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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    if they want us to leave their homelands alone and cut off all contact with us, LETS OBLIGE!!! Seriously.
    Interestingly, that's precisely what Osama Bin Laden wanted the US to do. He demanded the Saudi Royals to kick the Americans out of the sacred land of Mecca and Medina after the war in Kuwait. When neither the Saudis nor the US complied, he started the attacks on the US.

    If you would not protect your interests in oil in the Middle East with military force, there would not have been a 9/11. I am not saying the military presence of the US was a valid reason for Bin Laden's crazy and cruel attacks, but the Middle East countries didn't exactly ASK the US to stay in the region, with the exception of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, or at least the dictatorial regimes there.

    There are too many $ involved for the US to leave the region, that's a fact.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    Genocide involving massacre of thousands of people? Hey! Tough sh:t. Deal with it. They deserve help from no one.
    Help? Do you mean Saddam's genocide of the Kurds using nerve gas, or his attack on Iran with hundreds of thousands of deads? That was both done with the support of the US (and other Western countries). He had help before, during and after his massacre on the Kurds and on Iranians. Only when he occupied Kuwait, another important source of oil, there was a change of mind. So "help" depends on which side you are on.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Victor Davis Hanson in the National Review

    http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson...0511040840.asp

    A fantastic column with far too much to fairly excerpt here. Read it.
    Yet the antidote for radical Islam, aside from the promotion of democratization and open economies, is simple. It must be militarily defeated when it emerges to wage organized violence, as in the cases of the Taliban and al Qaeda in Afghanistan, Zarqawi’s terrorists in Iraq, and the various killer cliques in Palestine.
    Full of misconceptions. Fascist countries of the past had a territory and an army. You could attack them on their territory and overcome them by defeating their army. Islamistic terrorism is totally different: it is a diffuse movement, an ideology, a belief system working in the underground of many societies - not an enemy you can fight with an army, apart from exceptions such as Taliban Afghanistan (ruled by a "Fascist" government) - a war nobody found unwise.

    Iraq is a great example of where the misconception above will lead you in the "war" on terror: Attacking and occupying Iraq actually gave rise to Islamistic terrorism in that country - it wasn't there before the attack, only the occupation made it possible. Indeed a tremendous strategic stupidity in the war on terror...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Full of misconceptions. Fascist countries of the past had a territory and an army. You could attack them on their territory and overcome them by defeating their army. Islamistic terrorism is totally different: it is a diffuse movement, an ideology, a belief system working in the underground of many societies - not an enemy you can fight with an army, apart from exceptions such as Taliban Afghanistan (ruled by a "Fascist" government) - a war nobody found unwise.

    Iraq is a great example of where the misconception above will lead you in the "war" on terror: Attacking and occupying Iraq actually gave rise to Islamistic terrorism in that country - it wasn't there before the attack, only the occupation made it possible. Indeed a tremendous strategic stupidity in the war on terror...
    You've completely missed his point - even though the fascist movements of the past had territory and armies, they shared in common a malignant ideology - an ideology that had to be defeated. Islamic fundementalism is a trans-national ideology. It must not be allowed to gain a foothold (Afghanistan) or be allowed to receive support from nation-states (hence Iraq) lest we end up back in 1939, only now with WMD and people willing to use them.

    Actually creating an insurgency in Iraq that draws jihadists from throughout the Muslim world to the U.S. military was a (unintentional, to be sure) stroke of genius. As you say, this form of fascism is difficult to fight militarily - unless one could draw the enemy together where they can be brought to battle. This is happening as we speak.
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  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ...There are too many $ involved for the US to leave the region, that's a fact.
    Precisely!
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    You've completely missed his point - even though the fascist movements of the past had territory and armies, they shared in common a malignant ideology - an ideology that had to be defeated. Islamic fundementalism is a trans-national ideology. It must not be allowed to gain a foothold (Afghanistan) or be allowed to receive support from nation-states (hence Iraq) lest we end up back in 1939, only now with WMD and people willing to use them..
    Funny how the muslims claim that the christians have a malignant ideology... (one that is trying to wipe out islam)

    It is all in the eye of the beholder...
    Try looking at it from the other side once.. you'l see that both parties are pretty much the same.. both fighting for their ideology both killing innocent people in the process...

