the potential benefits.
Mitch Daniels: Hoosiers and Health Savings Accounts - WSJ.com
Why solutions like this aren't being encouraged is a good question to ask.
Here's another article talking about similar topics.
RealClearPolitics - The Case for High-Deductible Health Insurance
The system we've got now (and what is being suggested is an expansion of that system) has led us to where we are now--which is unsustainable costs. Repeating the same failures and changing to PR will lead to more failure.
KAM
HSA's are great.....if you make enough money for that. HSA's do nothing to lower the cost of insurance. Hello Everyone,
Here's an article about HSAs--and an example of the potential benefits.
Mitch Daniels: Hoosiers and Health Savings Accounts - WSJ.com
Why solutions like this aren't being encouraged is a good question to ask.
Here's another article talking about similar topics.
RealClearPolitics - The Case for High-Deductible Health Insurance
The system we've got now (and what is being suggested is an expansion of that system) has led us to where we are now--which is unsustainable costs. Repeating the same failures and changing to PR will lead to more failure.
KAM
Right now the only way to get insurance is
-Be a bum. yes, bums have free healthcare provided by me and you. its medicaid
-Be old. Medicare.
-Have a job that provides it for you (which wont last at current rate of ins. hikes)
-Make enough money to afford it (private insurance runs a normal person [not family] $1200/month)
HSA's are not the answer if your goal is to provide affordable healthcare to WORKING AMERICANS making between 30,000-50,000 who dont have employee-sponsored healthcare
Originally Posted by :
Do we really want the government to decide who lives, who dies, and how?
and you really think that is whats happening in Europe?Do we really want the government to decide who lives, who dies, and how?
The government doesn't decide anything. The insurance companies aren't owned by the government, but by the state. And they don't decide anything. They pay all the treatments that are recommended by the docter, as long as they are on a list of accepted forms of therapy (and basically everything useful is).
Originally Posted by KAM1138:
The system we've got now (and what is being suggested is an expansion of that system) has led us to where we are now--which is unsustainable costs. Repeating the same failures and changing to PR will lead to more failure.
KAM
How in the world is anything that is being suggested an expansion of our current system? That is a flat out lie. Or you are misinformed. The system we've got now (and what is being suggested is an expansion of that system) has led us to where we are now--which is unsustainable costs. Repeating the same failures and changing to PR will lead to more failure.
KAM
1. We dont currently have national healthcare exchanges.
2. We cant buy insurance across state lines.
3. We cant do anything if an insurance company drops us the second we need to use it.
4. Medicare advantage will be abolished. Notice I said medicare ADVANTAGE. This is an unfunded liability that will save us a lot of money.
If you dont think that is enough, why dont you push your rep to favor the public option?
Originally Posted by KAM1138:
Why? At least with private companies you have a choice who you deal with and an arbiter (the government) to appeal to, if you get the shaft.
Who exactly are you going to appeal to for help if the government gives you the shaft?
KAM
A choice? What choice? They have no rules that bind them to anything. do you have a choice when you get cancer and your ins. company drops you because you had acne when you were 16? (preexisting condition). And I'm not kidding....a lady was diagnosed with breast cancer and that was the reason the denied her payments for the surgery. She had to come up with half the cost of the operation. Do you think she has a choice at that point? Only choice is what casket she wants.Why? At least with private companies you have a choice who you deal with and an arbiter (the government) to appeal to, if you get the shaft.
Who exactly are you going to appeal to for help if the government gives you the shaft?
KAM
Right now the insurance company tells the doctors what they can and cannot do for you. If they wont pay, the doctor wont do it. What is the focus of insurance companies?....profit. I hate the FACT that the decision on my health/life is decided by someone elses profit. That happens RIGHT NOW.
What the health insurance reform bills do is to set up laws stating that insurance companies cannot deny payment for things that doctors deem necessary to your health. Hmm, that sounds kind of nice, doesnt it?
Originally Posted by piaband:
HSA's do nothing to lower the cost of insurance.
I totally disagree with this statement. HSA's force you to pay closer attention to the cost and procedures that are being advised. I know, because I have one and I have saved not only my money, but the insurance company money as well. I was being prescribed a HBP medication and the first one worked fine. I tried some samples for 3 weeks and all was good. When I asked the doctor how much the pills cost (she told me it was a new medication) she said about $85 per month. Well, under the HSA plan that comes directly from my pocket. I asked if there was something else I could try and she had me try a generic HBP medication that had been around for awhile and it worked just fine. The cost? $5.60 per month! HSA's do nothing to lower the cost of insurance.
The second incident occurred when she was going to send me for a thalium stress test (odd EKG prompted this). So, I was cool with that until I found out that it cost over $2100 and was advised to determine if you had a stroke or if there was blockage. I ended up going to a cardiologist and after my 3rd EKG (grrrrrrrrr) and a review of my exercise program (I exercise quite a bit, and am in pretty good shape) he said the thalium stress test was not needed. So, I did have to spend $350 at the cardiologist, but that saved me $1750! No savings?
Originally Posted by piaband:
HSA's are not the answer if your goal is to provide affordable healthcare to WORKING AMERICANS making between 30,000-50,000 who dont have employee-sponsored healthcare
I will agree with you here, HSA's are not for everyone. But, for folks who can afford to fund the HSA savings element, or if the employer is contributing, or if you have a fair amount of personal savings, it is a very good option. But, if you live paycheck to paycheck, I agree, not the best program. But why take it away from those people who can take advantage of it? It reduced my premiums, and it gives me incentive to ask questions and to "shop" my doctor (I know davidra will hate that some people would dare "shop" a doctor).HSA's are not the answer if your goal is to provide affordable healthcare to WORKING AMERICANS making between 30,000-50,000 who dont have employee-sponsored healthcare
webOS Nation Forums > Other Forums > Off Topic > Destroying Healthcare in America
