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  1.    #1  
    I just watched this kickass video by Kevin Sites from Fallujah -- intensely, well edited stuff (shot under dangerous difficult conditions)

    (BTW -- it comes from 2004 -- but still worth watching to appreciate what its like for american soldiers to fight a street battle in an urban environment).
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/10/2005 at 04:26 PM.
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  2. #2  
    Great video to post on the 230th birthday of my beloved Corps!

    Fallujah will go down in Marine Corps history with Hue City, the Chosin, Guadalcanal and Belleau Wood. I will forever hold my manhood cheap to those that served there those days.
  3. cardio's Avatar
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    #3  
    Semper-Fi

    Happy 230th USMC!
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I just watched this kickass video by Kevin Sites from Fallujah -- intensely, well edited stuff (shot under dangerous difficult conditions)

    (BTW -- it comes from 2004 -- but still worth watching to appreciate what its like for american soldiers to fight a street battle in an urban environment).
    Nice find! Thanks

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  5.    #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Nice find! Thanks

    I’m glad everyone was as impressed as me by that veteran’s day video.

    It is incredible to see what those men (and boys) have had to do under terrifyingly awful conditions -- using their initiative and courage to move against hidden unseen enemies, braving sniper bullets and RPG rounds to overcome the insurgents and achieve their objectives.

    But Fallujah represents not just the heroism of those Marines, but also the failure of US strategy and vision in Iraq that has wasted that bravery.

    As you probably remember, the first battle of Fallujah grew from an atrocity committed against 4 Blackwater mercenaries. Deliberately “lost” by their guide, they were lead into an ambush. The 4 were savagely attacked, their bodies mutilated, burnt, and hung from a bridge. Ordinary townspeople and children joined insurgents in the orgy of brutality.

    The Marines who had until then tried to maintain a relatively low profile non-antagonistic relationship with the people of Fallujah, felt pressured to interject themselves aggressively into the city. Washington insisted that they capture and punish the perpetrators, and assert control. Rumsfield and junior felt that it was an intolerable affront to the image of american strength for this event to go unpunished.

    But it was a trap. The atrocity was planned to provoke the americans. It was an atrocity designed to induce our forces to transform from civil engineers into leather booted storm troopers. This atrocity was a lure to draw us into a tar pit of blood, vengeance and death where we could only finish as losers. It was a trap where the insurgents would reveal us as how they wanted us to be seen: as foreign crusaders who were the average Iraqi’s enemy.

    With insufficient troops to completely seal the city’s parameter and contain escaping senior leaders, the Marines were sent in to fight block by block against fierce resistance. It was the first major organized combat in Iraq post the fall of Saddam.

    Images like that video’s -– but from the insurgent’s side –- dominated arab and Iraqi Satellite TVs. The gore, destruction, and horror of a battle amidst civilians was played nightly on the kitchen tables of Iraqis.

    Fallujah -– a Sunni place not universally loved –- got transformed in the minds of average Iraqis into this hero city -- a place defending Iraqi independence and honor to the death against impossible odds.

    Even Shiite leader Mokhtar al Sadr identified with Fallujah’s resistance and sent help to the insurgents.

    Though Marines had the battle nearly won, Washington decided that the damage caused by that onslaught of nightly images was taking too great a toll. The Marines are ordered to withdraw without completing their assigned mission.

    Fallujah was seen as victorious. Its citizens, left simmering in anger at the heavy damage wrought by our battle and the injuries and deaths to their sons and daughters, are a sympathetic ocean in which the insurgents swim.

    We leave, authorizing Iraqi troops to take over control of Fallujah -- but they are soon either coopted or killed. The insurgents reoccupy Fallujah and assert control even more flagrantly than before -- and openly use it as a base from which to support and launch attacks elsewhere against our forces.

    Eventually we go back to Fallujah to fight yet again.

    And as before they haven’t sufficient forces to circle the city to prevent the escape of people like Zarquawi, who was believed to have been there.