    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Actually creating an insurgency in Iraq that draws jihadists from throughout the Muslim world to the U.S. military was a (unintentional, to be sure) stroke of genius. As you say, this form of fascism is difficult to fight militarily - unless one could draw the enemy together where they can be brought to battle. This is happening as we speak.
    Are you referring to Iraq or to the 'war on terror in general?
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  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Funny how the muslims claim that the christians have a malignant ideology... (one that is trying to wipe out islam)

    It is all in the eye of the beholder...
    Try looking at it from the other side once.. you'l see that both parties are pretty much the same.. both fighting for their ideology both killing innocent people in the process...
    Only if you have an absolutely twisted or absent sense of morality. The equivalence you are suggesting is revolting. Most Muslims agree that the jihadist ideology is evil. Apparently you feel we are the same as the jihadists. Please tell me I've misunderstood you.
    Are you referring to Iraq or to the 'war on terror in general?
    Iraq.
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  8. cardio's Avatar
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    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Funny how the muslims claim that the christians have a malignant ideology... (one that is trying to wipe out islam)

    It is all in the eye of the beholder...
    Try looking at it from the other side once.. you'l see that both parties are pretty much the same.. both fighting for their ideology both killing innocent people in the process...


    Are you referring to Iraq or to the 'war on terror in general?
    I can't believe you are saying the muslims and the christians are pretty much the same. When was the last time a group that claim Chritianity as their way of life acted as a suicide bomber in a crowded market, or drove a vehicle laden with explosives into a building, or ran around a country which they live in as guests and torched everything insight? Where are the Christian terrorist training camps located?
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    #29  
    "Does Russia have that type of oil supply? I am not sure. (And that still doesnt get us to the goal of oil independence, it just addresses the short term problem of getting off Middle Eastern oil.)"


    - t2gungho


    the point IS that we break free of middle east oil if the supply in russia is large enough to make that possible. we become independent AFTER alternative fuel sources are fully developed.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    the point IS that we break free of middle east oil if the supply in russia is large enough to make that possible. we become independent AFTER alternative fuel sources are fully developed.
    Yo, VW...there's a nifty little "quote" button. It makes it much easier for you (and easier for us to read) if you use it.
  11.    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Try looking at it from the other side once.. you'l see that both parties are pretty much the same.. both fighting for their ideology both killing innocent people in the process...
    The muslim idiots in France are purposely starting fires of property owned by innocent people. Allies in Iraq blow up things where terrorists are hiding and planning to kill innocent people. Innocent people are killed, but not on purpose. It certainly is a fraction of the number the muslims are killing in Iraq.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I can't believe you are saying the muslims and the christians are pretty much the same. When was the last time a group that claim Chritianity as their way of life acted as a suicide bomber in a crowded market, or drove a vehicle laden with explosives into a building, or ran around a country which they live in as guests and torched everything insight? Where are the Christian terrorist training camps located?
    Not that I agree that Christians and Muslims can be painted with the same brush, but there are "Christian" terrorists. Ministers who camp outside abortion clinics with sniper rifles are terrorists and are not doing the work of God, just as Muslims who walk into markets in Jerusalem with bomb vests are not doing the work of Allah.

    The IRA is made up of Christian terrorists. Hitler was a very religious man. The Inquisition was terrorism at its finest. I'd even argue that boy-abusing Catholic priests are terrorists. I'm a Christian, but let's not pretend that this doesn't go on on the other side of the fence as well.
    I'm back!
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Only if you have an absolutely twisted or absent sense of morality. The equivalence you are suggesting is revolting. Most Muslims agree that the jihadist ideology is evil. Apparently you feel we are the same as the jihadists. Please tell me I've misunderstood you.
    I'm not saying you are the same as jihadists, at least the US military tries not to hit civilians, but it does happen (collateral dammage?)
    That is a big difference.
    But if you look at it from the big picture it is 2 groups of people using violence in order to enforce their ideology on other people...
    IMHO that is a wrong thing.

    Whether each ideology is wrong or right is a matter of interpretation and largely cultural based.

    Iraq is not about saving the iraqui's from saddam, if you believe that you have been watching fox too long. it is a nice side-effect but not the aim of the game.
    It isnt to save the US from el Quaida from attacking them, there was no link between el Quaida en Iraq (untill the US invaded and muslim extremists started to use that to enlist people).
    It was all about power and revenge..
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  14. vw2002's Avatar
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    #34  
    "LOL, you know what will happen...they will try to export the car to the US, the major car manufacturers will lobby for high tariffs and then the car will end up costing more than the toyota prius. "

    - t2gungho


    http://www.physorg.com/news7499.html

    "Given the proper investment the company should be able to develop the prototype in about three years. The move to Hydrogen based cars using Engineuity's technology will require only relatively minor changes from the car manufacturer's point of view. Since the modified engine can be produced using existing production lines, removing the need for investment in new infrastructures (the cost of which is estimated at billions of dollars), the new Hydrogen cars would not be more expensive. Although Engineuity's Hydrogen car will not be very different from existing conventional cars, the company is not currently planning an upgrade kit for existing cars but is concentrating on building a system that will be incorporated into new car models.

