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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtreosexual
    The question still is " What happened to the Original charges"?
    Mr Fitgerald, did not answer the milllion dolar question after 2 years of witch hunting and taxpayers money!!
    And so if there was no crime commited in outing wilson's wife 's identity , than what's the validity of these charges ?
    That goes to show you an start any useless investigation and indicte people fro something else than the original charge.

    Stay away from those lawyers ........
    So...now it's OK to lie to a grand jury?
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  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gamble
    So...now it's OK to lie to a grand jury?

    Absolutely not !!

    They are still charges , innocent until proven guilty.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtreosexual
    That goes to show, you an start any useless investigation and indicte people for something else than the original charge.

    Stay away from those lawyers ........
    First off, even the Reps have said that Fitzgerald has been fair and on the up-and-up. To cast him in any other light isn't really fair.

    Second, Libby would have had nothing to worry about on the 'original charges' if he didnt allegedly decide not to LIE.

    Ask yourself this: "If there was nothing to the original charges, then WHY did Libby allegedly lie?" I think there is your answer. He allegedly lied for a reason...no one wants to be charged with obstruction and perjury.
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  4. #24  
    Let us say there is a murder investigation on a missing person.
    The suspects gets charged with perjury , obstruction and false statements.
    Later on, you find there was no crime commited and the missing person is found alive .
    Will those charges still hold true, and if yes does it make any sense.

    There has to be an original crime for an investigation & charges .
    That is what , I am trying to figure out here .
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtreosexual
    Let us say there is a murder investigation on a missing person.
    The suspects gets charged with perjury , obstruction and false statements.
    Later on, you find there was no crime commited and the missing person is found alive .
    Will those charges still hold true, and if yes does it make any sense.

    There has to be an original crime for an investigation & charges .
    That is what , I am trying to figure out here .
    Why wouldn't those charges of perjury hold true? Perjury is a crime in and of itself. You don't need an original crime to make a perjury case. If you lie under oath, then you have perjured yourself.

    Under your rationale (or what you may be proposing) people could get in front of the grand jury and waste their time for months at a stretch if they knew there was no crime ever committed and then walk away without charges. Now this would be the waste of time that you talked about earlier.

    The point of the G.J. is to find out if a crime has been committed. If from the testimony it looks like there has been, then there is an indictment handed down. It *appears that Libby thought if he could mislead prosecutors on who told whom long enough, the G.J. would run out of time and the whole issue might melt away. Now he might be paying the price for allegedly lying.
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  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtreosexual
    Let us say there is a murder investigation on a missing person.
    The suspects gets charged with perjury , obstruction and false statements.
    Later on, you find there was no crime commited and the missing person is found alive .
    Will those charges still hold true, and if yes does it make any sense.

    There has to be an original crime for an investigation & charges .
    That is what , I am trying to figure out here .

    read the indictment -- listen to Fitzgerald's description (at yesterday's news conference) of the evidence in support of Libbys obstruction of justice and perjury.

    It is startling how brazen Libby was in his lies -- and in his attempting to use others to cover for those lies. Neglecting to destroy his own emails that documented those lies did not help either.

    Any lawyer will tell you to never talk to the police where you are potentially the object of their attention -- you can only get yourself deeper in trouble.

    This is especially true of grand juries.

    Libby thought he was clever enough to lie, subvert the process of investigation and justice -- and get away with it.

    After all, they were successful in lying about why we had to go to war, weren't they ?
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  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Any lawyer will tell you to never talk to the police where you are potentially the object of their attention -- you can only get yourself deeper in trouble.

    This is especially true of grand juries.
    Actually, you're wrong about that - there are no 5th amedment rights in a GJ. You can't just be quiet.
    Libby thought he was clever enough to lie, subvert the process of investigation and justice -- and get away with it.
    Boy when a Repub is in the hopper the presumption of innocence goes right out thw window with you, doesn't it? If he lied to the GJ he should pay - just as Clinton should have.
    After all, they were successful in lying about why we had to go to war, weren't they ?
    If you keep saying this maybe someday it'll be true. I'm still waiting for an example of a lie.
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  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Actually, you're wrong about that - there are no 5th amedment rights in a GJ. You can't just be quiet.Boy when a Repub is in the hopper the presumption of innocence goes right out thw window with you, doesn't it? If he lied to the GJ he should pay - just as Clinton should have.If you keep saying this maybe someday it'll be true. I'm still waiting for an example of a lie.
    fortunately for them (and you) I am not on their jury. (were I a registered DC voter though, I could have been !!)