    This time the battle continues to a conclusion, and Fallujah is mostly destroyed. Gradually the people of Fallujah are allowed to return, though behind their outward smiles they secretly hate us.

    The battles create and recruit as many insurgents as we kill.

    Americans continue to die Fallujah.

    Like in Vietnam, our forces are pushed to deliver short term tactical victory at the cost of long term strategic defeat.
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/11/2005 at 03:59 PM.
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  6. cardio's Avatar
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    #6  
    Though Marines had the battle nearly won, Washington decided that the damage caused by that onslaught of nightly images was taking too great a toll. The Marines are ordered to withdraw without completing their assigned mission.

    Great illustration of why we can not pull out until the battle is won. The video is an example of some of our countries finest men and women doing what they volunteered to do. Anyone who politicizes it should be ashamed of themselves.
  7.    #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Great illustration of why we can not pull out until the battle is won. The video is an example of some of our countries finest men and women doing what they volunteered to do. Anyone who politicizes it should be ashamed of themselves.

    Cardio, you don't address my main point: that Fallujah, like Viet Nam, like Iraq itself -- were tactical successes that disguised strategic blunders.

    They were battles unnecessarily engaged without a complete understanding of the real problem or the more difficult slower path that required intelligence and patience.

    It was a mistake to take the insurgents bait by responding to the Fallujah atrocity as we did.
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/12/2005 at 04:33 PM.
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  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I’m glad everyone was as impressed as me by that veteran’s day video.

    It is incredible to see what those men (and boys) have had to do under terrifyingly awful conditions -- using their initiative and courage to move against hidden unseen enemies, braving sniper bullets and RPG rounds to overcome the insurgents and achieve their objectives.

    But Fallujah represents not just the heroism of those Marines, but also the failure of US strategy and vision in Iraq that has wasted that bravery.

    As you probably remember, the first battle of Fallujah grew from an atrocity committed against 4 Blackwater mercenaries. Deliberately “lost” by their guide, they were lead into an ambush. The 4 were savagely attacked, their bodies mutilated, burnt, and hung from a bridge. Ordinary townspeople and children joined insurgents in the orgy of brutality.

    The Marines who had until then tried to maintain a relatively low profile non-antagonistic relationship with the people of Fallujah, felt pressured to interject themselves aggressively into the city. Washington insisted that they capture and punish the perpetrators, and assert control. Rumsfield and junior felt that it was an intolerable affront to the image of american strength for this event to go unpunished.

    But it was a trap. The atrocity was planned to provoke the americans. It was an atrocity designed to induce our forces to transform from civil engineers into leather booted storm troopers. This atrocity was a lure to draw us into a tar pit of blood, vengeance and death where we could only finish as losers. It was a trap where the insurgents would reveal us as how they wanted us to be seen: as foreign crusaders who were the average Iraqi’s enemy.

    With insufficient troops to completely seal the city’s parameter and contain escaping senior leaders, the Marines were sent in to fight block by block against fierce resistance. It was the first major organized combat in Iraq post the fall of Saddam.

    Images like that video’s -– but from the insurgent’s side –- dominated arab and Iraqi Satellite TVs. The gore, destruction, and horror of a battle amidst civilians was played nightly on the kitchen tables of Iraqis.

    Fallujah -– a Sunni place not universally loved –- got transformed in the minds of average Iraqis into this hero city -- a place defending Iraqi independence and honor to the death against impossible odds.

    Even Shiite leader Mokhtar al Sadr identified with Fallujah’s resistance and sent help to the insurgents.

    Though Marines had the battle nearly won, Washington decided that the damage caused by that onslaught of nightly images was taking too great a toll. The Marines are ordered to withdraw without completing their assigned mission.

    Fallujah was seen as victorious. Its citizens, left simmering in anger at the heavy damage wrought by our battle and the injuries and deaths to their sons and daughters, are a sympathetic ocean in which the insurgents swim.

