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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    If they exist or who leaked them?
    If they exist, who authorized them?
  2. #82  
    All good questions, IMHO.
  3. #84  
    Is sleep deprivation torture??
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  4. #85  
    Human Rights Watch only used the prisoners' own statements as a source. If this is as bad as our "torture" gets, I have a hard time seeing what all the fuss is about. The treatment described is not nice, certainly, but it's not exactly electrical current through the genitals, you know?
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    #86  
    My oh my, I just realised my teenagers have been torturing me. How dare them listen to loud music.

    Seriously though, read the article, after listening to loud music, and halloween sounds, deprived of sleep, and restrained (chained up) they were moved to a US prison. If they were moved to a US prison, whose prison were they in to begin with.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
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  6. #87  
    Insertion and I know about sleep deprivation over extended periods.

    It IS tortuous but recoverable.

    Yes, your mind plays tricks on you; you see, hear, and say things that you otherwise wouldn't. It really sucks but it is an effective tool for interrogation.

    I say use it.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  7. #88  
    Here is a response in a thread talking about torture this last week:

    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    Anyone who doesn't believe prisoners have been abused at the hands of U.S. soldiers and CIA agents, in Iraq, Guantanimo, other middle eastern countries, and maybe in Europe, lives in a fantasy world bounded on one side by the White House and on the other by Fox news. Where simple "abuse" ends and torture begins is an argument that could go on forever, but the U.S. has no high moral ground to stand on in this regard.

    For the adminstration to continue to claim that one of the reasons we needed to topple Saddam was because he tortured his people, while we turn our backs on torture by U.S. operatives and our allies, is the height of hypocrisy.

    Supporters of U.S. policy say we need to torture people for intelligence reason. We're fighting to save our way of life, they say. But guess what? That's exactly the reason Saddam tortured prisoners, to gain intelligence that protected his goverment. How are we morally superior? And speaking of Iraqi torture, it seems our fun-loving, democratic Iraqi friends have been torturing THEIR prisoners, too. But since that group of torturers likes us, I guess it's not as bad as when the last Iraqi government did it.
    Here is my realistic "Fantasy World". A realistic view will show obvious major differences between Iraq and USA treatment of detainees.

    WHO ARE THE DETAINEES
    Iraq: Anyone (men, women, children) who had a difference of opinion. Anyone (men, women, children) who was related to anyone with a difference of opinion. Those who voted against Saddam in his "free" elections. Those round up for an example after an assignation attempt, whether involved or not.

    USA: Those who participate in Terrorist activities, including but not limited to targeting civilian targets (shopping malls, public transportation, schools, hospitals, etc...). Those who are actively shooting at or fighting against the coalition armed forces.

    WHAT HAPPENS IF SOMEONE INNOCENT IS ARRESTED
    IRAQ: I don't think this was even a question that crossed Saddam Regime's minds. Just viewed as an added benefit for more terror to maintain control and power.

    USA: Releases them when discovered. (which apparently by the criticisms on this board is a bad then to do when a mistake is found out.)

    TYPE OF TORTURE
    IRAQ: Institutionalized rape of wives and daughters in front of their husbands, sons, dads, etc...by an official in a state sanctioned raper position. Gassed due to political or religious differences in opinion. Kept in bug infested jails with no or limited clothes or shoes for warmth. Teenage girls stripped, tied with legs up, and shown to Iraqi personnel. Mass executions due to the crime of differing opinions.

    USA: Deprive sleep. Loud music. Handling the Koran with the left hand. I am sure isolated cases where extreme measures were taken by CIA, but have not seen any evidence this is common practice. Isolated cases of individuals in the US ranks who did unwarranted acts, such as the dog pile

    ACTIONS ONCE ABUSE IS DISCOVERED
    IRAQ: Nothing. In fact if anything adopted it as good idea to continue, though admittedly I do not have a source on this opinion but I wonder if the evolutionary process of Iraq's institutionalized torture procedures would circumstantially support my theory on this.

    USA: Admitted the wrong doing. Investigated all charges of this nature. Arrest offenders. Bring all offenders to trial and sentenced.

    Again, I am not in anyway saying that in the entire history of the USA, and spanning multiple administrations have not knowingly participated in extreme torture. But I do not think it is a common sanctioned practice. I also do not pretend that there not situations that have gone too far. But again, I also see the US holding itself accountable for abuse discovered. This is a complicated subject that cannot be held to absolutes with exceptions to every point, whether pro or con. It cannot be talked about along party grounds (i.e. only the Bush admin has ever done this).