    I believe you're right about the 5th amendment GJ issue -- but its possible to answer "I do not recall" to every question -- and to then leave the GJ room to consult with your $600/hr consel waiting outside the doors after each question.

    After several weeks of this the grand jurors and the prosecutor might get bored enough to leave you alone ...
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  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I believe you're right about the 5th amendment GJ issue -- but its possible to answer "I do not recall" to every question -- and to then leave the GJ room to consult with your $600/hr consel waiting outside the doors after each question.

    After several weeks of this the grand jurors and the prosecutor might get bored enough to leave you alone ...
    Either way, he shouldn't have lied (if, in fact he did). GJ testimony can't be used at trial, so it's beyond me why someone would lie and risk perjury rather than just taking their chances in front of a jury they for the most part get to pick.
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  10. #30  
    I am watching CNN now and 2 experts are going back and forth on what will happen. What got my attention though was that one expert said that if Libby was found guilty and sentenced that he predicted that Pres. Bush would pardon him right before he left office.
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  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    one expert said that if Libby was found guilty and sentenced that he predicted that Pres. Bush would pardon him right before he left office.
    What's the big deal, didn't Clinton already set the precedent?

    http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pardonchartlst.htm


    .
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    What's the big deal, didn't Clinton already set the precedent?

    http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pardonchartlst.htm


    .
    Was there something in my post that said I agreed or disagreed You seem a little agitated

    I don't necessarily feel good or bad about the pardon power...but it tends to rub me the wrong way if its used to protect yourself (at least the argument could be made).

    And YES, Pres. Clinton's midnight pardon's bothered me.
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  13. #33  
    Oh, no, t2gungho. Sorry, no offense intended in any way.. ..I meant it totally sarcastically towards the subject of the practice of midnight pardons and nothing at you at all. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if that plays out to become a reality. Right or wrong, it is a card that can be played during the last hand of the game.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 10/31/2005 at 12:15 AM.
  14. #34  
    Interesting column, off course a bit biased.
    Just what I have been asking earlier.
    http://www.opinioneditorials.com/gue..._20051031.html
  15. #35  
    I urge all you chicken hawk pansy patriots to try and watch actual CIA colleagues of Ms.Plame talk about what the Rove/Libby/cheney/junior betrayal meant to real secret undercover agents and their real lives. 60 minutes ran a series of long interviews with them tonight.

    That Fitzgerald chose to pursue the simpler to prove and legally more actionable perjury / obstruction of justice case in no way lessens the harm that was done.

    Ms. Plame's retired CIA colleagues chanced exposing themselves in order to discuss her case with 60 minutes. They did this because of the depth of their outrage.

    Ms. Plame was described by those colleagues as what the CIA regards as its most important and most at risk "asset" -- a N.O.C. -- a non-official cover. These are agents whose identities and activities are unprotected by diplomatic immunity. If she had been caught spying her life was entirely at risk.

    And ironically, her specialty was both particularly important and relevant to this administration: she was an undercover expert in WMD investigation.

    That the Rove/Libby/cheney/junior cabal should be so cavalier with putting other brave people's lives in danger should come as no surprise -- it fits a pattern of these heroic chicken hawks from Vietnam until now in Iraq.

    I hope you are all proud being lead by them ...


    The Exposure Of Valerie Plame
    NEW YORK, Oct. 30, 2005

    (CBS) For 18 years as an undercover agent for the CIA, Valerie Plame Wilson kept her occupation and her identity a secret, even to her own friends and family, to avoid compromising her work as a spy.

    When she was exposed two years ago, it led to a federal investigation and raised questions about what would motivate such a betrayal. Would someone in the government go that far, leak her name to the press, in retaliation for her husband’s public criticism of the war in Iraq?

    The special prosecutor in the case, Patrick Fitzgerald, did not answer that question on Friday when he charged the vice president’s Chief of Staff Lewis Libby with lying to the investigators who were trying to find out how it could have happened.

    But 60 Minutes wanted to know how serious was the damage done by the leak.

    The woman at the center isn’t talking. But 60 Minutes Correspondent Ed Bradley did hear from her husband, her friends and fellow agents who knew her work, and helped us understand what happens when an agent for the CIA is exposed.

    “It's a spy agency. And you don't expose people working for a spy agency. And no one knew that she was working for a spy agency until she was exposed,” says Jim Marcinkowski, a deputy city attorney in Royal Oak, Mich. In the late 1980’s, he was a covert CIA agent spying in Central America. Like all recruits, he was sent to the agency’s top-secret training facility in Virginia known simply as “the farm.”

