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  1. #21  
    I don't quite understand....

    One side you say you are upset because civilians are killed (as we all are), but yet you don't express any concern that the terrorists are using elementary schools, hospitals, civilian homes, etc... as bases of operation purposely using the civilians as human shields.

    You seem to give the impression that we do not have any regard for civilian life, yet when we attack the city that the terrorists have set up as one of the main bases of operation, we give a warning for all civilians to leave....at the risk of giving the terrorists a chance to escape. This one HUGE reason why we face so many challenges in this unique war. If we did not have any regard for innocent civilians, the terrorist would have been eliminated a long time ago. The military from day one has made every possible effort to respect and preserve civilian lives. I would even feel safe in saying the most excessive steps in history towards the goal of limiting civilian causalities have been taken in Iraqi operation. Yet you do not express the same level of your outrage of full intent of the terrorists purposely targeting civilians and killing on a daily basis.

    Is the military just as evil as the terrorist for trying to remove terrorists who are targeting and killing civilians who have integrated themselves into the civilian infrastructure while taking every step possible to limit and hopefully eliminate any civilian causalities from these efforts? Or is it more honorable to leave the terrorists within the infrastructure to continue kill the civilians and undermine the new democratic gov that is now being established?
  2.    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I don't quite understand....

    One side you say you are upset because civilians are killed (as we all are), but yet you don't express any concern that the terrorists are using elementary schools, hospitals, civilian homes, etc... as bases of operation purposely using the civilians as human shields.

    You seem to give the impression that we do not have any regard for civilian life, yet when we attack the city that the terrorists have set up as one of the main bases of operation, we give a warning for all civilians to leave....at the risk of giving the terrorists a chance to escape. This one HUGE reason why we face so many challenges in this unique war. If we did not have any regard for innocent civilians, the terrorist would have been eliminated a long time ago. The military from day one has made every possible effort to respect and preserve civilian lives. I would even feel safe in saying the most excessive steps in history towards the goal of limiting civilian causalities have been taken in Iraqi operation. Yet you do not express the same level of your outrage of full intent of the terrorists purposely targeting civilians and killing on a daily basis.

    Is the military just as evil as the terrorist for trying to remove terrorists who are targeting and killing civilians who have integrated themselves into the civilian infrastructure while taking every step possible to limit and hopefully eliminate any civilian causalities from these efforts? Or is it more honorable to leave the terrorists within the infrastructure to continue kill the civilians and undermine the new democratic gov that is now being established?

    Hobbes -- when a war is lead by men who craftily skirted (!) serving themselves, its understandable that they never learned any lessons from that experience.

    Wars are not won tactically -- especially wars fought by superpowers in foreign lands against flees.

    The objective of a guerrilla army is always to motivate the population to hate the powerful invader. They want to overcome most peoples native inertia and apathy, and transform them into at the least their allies, and at best their suicide bombers.

    junior sacrificed other peoples children in furtherance of his "bring it on" swagger.

    You don't fight the fight that your enemy seeks. You don't directly engage in urban war against a population that looks the same as the guerrillas, talks the same, and already is suspicious of you.

    His ignorance will cost us for generations.

    (btw -- read this article by conservative military theorist Bill Lind, Hart's former military aid -- about the Spanish war against the Dutch 450 yrs ago.)
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  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Hobbes -- when a war is lead by men who craftily skirted (!) serving themselves, its understandable that they never learned any lessons from that experience.
    You make it sound like Pres. Bush is making all the tactical decisions in this war. Is that what you believe

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Wars are not won tactically -- especially wars fought by superpowers in foreign lands against flees.
    I understand that the U.S. is a superpower but you aren't saying that the terrorists are superpowers are you? I do believe that wars like this one are won tactically but on a much smaller scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    The objective of a guerrilla army is always to motivate the population to hate the powerful invader. They want to overcome most peoples native inertia and apathy, and transform them into at the least their allies, and at best their suicide bombers.
    While this is a great goal and worthy of our focus, it seems to me that our number one priority should be to find and kill as many terrorists that we can. Winning the hearts and minds may not be possible because of the politics and religion (the simple fact that we are viewed by some as invaders v. liberators impedes us).