    Quote:
    We cuddle up to regimes like China, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and others that engage in torture and murder their political opponents, with no apparent qualms. But we draw the line at Saddam.
    There is merit to this statement. Right or wrong, a lot of it is the age old reality of "enemy of our enemy is our friend". I think that is a major factor with Saudi. I do believe there is going to be a time when we are going to have to face Saudi on it's actions of obvious terrorist support. But with Saudi the only major support in the area, I believe the US is picking it's battles and the timing of confronting others. We did the same thing with Saddam against Iran.

    Egypt goes along with my Saudi comments above.

    With China, as I posted in this very thread, we are beginning to draw the lines militarily, economically, and politically.

    Quote:
    Somehow, the idea of sending someone to be tortured in an Egyptian prison, instead of in an Iraqi prision, doesn't seem like progress.
    I don't doubt that we have done this, but most people who quote this are thinking about when England just did this with the subway bomber they had in their custody.

    Quote:
    Even if none of this sways you, we should avoid torture because it doesn't accomplish what we want. It's been demonstrated over and over again that people who are suffering will say whatever their interogator wants in order to make the pain stop. That's why confessions obtained under duress are frequently thrown out of court.
    To a point yes, I and I think most people agree. I say to a point because I do, along with McCain, that there are extreme situations where it is warranted for the sake of thousands or millions of innocent lives. In other words, I do not support snapping a tooth in half to expose the nerves and then hooking it up to an electric generator as common practice. But if we have confirmed intel that AQ placed a nuke already set to detonate within a major US city center and we captured 2nd in command of AQ within the last 30 minutes, then I think extreme measures would be valid, IMHO.

    There is also the definition of Torture. There have been claims that not carrying the Koran with a white glove is classified as torture. Playing loud music is torture. Putting a detainee into a room with 5 people barraging him with questions creates an amount of stress that is classified of torture.

    There is the gray areas of sleep depravation or dunking head in cold water for short periods (seconds) at a time.

    Obvious ones like putting rabid starving rats in a whicker basket and putting it on the head of a detainee. Cutting off the genitals of a male and make him run until he bleeds to death. Breaking bones systematically and as many times per bone as possible...starting with toes and fingers and working up. (all of these I did not make up, but have read about actually happening in other countries such as Iraq, Japan, and Vietnam)

    Quote:
    And the idea that the detainees in Guantanamo still have any usefull information, years after being removed from the action, is ludicrous.
    Really? You do realize that we are in actual reality at WAR......Information could be names of sleeper cells which can be valid for decades. Knowledge of contacts in various countries. Knowledge of structure of organization. It is funny that those who "gave us their word" that they would not return to the terrorist organizations were released, but that didn't get much notice from those who criticize. There are still those who pledge that if released they would find the nearest AQ contact and blow away as many American soldiers and preferably US citizens.

    Quote:
    On a similar note, Bush also said we invaded Iraq because Saddam killed so many Iraqi citizens. But he now says about 30,000 Iraqis have died as a result of the U.S. invasion. Other estimates range as high as 100,000, but what's a factor of 3 amoung friends.
    And I noticed you missed one VITAL fact.....that a HUGE VAST MAJORITY of these innocent casualties are by fellow Arabs attacking civilians. So, if you hold Bush accountable for these numbers, then also hold the insurgents, AQ, and the foreign terrorists more responsible since they have killed most of those you quoted.
  8. #89  

    C.I.A. Employee Fired for Alleged Leak

    The Central Intelligence Agency has dismissed a senior career officer for disclosing classified information to reporters, including material for The Washington Post's Pulitzer Prize-winning articles about the agency's secret prisons overseas for terror suspects, intelligence officials said today.

    The C.I.A. would not identify the leaker, but several government officials said it was Mary O. McCarthy, a veteran intelligence analyst who until 2001 was senior director for intelligence programs at the National Security Council, where she served under Presidents Clinton and Bush.

    FULL STORY: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/21/wa...ge&oref=slogin
  9. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal

    C.I.A. Employee Fired for Alleged Leak
    Also from the article:

    Public records show that Ms. McCarthy contributed $2,000 in 2004 to the presidential campaign of John Kerry, the Democratic candidate.
  10. #91  
    Some of us hold ourselves and those who represent us to higher standards than those of Middle Eastern Dictators Hobbes.
  11. #92  
    Uhm....I agree with that. I am not sure what you are referring to as there are two main issues that have been heavily discussed over that last 90 posts....the debate of the methods of handling captives and the fact that highly sensitive top secret information was leaked to the press.
  12. #93  
    Post #88
  13. #94  
    I thought that was the basic theme of that post. It has happened at times across multi admins, there is no doubt that it does happen, but it is not the common practice with detainees. Even McCain has stated that there are situations that he would approve of to violate his non-torture act (i.e. the example I used of a nuke placed by AQ in Seattle that is set to go off in 30 min).