    That’s where he first met a 22-year-old graduate of Penn State University named Valerie. Marcinkowski says he knew her simply as Val P., since recruits went by the initial of their last name. And he says she was a natural.

    “Did all of you have firearms training?” Bradley asked. “Yes,” he replied.

    Marcinkowski says she was good. “Some people had never fired weapons before, and some of us had. And it's always interesting when someone that has never fired a weapon kind of beats everybody else that did.”

    He says the three dozen members of his CIA class were a close-knit group ...

    Two years ago, when columnist Robert Novak put the name “Valerie Plame” into the public debate over the war in Iraq, Marcinkowski says it took him a few weeks to determine that it was “Val P.” who had been compromised. “I found that particularly outrageous. It became very personal.”

    Marcinkowski was so angry, he went public, something former CIA agents rarely do, blaming the White House, even though nobody has been charged with the actual leak.

    “We kept that trust in protecting her identity. So we held a particular trust for 18 years and never gave each other up. And when the White House did that, it was particularly outrageous, because if I have to keep those secrets, they should be held to that same kind of standard,” he explains.

    As the investigation into who leaked her name got underway in Washington, more details about Valerie Plame’s life emerged. She spent her early years in the CIA in Europe, where she received advanced degrees from the London School of Economics and the College of Europe, in Bruges, Belgium.

    In recent years, she told people she worked at an energy consulting firm called “Brewster-Jennings & Associates.”

    Robert Novak, the columnist who first printed her name, revealed that, too. “And she listed herself as an employee of Brewster-Jennings & Associates. There is no such firm, I'm convinced,” Novak said on CNN.

    He was right. Even though the business directory Dun & Bradstreet had a listing for the firm in a Boston office building, Brewster-Jennings & Associates was a CIA fiction, created to provide cover for agents like Valerie Plame.

    The problem, says Marcinkowski, is that exposing Brewster-Jennings could lead foreign intelligence agencies to other spies. “There is a possibility that there were other agents that would use that same kind of a cover. So they may have been using Brewster-Jennings just like her.”

    Valerie Plame was also exposed as a “NOC,” an agent working under non-official cover. That means she wasn’t attached to a U.S. Embassy or any other government agency when she worked overseas, which would have provided her protection if she was caught spying. In other words, she had no diplomatic immunity.

    Working overseas as an NOC, without official cover, was a dangerous assignment, says Marcinkowski. “With diplomatic immunity, the worst that can happen is you get kicked out of the country. You don't have that kind of a protection when you're a NOC. You're out there, what they would call naked.”


    “Out there” like Hugh Redmond, a NOC who was caught spying in Shanghai in 1951 and died after 19 years in a Chinese prison. To this day, the CIA denies he was an agent.

    “We give our most sensitive cases to those officers serving under non-official cover,” explains Melissa Mahle, who spent 14 years in the Middle East as a covert CIA operative maintaining a series of fictitious “legends,” or cover stories, created by her superiors.

    “I conducted espionage. I went overseas, I recruited agents,” says Mahle.

    She left the agency three years ago, and recently struck up a friendship with a woman whose career ran parallel to her own: Valerie Plame Wilson.

    “People have said, ‘Oh, well, Valerie wasn't serving in a sensitive position. So it's not really that serious.’ Well, I would say that's a very fallacious way of looking at this because a cover is for a clandestine officer can be different things at different times. We change cover. We modify cover based on how we need it,” says Mahle. “If you start to unravel one part of that, you can unravel the whole thing.”

    Mahle says Valerie was working on important national security issues, like keeping tabs on nuclear material and the world’s top nuclear scientists. “She is an expert on weapons of mass destruction. These are the kind of people that don't grow on trees.”

    What do agents in that division do? “They're trying to figure out, really, the hard questions of who has the capability obtaining and deploying a biological weapon. Or a chemical weapon. Who's doing it? What are those networks? What are the financial trails?” says Mahle.

    The CIA has yet to conduct a formal damage assessment. The agency wanted to wait until the investigation by the special prosecutor was over.

    But agency representatives have come to Capitol Hill to brief the intelligence committees about steps they’ve taken to “mitigate the effects of the leak.”

    “I think any time the identity of a covert agent is released, there is some damage. And it's serious,” says Congressman Rush Holt, a Democrat from New Jersey and a member of the House Intelligence Committee.

    Rep. Holt says some people Valerie Wilson came into contact with overseas, even those who didn’t know she was a covert operative, could be in danger.

    “Have you had assurances that the agency is handling the fallout from this leak?” Bradley asked.