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    junior sacrificed other peoples children in furtherance of his "bring it on" swagger.
    This is just too simplistic . We didn't ask for 9/11 (arguably we didnt do enough to prevent it) but a military response was necessitated by the actions of others...we didn't go looking for a fight, the fight came to us .

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    You don't fight the fight that your enemy seeks. You don't directly engage in urban war against a population that looks the same as the guerrillas, talks the same, and already is suspicious of you.
    In a perfect world, I agree. However, your quote should really be that you try to avoid fighting the fight your enemy seeks. There are times when you have to engage the enemy on less than favorable terms. If you required that we never fight the enemy on his terms, there would be times where we could not respond. You don't want to put yourself in the position of being controlled by your enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    His ignorance will cost us for generations.
    Some say ignorance, others say committment (appears to coincide with what party you favor).

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    (btw -- read this article by conservative military theorist Bill Lind, Hart's former military aid -- about the Spanish war against the Dutch 450 yrs ago.)
    I will try to give this a read tonight.
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  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    You make it sound like Pres. Bush is making all the tactical decisions in this war. Is that what you believe
    junior, together with the neo conmen, and his yes men staffers have exerted unbelievable influence on the professional military and professional intelligence service.


    Not just by direct command --- but by indirect means such as selective promotion, transfer, and retirement. Careerist desk jockeys don't need too much of a hint to know what answers to give.


    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    While this is a great goal and worthy of our focus, it seems to me that our number one priority should be to find and kill as many terrorists that we can. Winning the hearts and minds may not be possible because of the politics and religion (the simple fact that we are viewed by some as invaders v. liberators impedes us).
    The elephant can never kill enough of the flees to make a difference. If you play that game the flees will always mulitply faster than they can be rid.

    The solution is to focus on the conditions that create the eggs


    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    This is just too simplistic . We didn't ask for 9/11 (arguably we didnt do enough to prevent it) but a military response was necessitated by the actions of others...we didn't go looking for a fight, the fight came to us .
    How many times must it be repeated ????!!!

    Iraq had NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to do with 9/11.

    (Saudi Arabia is the zip code you're looking for.)


    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    In a perfect world, I agree. However, your quote should really be that you try to avoid fighting the fight your enemy seeks. There are times when you have to engage the enemy on less than favorable terms. If you required that we never fight the enemy on his terms, there would be times where we could not respond. You don't want to put yourself in the position of being controlled by your enemy.
    Iraq AND Fallujuh were not unavoidable fights.


    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Some say ignorance, others say committment (appears to coincide with what party you favor).
    except for Rove's office of propaganda and misinformation, this has been the most ignorant and malevolent cabal ever to control this country.

    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I will try to give this a read tonight.
    until I wrote that stuff to 1911 about the Marines and Gary Hart, I had lost track of Lind.

    Though we probably disagree on most things non-military, he's a much smarter guy than me --
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  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Careerist desk jockeys don't need too much of a hint to know what answers to give.
    This line makes it seem like military leaders sell out to bureaucrats...maybe they do some of the time, but not wholeheartedly. To say otherwise is very unfair.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    The elephant can never kill enough of the flees to make a difference. If you play that game the flees will always mulitply faster than they can be rid.
    So we shouldnt try because it might be an unwinnable situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    The solution is to focus on the conditions that create the eggs
    Arguably we cant change those conditions. I think it's better we fight them over there and abroad then over here in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    How many times must it be repeated ????!!!

    Iraq had NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to do with 9/11.
    I think I have heard this before and I agree to a point...but I do believe there were terrorists in Iraq and Sadaam provided a safe-haven (at a minimum it was the "I'll close my eyes and claim ignorance" line.)