    We leave, authorizing Iraqi troops to take over control of Fallujah -- but they are soon either coopted or killed. The insurgents reoccupy Fallujah and assert control even more flagrantly than before -- and openly use it as a base from which to support and launch attacks elsewhere against our forces.

    Eventually we go back to Fallujah to fight yet again.

    And as before they haven’t sufficient forces to circle the city to prevent the escape of people like Zarquawi, who was believed to have been there.

    This time the battle continues to a conclusion, and Fallujah is mostly destroyed. Gradually the people of Fallujah are allowed to return, though behind their outward smiles they secretly hate us.

    The battles create and recruit as many insurgents as we kill.

    Americans continue to die Fallujah.

    Like in Vietnam, our forces are pushed to deliver short term tactical victory at the cost of long term strategic defeat.
    Wow. You even use the Mao verbiage in your diatribe. Harkening right back to the glory days, eh?

    As far Americans dying in Fallujah, did you bother to read the blog entry that accompanied the video?

    I knew, I just KNEW, you'd find a way to politicize this.
  9. cardio's Avatar
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    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Cardio, you don't address my main point: that Fallujah, like Viet Nam, like Iraq itself -- were tactical successes that disguised strategic defeats.

    They were battles unnecessarily engaged without a complete understanding of the real problem or the more difficult slower path that required intelligence and patience.

    It was a mistake to take the insurgents bait by responding to the Fallujah atrocity as we did.
    Who should decide what atrocity to respond to and which ones we should allow to go unchecked?
  10.    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    As far Americans dying in Fallujah, did you bother to read the blog entry that accompanied the video?

    not until you pointed me to it.

    The Marines had begun to do that civil affairs stuff before the first Fallujah battle.

    I wish that they had been allowed to continue that civil affairs stuff despite the Blackwater provocation.

    Obviously It would have been politically tough to have done that -- for junior to have been seen as a wimp. But a stronger more intelligent leader would have recognized that responding to terrorists by hurting civilians only helps the terrorists.

    They should not have attacked Fallujah.

    By pulling out just short of victory they chose the worst of the 3 scenarios.
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/12/2005 at 02:58 AM.
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  11.    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Who should decide what atrocity to respond to and which ones we should allow to go unchecked?

    A President who does not need to prove his own courage with other peoples sons.

    That atrocity was a trap -- a deliberate trap -- but it would have been hard for any President to have resisted responding.

    To their enormous credit, I recall that the Marines initially opposed Washington's wish for them to go to war in Fallujah.

    Marines perhaps more than any other element of our armed forces have learned how insurgencies are won and lost.

    Angering the civilians who look the same as the terrorists is not one of the smarter things to do ...
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/12/2005 at 02:53 AM.
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  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I’m glad everyone was as impressed as me by that veteran’s day video.

    It is incredible to see what those men (and boys) have had to do under terrifyingly awful conditions -- using their initiative and courage to move against hidden unseen enemies, braving sniper bullets and RPG rounds to overcome the insurgents and achieve their objectives.
    Would you expect anything less from the Marines?

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    But Fallujah represents not just the heroism of those Marines, but also the failure of US strategy and vision in Iraq that has wasted that bravery.
    It represents different things to different people. You do have to admit that you focus on certain aspects more than others. I watched the video and just appreciated how tough those leathernecks are. I don't have to read into it anything else (or let something else take away from it.)

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    But it was a trap. The atrocity was planned to provoke the americans. It was an atrocity designed to induce our forces to transform from civil engineers into leather booted storm troopers. This atrocity was a lure to draw us into a tar pit of blood, vengeance and death where we could only finish as losers.
    We didn't have to finish as losers. Tactically I would have preferred it to have been done on a much smaller scale (less of a target so to speak).