    Possibly the most appealing aspect of the system is the running cost. According to Yogev, the overall running cost of the system should be equal to that of conventional cars today. Given the expected surge in oil prices in the near future Engineuity's Hydrogen car could not come too soon. "
    Last edited by vw2002; 11/07/2005 at 10:47 AM.
  15. vw2002's Avatar
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    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    Yo, VW...there's a nifty little "quote" button. It makes it much easier for you (and easier for us to read) if you use it.

    i know ricoM. but i had been using the treo until now.
  16. cardio's Avatar
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    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Not that I agree that Christians and Muslims can be painted with the same brush, but there are "Christian" terrorists. Ministers who camp outside abortion clinics with sniper rifles are terrorists and are not doing the work of God, just as Muslims who walk into markets in Jerusalem with bomb vests are not doing the work of Allah.

    The IRA is made up of Christian terrorists. Hitler was a very religious man. The Inquisition was terrorism at its finest. I'd even argue that boy-abusing Catholic priests are terrorists. I'm a Christian, but let's not pretend that this doesn't go on on the other side of the fence as well.
    I agree that anyone who sits outside of an abotion clinic with a sniper rifle is a terrorist (was this recent, I missed it). I do not classify Hitler as a terrorist anymore than Napolean or Alexander the Great, they had a desire to rule the world by brute force and did not attempt to hide their desire behind a religous front. Anyone who abuses a child is a criminal, not a terrorist.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Actually creating an insurgency in Iraq that draws jihadists from throughout the Muslim world to the U.S. military was a (unintentional, to be sure) stroke of genius.
    I'm not sure the relatives of the fallen soldiers share your enthusiasm. The war in Iraq also did not save the 200 civilians in Spain from being blown to pieces, and neither the dozens of victims of the London bombings. To the contrary, the war in Iraq has raised the radicalization and facilitated those terrorist acts.
    As you say, this form of fascism is difficult to fight militarily - unless one could draw the enemy together where they can be brought to battle. This is happening as we speak.
    Since the US soldiers have been dying at an increasing rate during the past two years, the numbers of enemies seems to rise faster than you can kill them. Those too young to fight two years ago are ready now, and many more are motivated to attack due to successful bombings in Iraq. As the CIA reported, Iraq is an ideal training ground for urban warfare, and the veterans of the Iraq war will have all the skills needed to kill people in the West, too, such as making home-made bombs, conceal them, remote-detonate them... indeed, the war in Iraq needs a genius of George junior's proportions. Funny though that you applaud him.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I can't believe you are saying the muslims and the christians are pretty much the same. When was the last time a group that claim Chritianity as their way of life acted as a suicide bomber in a crowded market, or drove a vehicle laden with explosives into a building, or ran around a country which they live in as guests and torched everything insight? Where are the Christian terrorist training camps located?
    I never claimed they are the same, but I do say there are more similarities than we'd like to admit..

    <edit> reading back I may have worded it a bit strongly..
    My point is that if you don't look at it from the other side you will never find a sollution, just an escalation..
    I learned this myself in speakers corner on hyde park where I was discussing with a radical muslim. We both didnt really listen to each others argument so the discussion lead nowhere..
    (for the record I was attacking him with the insaneness of these terrorist attacks)
    Last edited by ToolkiT; 11/07/2005 at 11:03 AM.
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  19. vw2002's Avatar
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    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Interestingly, that's precisely what Osama Bin Laden wanted the US to do. He demanded the Saudi Royals to kick the Americans out of the sacred land of Mecca and Medina after the war in Kuwait. When neither the Saudis nor the US complied, he started the attacks on the US.

    If you would not protect your interests in oil in the Middle East with military force, there would not have been a 9/11. I am not saying the military presence of the US was a valid reason for Bin Laden's crazy and cruel attacks, but the Middle East countries didn't exactly ASK the US to stay in the region, with the exception of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, or at least the dictatorial regimes there.

    There are too many $ involved for the US to leave the region, that's a fact.

    true, there is a lot of $ involved, but still i think it would be in our best interests to try to leave that region though. if wars and jihads are forever going to be be waged against those interests, then why continue to throw the $ gained from those interests into an unending war? its ridiculous
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ....Since the US soldiers have been dying at an increasing rate during the past two years, the numbers of enemies seems to rise faster than you can kill them. ...
    How many of the enemies have died during that same period?
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