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Iraq AND Fallujuh were not unavoidable fights.
    Maybe not.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    except for Rove's office of propaganda and misinformation, this has been the most ignorant and malevolent cabal ever to control this country.
    How can you quantify it in this manner? Circumstances are not the same as they were 4-8-12-20 years ago. To compare this administration with another administration without acknowledging that is not very fair.
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  6. cardio's Avatar
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    #26  
    Here is the first part and end of a long e-mail from a retired grunt Marine who has a son (grunt Marine) home on leave. The middle is mainly a report on individual weapons and tactics (too long to post)

    ...will be returning to Iraq for a second tour
    in early '06 and has already re-enlisted early for 4 more years. He loves
    the Marine Corps and is actually looking forward to returning to Iraq.


    Jordan spent 7 months at "Camp Blue Diamond" in Ramadi. Aka: Fort Apache.


    He saw and did a lot and the following is what he told me about weapons,
    equipment, tactics and other miscellaneous info which may be of interest to
    you. Nothing is by any means classified. No politics here, just a Marine
    with a bird's eye view's opinions:


    The insurgent tactic most frustrating is their use of civilian
    non-combatants as cover. They know we do all we can to avoid civilian
    casualties and therefore schools, hospitals and (especially) Mosques are
    locations where they meet, stage for attacks, cache weapons and ammo and
    flee to when engaged. They have absolutely no regard whatsoever for
    civilian casualties. They will terrorize locals and murder without
    hesitation anyone believed to be sympathetic to the Americans or the new
    Iraqi govt. Kidnapping of family members (especially children) is common
    to influence people they are trying to influence but cant reach, such as
    local govt. officials, clerics, tribal leaders, etc.).

    The first thing our guys are told is "don't get captured". They know that
    if captured they will be tortured and beheaded on the internet. Zarqawi
    openly offers bounties for anyone who brings him a live American
    serviceman. This motivates the criminal element who otherwise don't give a
    **** about the war. A lot of the beheading victims were actually kidnapped
    by common criminals and sold to Zarqawi. As such, for our guys, every
    fight is to the death. Surrender is not an option.

    The Iraqi's are a mixed bag. Some fight well, others aren't worth a ****.
    Most do okay with American support. Finding leaders is hard, but they are
    getting better. It is widely viewed that Zarqawi's use of suicide bombers,
    en masse, against the civilian population was a serious tactical mistake.
    Many Iraqi's were galvanized and the caliber of recruits in the Army and
    the police forces went up, along with their motivation. It also led to an
    exponential increase in good intel because the Iraqi's are sick of the
    insurgent attacks against civilians. The Kurds are solidly pro-American
    and fearless fighters.

    According to Jordan, morale among our guys is very high. They not only
    believe they are winning, but that they are winning decisively. They are
    stunned and dismayed by what they see in the American press, whom they
    almost universally view as against them. The embedded reporters are
    despised and distrusted. They are inflicting casualties at a rate of 20-1
    and then see **** like "Are we losing in Iraq" on TV and the print media.

    For the most part, they are satisfied with their equipment, food and
    leadership. Bottom line though, and they all say this, there are not
    enough guys there to drive the final stake through the heart of the
    insurgency, primarily because there aren't enough troops in-theater to shut
    down the borders with Iran and Syria. The Iranians and the Syrians just
    can't stand the thought of Iraq being an American ally (with, of course,
    permanent US bases there)
  7.    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    ...The insurgent tactic most frustrating is their use of civilian non-combatants as cover. They know we do all we can to avoid civilian casualties and therefore schools, hospitals and (especially) Mosques are locations where they meet, stage for attacks, cache weapons and ammo and flee to when engaged. They have absolutely no regard whatsoever for civilian casualties...
    that is the game that asymmetrical warfare entails -- getting the civilian population to become angry at the elephant and sympathetic to the flee.

    The elephant accepts those terms of battle at its peril.

    The clusters of buddies chasing through neighborhoods while their friends are dying because of snipers hiding in civilian homes are not to blame for the mistakes in places like Fallujah.

    The grunts on the ground are tasked with achieving their specific objectives with the minimum of loss.