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Though Marines had the battle nearly won, Washington decided that the damage caused by that onslaught of nightly images was taking too great a toll. The Marines are ordered to withdraw without completing their assigned mission.
    That's the problem between commanders in the field and bureaucrats at the desk.
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  13. #13  
    men, that is some intense stuff.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by tj8212
    men, that is some intense stuff.
    Yes. Yes it is.

    There isn't a shade of difference between the young men that took Fallujah last year and those that took Hue City in 1968, or went up Suribachi in 1945, or went "over the top" at Belleau Wood.

    There is one constant in this nation, and that is the Marines still make'em like they used to.
  15.    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Would you expect anything less from the Marines?

    It represents different things to different people. You do have to admit that you focus on certain aspects more than others. I watched the video and just appreciated how tough those leathernecks are. I don't have to read into it anything else (or let something else take away from it.)

    We didn't have to finish as losers. Tactically I would have preferred it to have been done on a much smaller scale (less of a target so to speak).

    That's the problem between commanders in the field and bureaucrats at the desk.

    we all see and understand things through our own prism.

    I posted that link to that video mostly because it was an incredible video -- on several levels.

    It was germane because it was veterans day, and it demonstrated the unbelievable courage that those Marines have fighting in an urban battlefield. And it was incredible as well because it showed the bravery and skill of Kevin Sites.

    It is head poundingly intense, scary video.

    But Fallujah has also always been for me the moment when Iraq turned irretrievably bad.

    Mind you, I think there were many bad forks in the road to calamity, when different choices could have changed the outcome.

    1.junior going to the UN under the duress of Tony Blair to seek a UN mandate. He did it in a pro forma way, transparently determined to go to war in any event -- while barely disguising his contempt for the UN, Germany, Russia -- and France in particular.

    2. insincerely consenting to the last minute intense WMD inspection that Saddam had finally agreed to --

    3. turning down the last minute offers Saddam had made through third parties to resign and go into exile. (a report I heard)

    4. refusing to give the UN inspectors the little extra time needed to complete their inspections.

    5. depending on exiled iraqis both for the intelligence and rationale for the war -- as well as for the ideas and implementation of the reconstruction and rehabilitation of post war iraqi society.

    6. Not sending the numbers of troops that Army professionals believed necessary to secure and control Iraq after the fall of Saddam --

    7. Allowing civil disorder, chaos, and anarchy to dismantle and destroy Iraq’s infrastructure and society. Sending troops to guard the oil ministry for example, but not one of the most important museum collections in the world.

    8. reserving the giant reconstruction projects for the cronies connected to junior and cheney, while arrogantly telling non-american companies to move along -– declaring that no contractor need bid except us –- thereby further alienating potential friends in advance of our later needing them.

    9. Hiring foreign (i.e. american) contractors, importing foreign workers and resources when all were abundantly available in iraq -- at far less cost.

    10. dismissing iraq's officers, army, and police -– thereby requiring overstretched american troops unfamiliar with this foreign land’s language, culture, or mores -- to police almost the entire country themselves.

    11. Giving direct control of Iraq’s reconstruction to the neo-cons at the Pentagon, instead of civil affairs professionals at the State Dept. who had experience in these issues. The neo-cons came to the task more interested in demonstrating their philosophical agenda -- than understanding the specific needs of this nation, this culture, at this time.

    12. Attacking the city of Fallujah -– falling for the trap set by the insurgents, instead of patiently turning the other cheek in response to the atrocity committed against the 4 Blackwater mercenaries.

    Employing white phosphorous munitions in an urban fight where civilian women and children are clearly present (which delivered the horrific pictures that arab viewers got to see –- unlike americans).

    If Zarquawi and other insurgent leaders were in Fallujah, if that was one of the primary rationales for the attacks -– why were they twice allowed to escape???

    Why was the second Fallujah battle deliberately delayed until after the Presidential election ?? Our forces which had gathered near Fallujah, sacrificed any hope of surprise, while not completely controlling the city’s parameter.