    I compared the common practices of the US vs a dictatorship like Iraq. And acknowledged that steps of accountability are taken by the US when abuses have been discovered. How many dictators have held investigations of prison abuse or torture (from orders they probably gave themselves) and held those responsible for committing the acts accountable? I don't know of any. If anything they use torture as a tool of control of the people.
  14. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I compared the common practices of the US vs a dictatorship like Iraq.
    That's why many would find the post extreme and offensive Hobbes.
  15. #96  
    So if I understand you right....you think because I compared the following in response to the charge by others that we were no different than a dictator like Saddam, that I was supporting the idea that we were no different than a middle east tryant?:

    WHO ARE THE DETAINEES
    Iraq: Anyone (men, women, children) who had a difference of opinion. Anyone (men, women, children) who was related to anyone with a difference of opinion. Those who voted against Saddam in his "free" elections. Those round up for an example after an assignation attempt, whether involved or not.

    USA: Those who participate in Terrorist activities, including but not limited to targeting civilian targets (shopping malls, public transportation, schools, hospitals, etc...). Those who are actively shooting at or fighting against the coalition armed forces.

    WHAT HAPPENS IF SOMEONE INNOCENT IS ARRESTED
    IRAQ: I don't think this was even a question that crossed Saddam Regime's minds. Just viewed as an added benefit for more terror to maintain control and power.

    USA: Releases them when discovered. (which apparently by the criticisms on this board is a bad then to do when a mistake is found out.)


    TYPE OF TORTURE
    IRAQ: Institutionalized rape of wives and daughters in front of their husbands, sons, dads, etc...by an official in a state sanctioned raper position. Gassed due to political or religious differences in opinion. Kept in bug infested jails with no or limited clothes or shoes for warmth. Teenage girls stripped, tied with legs up, and shown to Iraqi personnel. Mass executions due to the crime of differing opinions.

    USA: Deprive sleep. Loud music. Handling the Koran with the left hand. I am sure isolated cases where extreme measures were taken by CIA, but have not seen any evidence this is common practice. Isolated cases of individuals in the US ranks who did unwarranted acts, such as the dog pile

    ACTIONS ONCE ABUSE IS DISCOVERED
    IRAQ: Nothing. In fact if anything adopted it as good idea to continue, though admittedly I do not have a source on this opinion but I wonder if the evolutionary process of Iraq's institutionalized torture procedures would circumstantially support my theory on this.

    USA: Admitted the wrong doing. Investigated all charges of this nature. Arrest offenders. Bring all offenders to trial and sentenced.

    Again, I am not in anyway saying that in the entire history of the USA, and spanning multiple administrations have not knowingly participated in extreme torture. But I do not think it is a common sanctioned practice. I also do not pretend that there not situations that have gone too far. But again, I also see the US holding itself accountable for abuse discovered.
    This is pointing out that the USA may not be perfect, but it does have a higher standard than the claims that we are only on the level of the standards and practices of a dictator or tyrant.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 04/28/2006 at 05:30 PM.
  16. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    This is pointing out that the USA may not be perfect, but it does have a higher standard than the claims that we are only on the level of the standards and practices of a dictator or tyrant.
    Yahoo! Alerts Yahoo! News - My Alerts - Edit Alert
    Friday, April 28, 2006, 2:15 PM PDT
    WASHINGTON (AP) The Army on Friday charged Lt. Col. Steven L. Jordan, former head of the interrogation center at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, with seven offenses, including cruelty and maltreatment of prisoners.
    That said, every tyrant justifies his abuse on the basis that others do worse. No one is suggesting that the abuses in Abu Ghraib were sanctioned by the American people, though some here seem to endorse them. No one even suggests that they were state policy. However, they were caused in part by the ambiguous messages emanating from the Bush White House. Accountability should not end with a lieutenant colonel.
    Last edited by whmurray; 04/28/2006 at 06:06 PM.
  17. #98  
    Perfect example of:

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Admitted the wrong doing. Investigated all charges of this nature. Arrest offenders. Bring all offenders to trial and sentenced.
  18. cardio's Avatar
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    #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    That said, every tyrant justifies his abuse on the basis that others do worse. No one is suggesting that the abuses in Abu Ghraib were sanctioned by the American people, though some here seem to endorse them. No one even suggests that they were state policy. However, they were caused in part by the ambiguous messages emanating from the Bush White House. Accountability should not end with a lieutenant colonel.

    If your 28 year old son commits armed robbery should you go to jail?
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  19. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    That said, every tyrant justifies his abuse on the basis that others do worse. No one is suggesting that the abuses in Abu Ghraib were sanctioned by the American people, though some here seem to endorse them.
    Do you think I endorse them??????
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