    If White Phosphorous is a tool that works -- they are going to ask for it.

    Images of chilren maimed and disfigured by white phosphorous were watched on arab TVs (and that are seen in that Italian documentary -- Fallujah: The Hidden Massacre -- that I referenced several days ago) were even more devastating than images of the battle itself.

    The Marines did not want to get into the muck and have a knife fight in Fallujah. If Fallujah was a problem it should have been handled as a constrictive siege. It was the strategic geniuses in Washington who ordered that battle -- and it contributed significantly to the making of Iraq into a festering sore its become.


    US defends use of white phosphorus
    By Will Dunham (Reuters)
    November, 16 2005

    The Pentagon on Wednesday acknowledged using incendiary white-phosphorus munitions in a 2004 counterinsurgency offensive in the Iraqi city of Falluja, but defended their use as legal.

    Army Lt. Col. Barry Venable, a Pentagon spokesman, said the U.S. military had not used the highly flammable weapons against civilians, contrary to an Italian state television report this month which said the weapons were used against men, women and children in Falluja who were burned to the bone.

    "We categorically deny that claim," Venable said.

    "It's part of our conventional-weapons inventory and we use it like we use any other conventional weapon," added Bryan Whitman, another Pentagon spokesman.

    Venable said white phosphorus is not outlawed or banned by any convention. However, a protocol to the 1980 Convention on Conventional Weapons forbids using incendiary weapons against civilians or against military targets amid concentrations of civilians.

    The United States did not sign the protocol...

    U.S. forces used the white phosphorus during a major offensive launched by Marines in Falluja, about 30 miles (50 km) west of Baghdad, to flush out insurgents. The battle in November of last year involved some of the toughest urban fighting of the 2-1/2-year war.

    Venable said that in the Falluja battle, "U.S. forces used white phosphorous both in its classic screening mechanism and ... when they encountered insurgents who were in foxholes and other covered positions who they could not dislodge any other way."

    He said the soldiers employed what they call a "shake-and-bake" technique of using white phosphorus shells to flush enemies out of hiding then using high explosives to kill them.

    The Italian documentary showed images of bodies recovered after the Falluja offensive, which it said proved the use of white phosphorus against civilians.

    "We don't target any civilians with any of our weapons. And to suggest that U.S. forces were targeting civilians with these weapons would simply be wrong," Whitman said.
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  8. cardio's Avatar
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    #28  
    that is the game that asymmetrical warfare entails -- getting the civilian population to become angry at the elephant and sympathetic to the flee.
    You must have missed this part

    It is widely viewed that Zarqawi's use of suicide bombers,
    en masse, against the civilian population was a serious tactical mistake.
    Many Iraqi's were galvanized and the caliber of recruits in the Army and
    the police forces went up, along with their motivation. It also led to an
    exponential increase in good intel because the Iraqi's are sick of the
    insurgent attacks against civilians.
  9. #29  
    Wow - what a video. Thanks for the link.

    God bless our boys (and gals)!
    -jeff

    ...the Truth will set you free!
  10.    #30  
    NBC News tonight did a (2.5 min.) report on the offensive use of White Phosphorus in Fallujah -- the first by a major network newscast.

    Though this story is getting some modest converage here -- in europe, in Iraq and in the arab countries its been much more important.

    It has served to reenforce and illustrate the arab perception that we are savages without mercy.
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  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    It has served to reenforce and illustrate the arab perception that we are savages without mercy.
    Perception may be a reality we have to deal with or die because of.....but it does not make it true.

    This why political statements and biased attacks for personal (or party) gain with little or no founding agianst the USA hold a tremendous amount of personal accountability for those making them....and yes this is addressed at both Reps and lately especially certain Dems.

    Just common words or wisdom to be applied to any given situation, especially in our post 9/11 world.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    NBC News tonight did a (2.5 min.) report on the offensive use of White Phosphorus in Fallujah -- the first by a major network newscast.

    Though this story is getting some modest converage here -- in europe, in Iraq and in the arab countries its been much more important.