    I would not have fought in Fallujah. I would not have fought on a field of my enemy’s choosing. If Fallujah was a staging point for the insurgents, we should have deployed sufficient numbers of troops, armour, mines, and barb wire etc. to completely surround that city. Multiple entry and exit points would have been established where every vehicle and pedestrian coming or going could be checked for arms -– and with individuals against a most wanted list.

    Our troops defeated the Iraq army, defeated the insurgents in Fallujah, and will certainly prevail in every fight they’ll have in Iraq.

    In Viet Nam we also won every tactical engagement -- but we were still in the end, defeated. (BTW, I may be going there in a couple of weeks).

    That's why its so criminal that more has not been learnt from both 9/11 and Iraq.

    When a government is controlled by a single group -- and that group is responsible both for the failures and a rigorous investigation of them -- you cannot expect a truly serious examination of what’s gone wrong.

    When someone (cough- junior -cough) tells you that its not important to focus on the past, that we should instead look to the future, everyone's bullsht klaxon should start to wail.

    Anything less than an investigation conducted by an adversarial panel with unlimited subpoena power is likely be some kind of white wash.

    Lives are invested in the experience gained during failure -- the living should honor those that sacrificed themselves by learning from that knowledge.
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/13/2005 at 12:06 AM.
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  16.    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Yes. Yes it is.

    There isn't a shade of difference between the young men that took Fallujah last year and those that took Hue City in 1968, or went up Suribachi in 1945, or went "over the top" at Belleau Wood.

    There is one constant in this nation, and that is the Marines still make'em like they used to.

    Hue was a battle most like Fallujah. It was a bloody, ferocious slugfest in a city. A city with both civilians and sites precious to Viet Nam’s cultural heritage.


    I've mentioned previously that I got much of what I pretend to know of military stuff from the time I spent working in a minor capacity for Gary Hart.

    Hart was an opponent of the Viet Nam war who became George McGovern's campaign manger -- before being elected Colorado's Senator. Gary was (is) a serious thinker -- and he devoted considerable thought to the reasons why we have a military -- and how that role can best be performed.

    Despite his very liberal reputation, he gained the trust of very conservative military professionals -- men who had experienced Viet Nam and wanted to rethink the conventional heavy metal cold war doctrines.

    I confess that before Gary Hart (and an influential history professor of mine) I had no appreciation of the Marines. I would have happily agreed with the conventional wisdom of the day which was to eliminate their redundant vestigial role, and merge them into the army where they belonged.

    Why did they need to have their own air force -- in addition to the naval aviation which was already auxiliary to them ?? We had commando forces, why did we also need marines ?? Why did we want or even need to have a force devoted to amphibious landing -- that was so anachronistically john wayne .

    Gary Hart learnt that the Marines as a group were accustomed to depending on themselves for success. Because they were a lightweight fast attack force – they paid particular attention to their own wiles and initiative in achieving victory. They were in attitude prepared to think unconventionally, and value agility of thought and deed.

    They felt that they needed air support that were dedicated specifically to assisting them in the achievement of their missions -– not as a tertiary obligation.

    Hart became a champion of the Marines (and unconventional warriors –- like the SEALs, GBs, Rangers etc.) He advocated smaller, lighter weight, less expensive airplanes like the F-16, and A10 –- as opposed to the F15.

    At a time when the navy wanted huge mega-carriers and their associated fleets –- Gary worked for smaller faster attack carriers, equipped with planes like the Harrier (a disappointing plane, in retrospect).

    He understood that Marines were in mind set and gear, much more appropriately deployable to a post cold war conflict, world.
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/13/2005 at 12:11 AM.
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  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Yes. Yes it is.

    There isn't a shade of difference between the young men that took Fallujah last year and those that took Hue City in 1968, or went up Suribachi in 1945, or went "over the top" at Belleau Wood.

    There is one constant in this nation, and that is the Marines still make'em like they used to.
    Tried by fire.
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  18. #18  
    I normally agree with your points but just for arguments sake:

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    we all see and understand things through our own prism.