    “They have taken the usual procedures to protect the damage from spreading,” Rep. Holt replied.

    “Is it possible that someone overseas, someone is going to jail because of this?” Bradley asked Holt. “Sure, it's possible.”

    “Is it possible that somebody lost their life?” Bradley asked. “It's possible.
    I don't know,” the congressman said.

    Rep. Holt pointed out there has not yet been a formal assessment. “If there were, and I had been briefed on it, I couldn't talk about it.” ...

    And the damage to Valerie Plame Wilson was serious, as spelled out by the special prosecutor. “Valerie Wilson’s friends, neighbors, college classmates had no idea she had another life,” Fitzgerald said.

    When they first met, Wilson says Plame told him she was a risk analyst for an international firm...

    When she saw Novak’s column, he says, it came as a complete shock. Eighteen years of a meticulously-crafted cover, exposed in an instant.

    “She felt like she had been hit in the stomach. It took her breath away. She recovered quickly because, of course, you don't do what she did for a living without understanding stress. And she became very matter of fact right afterwards. And started making lists of what she had to do to ensure that her assets, her projects, her programs and her operations were protected,” Wilson said.

    “Did she realize then that her career as an undercover agent for the CIA was over?” Bradley asked.

    “Absolutely. Sure. There was no doubt about it in her mind. And she wondered for what,” Wilson said.

    “Novak also published the name of the front company that your wife used for cover, Brewster-Jennings & Associates. How would you characterize that disclosure?”
    Bradley asked.

    “I think it was abominable. But when he published her name, it was very easy to unravel everything about her, her entire cover. You live your cover. And so you live Brewster-Jennings. So, she would have had business cards that said Brewster-Jennings on them. So, that was just insult to injury. And it was just Mr. Novak taking a second bite of the apple,” says Wilson.

    Wilson confirmed that as a CIA agent, his wife was working to uncover information about weapons of mass destruction. Since she is still an agency employee, Valerie Wilson has been silent. Despite the fact it has been two years since she was exposed, the CIA still won’t comment on the record about the damage.

    “Did your wife ask for protection from the agency?” Bradley asked.

    “I don't go into security matters. But, you can be sure that we discussed security at great length with various agencies,” Wilson said.

    And Wilson says there have been specific threats. “There have been specific threats. Beyond that, I just can't go.”

    Former agent Jim Marcinkowski says one of the worst things about the leak is that it gives America’s enemies clues about how the CIA operates. “She is the wife of an ambassador, for example. Now, since this happened, every wife of an ambassador is going to be suspected. Or they'll know there's a possibility that the wife of a U.S. ambassador is a CIA agent.”

    “I get the impression you get really angry about what happened,” Bradley asked Melissa Mahle.

    “Of course I do, because we're talking about lives and we're talking about capabilities. We do our work. We risk our own lives. We risk lives of our agents in order to protect our country. And when something like this happens, it cuts to the very core of what we do. We're not being undermined by the North Koreans. We're not being undermined by the Russians. We're being undermined by officials in our own government. That I find galling,” Mahle said.

    Valerie Wilson still reports to work every day at CIA headquarters in Langley, Va. Friends say her status as America’s most famous spy makes it impossible for her to remain in the clandestine service of the CIA, a place where she’s spent her entire working life...
    Last edited by BARYE; 10/31/2005 at 01:56 AM.
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  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I urge all you chicken hawk pansy patriots to....

    ...That the Rove/Libby/cheney/junior cabal should be so cavalier with putting other brave people's lives in danger should come as no surprise -- it fits a pattern of these heroic chicken hawks from Vietnam until now in Iraq.

    I hope you are all proud being lead by them ...
    Now that is a great way to set the tone to open a constructive debate with an open mind.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 10/31/2005 at 03:57 AM.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    60 minutes
    You could have stopped right there. This is the same unbiased 60 Minutes that ran the forged Air National Guard documents. They have zero credibility.
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  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes
    Now that is a great way to set the tone to open a constructive debate with an open mind.
    I'm sure BARYE's been called lots of things - except open-minded.

    I'm sure he also has a long track record of defending the CIA's covert operations capabilities.
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  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    You could have stopped right there. This is the same unbiased 60 Minutes that ran the forged Air National Guard documents. They have zero credibility.
    I wouldn't claim that 60 minutes has zero credibility by running that one story.
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  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Now that is a great way to set the tone to open a constructive debate with an open mind.
    Sometimes you have to look past it...(not like he is the only one that does it). There seems to be a very important story here.
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