    It has served to reenforce and illustrate the arab perception that we are savages without mercy.
    Savages without mercy that went to Somalia and the Balkans to save Muslims. And what about our perception that Arab Muslims are bent on worldwide Jihad and the slaughter of innocents to advance their religion?

    I was wondering when the barking moonbat theory of "white phosphorous=chemical weapons" would reach this forum. Tell me, if WP is a chemical weapon because it burns, are high explosives chemical weapons because they explode?

    Also, I've seen footage of the "Fallujah burn victims". They were in fact blackened...but strangely enough their clothes were intact. Makes me wonder if those Italian journalists had ever seen a body that had been left in sun for a week or so. Here's a hint....WP burns at over 2400 degrees. I'm not for sure, but I bet cotton material catches fire at a significantly cooler temperature.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    NBC News tonight did a (2.5 min.) report on the offensive use of White Phosphorus in Fallujah -- the first by a major network newscast.

    Though this story is getting some modest converage here -- in europe, in Iraq and in the arab countries its been much more important.

    It has served to reenforce and illustrate the arab perception that we are savages without mercy.
    Actually this is the first I've heard of this..

    (I knew of the type of ammo from FPS games but had not heard about hem being used in Iraq..
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  14.    #34  
    Compounding the damage already done to america's reputation in the arab and european worlds by the ghastly images of civilains maimed by the fighting in Fallujah, the pentagon initially denied ever using White Phosphorus as a weapon.

    After describing white phosphorus being used only for illumination, the pentagon later admitted that it was being less than entirely truthful -- that the white phosforus had also been used directly against insurgents because of its effectiveness.

    Defense of Phosphorus Use Turns Into Damage Control

    By SCOTT SHANE NY Times
    November 21, 2005

    WASHINGTON, Nov. 20 - On Nov. 8, Italian public television showed a documentary renewing persistent charges that the United States had used white phosphorus rounds, incendiary munitions that the film incorrectly called chemical weapons, against Iraqis in Falluja last year. Many civilians died of burns, the report said.

    The half-hour film was riddled with errors and exaggerations, according to United States officials and independent military experts. But the State Department and Pentagon have so bungled their response - making and then withdrawing incorrect statements about what American troops really did when they fought a pitched battle against insurgents in the rebellious city - that the charges have produced dozens of stories in the foreign news media and on Web sites suggesting that the Americans used banned weapons and tried to cover it up...

    "It's discredited the American military without any basis in fact," said John E. Pike, an expert on weapons who runs GlobalSecurity.org, an independent clearinghouse for military information. He said the "stupidity and incompetence" of official comments had fueled suspicions of a cover-up.

    "The story most people around the world have is that the Americans are up to their old tricks - committing atrocities and lying about it," Mr. Pike said. "And that's completely incorrect."...

    "There are legitimate questions that need to be asked," Mr. Kimball said. Given the history of Saddam Hussein's use of chemical weapons in Iraq, he said, "we have to be extremely careful" to comply with treaties and the rules of war.

    At a time when opposition to the war is growing, the white phosphorus issue has reinforced the worst suspicions about American actions...

    Officials now acknowledge that the government's initial response was sluggish and misinformed.

    "There's so much inaccurate information out there now that I'm not sure we can unscrew it," Lt. Col. Barry Venable, a Defense Department spokesman who has handled many inquiries about white phosphorus, said Friday.

    The State Department declined to comment for the record, but an official there said privately that the episode was a public relations failure.

    The Italian documentary, titled "Falluja: The Hidden Massacre," included gruesome images of victims of the fierce fighting in the city in November 2004. American and Iraqi troops recaptured the city from insurgents, in battles that destroyed an estimated 60 percent of the buildings.

    Opening with prolonged shots of Vietnamese children and villages burned by American use of napalm in 1972, the film suggested an equivalence between Mr. Hussein's use of chemical weapons in the 1980's and the use of white phosphorus by the American-led forces...