    I posted that link to that video mostly because it was an incredible video -- on several levels.

    It was germane because it was veterans day, and it demonstrated the unbelievable courage that those Marines have fighting in an urban battlefield. And it was incredible as well because it showed the bravery and skill of Kevin Sites.

    It is head poundingly intense, scary video.
    I agree with all of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    But Fallujah has also always been for me the moment when Iraq turned irretrievably bad.

    Mind you, I think there were many bad forks in the road to calamity, when different choices could have changed the outcome.
    Which happens in every war (since non are completed in a 'perfect' sense.)
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    1.junior going to the UN under the duress of Tony Blair to seek a UN mandate. He did it in a pro forma way, transparently determined to go to war in any event -- while barely disguising his contempt for the UN, Germany, Russia -- and France in particular.
    He still went (even when he didnt need to...that counts for something.)
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    2. insincerely consenting to the last minute intense WMD inspection that Saddam had finally agreed to --
    Not like they were doing any good?
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    3. turning down the last minute offers Saddam had made through third parties to resign and go into exile. (a report I heard)
    You REALLY think Sadaam (who has thumbed his nose at everyone) was really going to go into exile...come on.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    4. refusing to give the UN inspectors the little extra time needed to complete their inspections.
    Which would have showed what? That he didnt have WMD's. Im convinced if he had them, he used them or got rid of them. On the other hand, I'm not sure if he ever had them. Going into IRAQ really wasn't about WMD's, it was an opportunity to take Sadaam out and to try to stabilize that area. Is that what 'we' were told. No. Did I still want Sadaam out? Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    5. depending on exiled iraqis both for the intelligence and rationale for the war -- as well as for the ideas and implementation of the reconstruction and rehabilitation of post war iraqi society.
    Whats wrong with this?
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    6. Not sending the numbers of troops that Army professionals believed necessary to secure and control Iraq after the fall of Saddam --
    I didn't like this but if we have to go to war, then there are going to be times when we don't have perfect conditions. The military doesnt ***** about it, they just get the job done the best way they can.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    7. Allowing civil disorder, chaos, and anarchy to dismantle and destroy Iraq’s infrastructure and society. Sending troops to guard the oil ministry for example, but not one of the most important museum collections in the world.
    Allowing? I don't know if that is the correct term. Accepting that some people will take advantage during the war? Sure. We can't expect our troops to protect everything. What were the terrorists likely to destroy? The oil or the museums?
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    8. reserving the giant reconstruction projects for the cronies connected to junior and cheney, while arrogantly telling non-american companies to move along -– declaring that no contractor need bid except us –- thereby further alienating potential friends in advance of our later needing them.
    Didnt like it but we have to keep some control over how things are implemented.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    9. Hiring foreign (i.e. american) contractors, importing foreign workers and resources when all were abundantly available in iraq -- at far less cost.
    Cheaper does not mean 'better'.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    10. dismissing iraq's officers, army, and police -– thereby requiring overstretched american troops unfamiliar with this foreign land’s language, culture, or mores -- to police almost the entire country themselves.
    How good have their troops/police been? (just about worthless).
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    11. Giving direct control of Iraq’s reconstruction to the neo-cons at the Pentagon, instead of civil affairs professionals at the State Dept. who had experience in these issues. The neo-cons came to the task more interested in demonstrating their philosophical agenda -- than understanding the specific needs of this nation, this culture, at this time.
    Maybe...hard to say who was really calling the shots.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    12. Attacking the city of Fallujah -– falling for the trap set by the insurgents, instead of patiently turning the other cheek in response to the atrocity committed against the 4 Blackwater mercenaries.
    I am not convinced that the ONLY reason why we engaged Fallujah was because 4 civilians were killed. Seems pretty far fetched...if you have a link to something that might shed a little more light than your opinion, that would help.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Employing white phosphorous munitions in an urban fight where civilian women and children are clearly present (which delivered the horrific pictures that arab viewers got to see –- unlike americans).
    Women and children are shooting at our troops? Are they not allowed to engage them? I don't want civilians to be killed but they knew we were coming. If you were in their position and you stayed, then you are taking your own chances.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    If Zarquawi and other insurgent leaders were in Fallujah, if that was one of the primary rationales for the attacks -– why were they twice allowed to escape???
    You phrase it like it was intentional. Do you REALLY think that if we could capture Zarquawi that we would just let him walk away? Seems pretty far-fetched.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Why was the second Fallujah battle deliberately delayed until after the Presidential election ?? Our forces which had gathered near Fallujah, sacrificed any hope of surprise, while not completely controlling the city’s parameter.
    Im not sure...but to imply that it was political would be a weak argument if you don't have any other information.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I would not have fought in Fallujah.
    Then you would not have been a Marine. Marines don't ***** and they do what they are told. They put their personal feelings aside and accomplish the mission. Period.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I would not have fought on a field of my enemy’s choosing.
    It's nice when you have that luxury. War doesn't always accomodate our desires.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    If Fallujah was a staging point for the insurgents, we should have deployed sufficient numbers of troops, armour, mines, and barb wire etc. to completely surround that city. Multiple entry and exit points would have been established where every vehicle and pedestrian coming or going could be checked for arms -– and with individuals against a most wanted list.
    This still does not guarantee that people can't get in or out.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Our troops defeated the Iraq army, defeated the insurgents in Fallujah, and will certainly prevail in every fight they’ll have in Iraq.
    Agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    In Viet Nam we also won every tactical engagement -- but we were still in the end, defeated. (BTW, I may be going there in a couple of weeks).