    The film showed disfigured bodies and suggested that hot-burning white phosphorus had melted the flesh while leaving clothing intact. Sigfrido Ranucci, the television correspondent who made the documentary, said in an interview this month that he had received the photographs from an Iraqi doctor. "We are not talking about corpses like the normal deaths in war," he said.

    Military veterans familiar with white phosphorus, known to soldiers as "W. P." or "Willie Pete," said it could deliver terrible burns, since an exploding round scatters bits of the compound that burst into flames on exposure to air and can burn into flesh, penetrating to the bone.

    But they said white phosphorus would have burned victims' clothing. The bodies in the film appeared to be decomposed, they said.

    In their first comments after the Nov. 8 broadcast, American officials made some of those points. But they relied on an inaccurate State Department fact sheet first posted on the Web last December, when similar accusations first surfaced.

    The fact sheet said American forces had used white phosphorus shells "very sparingly in Falluja, for illumination purposes, and were fired "to illuminate enemy positions at night, not at enemy fighters."

    The Americans stuck to that position last spring after Iraq's Health Ministry claimed it had proof of civilian casualties from the weapons.

    After the Italian documentary was broadcast, the American ambassadors to Italy, Ronald P. Spogli, and to Britain, Robert H. Tuttle, echoed the stock defense, denying that white phosphorus munitions had been used against enemy fighters, let alone civilians. At home, on the public radio program "Democracy Now," Lt. Col. Steve Boylan, an American military spokesman, said, "I know of no cases where people were deliberately targeted by the use of white phosphorus."

    But those statements were incorrect. Firsthand accounts by American officers in two military journals note that white phosphorus munitions had been aimed directly at insurgents in Falluja to flush them out.
    War critics and journalists soon discovered those articles.

    In the face of such evidence, the Bush administration made an embarrassing public reversal last week. Pentagon spokesmen admitted that white phosphorus had been used directly against Iraqi insurgents. "It's perfectly legitimate to use this stuff against enemy combatants," Colonel Venable said Friday.

    While he said he could not rule out that white phosphorus hit some civilians, "U.S. and coalition forces took extraordinary measures to prevent civilian casualties in Falluja."
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  15. #35  
    OK...so we can't use cluster bombs, we can't use depleted uranium and we can't use white phosphorous. It isn't fair that we have night vision, and we should turn off our satellites, too. Oh, and we should ground our airplanes.

    More leftist silliness.

    Barye...here's a question. Why should we give a fig what the Jihadi's and those in Europe who are bent upon seeing us defeated think?
    Last edited by 1911sforever; 11/21/2005 at 10:11 AM.
  16.    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    OK...so we can't use cluster bombs, we can't use depleted uranium and we can't use white phosphorous. It isn't fair that we have night vision, and we should turn off our satellites, too. Oh, and we should ground our airplanes.

    More leftist silliness.

    Barye...here's a question. Why should we give a fig what the Jihadi's and those in Europe who are bent upon seeing us defeated think?
    the guys in the unarmoured HMVs, in the alleyways, and on the ground think about tactics -- about survival. Tactics are what the people at the pointy end of the spear worry about.

    Strategy is what the "smart" people riding in armoured Limo's are supposed to be thinking about.

    A counterinsurgency war is not about tactics -- its about understanding objectives and knowing what helps or hurts in achieving them.

    Using tactics that are temporarily effective while alienating the population who are the "target audience" is bush league brilliance.

    Torture, white phosphorus, and unilateral war may in the short term seem effective at delivering results but only an arrogant and ignorant A$$ would persist in using them.
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  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE

    How many times must it be repeated ????!!!

    Iraq had NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to do with 9/11.

    (Saudi Arabia is the zip code you're looking for.)
    --
    Why is it that dems cling to this statement as if it single handedly wins the argument, but the same concept is incomprehendable when it comes to gun control?
  18.    #38  
    While directly in the line of fire she continued to shoot her own video and talk to the camera -- as bullets bounce all round

    amazing stuff -- look closely for her as seen from the second camera
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