    That's why its so criminal that more has not been learnt from both 9/11 and Iraq.

    When a government is controlled by a single group -- and that group is responsible both for the failures and a rigorous investigation of them -- you cannot expect a truly serious examination of what’s gone wrong.
    Controlled by a single group? Who signs the bills for funding this war? How come you don't hold any of the Senators or Representatives responsible for signing the 'check' for this war?
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    When someone (cough- junior -cough) tells you that its not important to focus on the past, that we should instead look to the future, everyone's bullsht klaxon should start to wail.
    Agreed. Let me know who in the Senate/House is jumping up and down?
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Anything less than an investigation conducted by an adversarial panel with unlimited subpoena power is likely be some kind of white wash.
    Lives are invested in the experience gained during failure -- the living should honor those that sacrificed themselves by learning from that knowledge.
    Even if we don't learn, it doesnt take away from that sacrifice.
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  19. Biggles's Avatar
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    #19  
    junior going to the UN under the duress of Tony Blair to seek a UN mandate.
    He still went (even when he didnt need to...that counts for something.)
    It counts for nothing. You think he went 'under the duress of' his poodle (just about the only person in the UK who supported him - I can tell you that the rest were wholeheartedly with the French)? He went only in the hope that his war crime might gain international approval. And failed abysmally.


    insincerely consenting to the last minute intense WMD inspection that Saddam had finally agreed to
    Not like they were doing any good?
    On the contrary. They were doing the job perfectly. That was Junior's problem; he was hoping for a carte blanche but the weapons inspectors refused to lie for him.
  20.    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by Biggles
    It counts for nothing. You think he went 'under the duress of' his poodle (just about the only person in the UK who supported him - I can tell you that the rest were wholeheartedly with the French)? He went only in the hope that his war crime might gain international approval. And failed abysmally.


    On the contrary. They were doing the job perfectly. That was Junior's problem; he was hoping for a carte blanche but the weapons inspectors refused to lie for him.

    I've never really understood that poodle. He was a genuine FOB (friend of Bill), and he didn't truly believe in the war.

    He joined because he thought that junior was going to go in no matter what, and that the british needed to be there for him --

    (BTW -- glad to have you join us here on our little beseiged hill in OT)
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/13/2005 at 02:31 PM.
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