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  1. #121  
    Doesnt GM own Saab??
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  2. #122  
    Yes - and Ford owns Volvo.
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  3. #123  
    Right
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  4. #124  
    and Ford is in bed with Mazda and Jaguar
  5. #125  
    Don't forget Aston-Martin!
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  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by RythmDivine
    ...
    What is the actual amount of US citizens that
    ...
    3) are considered to be Poor

    ?
    Let's qualify what it means to be "poor" in the US.

    Most truly impoverished people in the world would welcome the opportunity to experience American "poverty"
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Let's qualify what it means to be "poor" in the US.

    Most truly impoverished people in the world would welcome the opportunity to experience American "poverty"
    I have found over my life that those who primarily experience America through the lens of our exported media tend to have a somewhat distorted view of us. I've seen it on this board as well - our friend from Switzerland seems to feel that America is populated entirely by knuckle-dragging creationists, for example.

    People are so quick to believe caricatures (when conservatives do this it's called prejudice or stereotyping) without examining reality. I catch myself doing it despite my best efforts not to.
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  8. #128  
    phurth, I do not know where you got your info from, but i certainly can tell you that the entire world did not belive Iraq had WMDs prior to the war. Several UN reports by Hans Blixt clearly stated that they (UN Inspections) didnt find any WMDs. This is also (one of) the reason that millions of europeans demonstrated against the war. This is not exactly unknown facts either, you can google it really easy. Discussing topics is a fine thing but do not lie while doing so. Wasnt it your president that said something about "fool me once..."?

    About the numbers you give on immigration, as far as i can tell they are correct, both ways. But where did you find them?

    And just for the record, I am not saying that Sweden is a social paradise! Just that it is, for the majority of a population, a better option than the US model. And why would it not work in the USA?
    Last edited by RythmDivine; 10/30/2005 at 11:43 AM.
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by RythmDivine
    phurth, I do not know where you got your info from, but i certainly can tell you that the entire world did not belive Iraq had WMDs prior to the war. Several UN reports by Hans Blixt clearly stated that they (UN Inspections) didnt find any WMDs.
    With this point always coming up on a regular basis with several different approaches, I have replied to it in extreme detail several times over. Instead of requoting everything, here are some of the links to my responses:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=289 -- WMDs

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...5&postcount=49 -- Blixt reports

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=290 -- Timeline of US policy on Iraq

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=202 -- World Intelligence of WMDs

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=206 -- World Intelligence of WMDs

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...6&postcount=47 -- Iraq accountability for WMDs

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=215 -- World Intelligence of WMDs

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=306 -- Iraq and Terrorists & WMDs
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=292 -- Iraq and Terrorists & WMDs
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=294 -- Iraq and Terrorists & WMDs
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=296 -- Iraq and Terrorists & WMDs
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...&postcount=307 -- Iraq and Terrorists & WMDs

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...6&postcount=50 -- Should have gone after Iran instead of Iraq
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 10/30/2005 at 02:06 PM.
  10. #130  
    edit: this post removed as it was a "technical error" due to a shortage of language capabillities on my side.
    Last edited by RythmDivine; 10/30/2005 at 02:19 PM.
  11. #131  
    Concerning prewar intell, world intelligence from other countries and the UN, Blixt reports, UN Instpections, and the claim of WMDs in Iraq.

    I just linked to previous responses of mine to some of these topics.
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by RythmDivine
    phurth, I do not know where you got your info from, but i certainly can tell you that the entire world did not belive Iraq had WMDs prior to the war. Several UN reports by Hans Blixt clearly stated that they (UN Inspections) didnt find any WMDs. This is also (one of) the reason that millions of europeans demonstrated against the war. This is not exactly unknown facts either, you can google it really easy. Discussing topics is a fine thing but do not lie while doing so. Wasnt it your president that said something about "fool me once..."?
    It's not a lie. It is the uncomfortable (for the war's opponents) truth. Hobbes posted the links. Everyone (even France!) thought Iraq had WMD and was hiding them. Saddam was acting very much as if he had something to hide. Perhaps it is not I who needs to read more on the subject.

    My feeling is that the protests in Europe were more about anti-Americanism and anti-Bush feelings than any sort of principled stance against the war. And again it must be said that WMD was only one of a number of justifications given for the war.
    About the numbers you give on immigration, as far as i can tell they are correct, both ways. But where did you find them?
    The US Office of Immigration Statistics (http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/sta...a/DSNat04c.htm)
    And just for the record, I am not saying that Sweden is a social paradise! Just that it is, for the majority of a population, a better option than the US model. And why would it not work in the USA?
    Because Sweden is a small heterogenous nation with a totally different social structure. Also, there is not yet enough evidence that social democracy will work over the long run. American capitalism and the free market are hardly perfect, but we do have a 200+ year track record to refer to.

    Don't misunderstand - I have nothing negative to say about Sweden - all I'm saying is that your social institutions are not automatically transferrable to America anymore than ours are to Sweden.
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  13. #133  
    No one get offended... this is humor meant to lighten things up.

    IKEA Claims Another 10,000 Lifestyles

    ATLANTA—IKEA, the rapidly growing Swedish retailer of inexpensive home furnishings, claimed another 10,000 American lifestyles in 2003, according to a report released Tuesday by the Center for Interior Design Control.

    http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30546
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  14. #134  
    The swedish government declared before the war, that there might not be evidence enough to prove that Iraq has no WMDs, but also that there wasnt enough evidence to prove that such weapons existed. Thats why Sweden wanted more time for the inspectors. And thats why the kingdom would not justify a war on Iraq (for that reason at least), as such an attack would violate international law. So clearly the entire world did not belive this prior to the war. Dont go altering history with lies!

    Back on topic: Sweden is hardly heterogenous anymore. Of our small (tiny is IMHO not a good definition ) population of 9 million, we have approx. 12% citizens of non-swedish heritage. This includes a substantial amount of Finns of course, but even excluding them we have a lot of citizens of non-swedish heritage. Of course one system cannot be applied to another without some altering and a load of speedbumps. But in due time, why not?

    Another question: Is it correct that US citizens do not have payed holidays by law?

    about IKEA...sooner or later everyone wants to become swedish
  15. #135  
    I'd like to get back to the topic, but I'm going to be called a liar I have to defend my position.
    The swedish government declared before the war, that there might not be evidence enough to prove that Iraq has no WMDs, but also that there wasnt enough evidence to prove that such weapons existed.
    Iraq had demostrated a WMD capability during their war with Iran and by using them against their own people. Weapons inspectors after the 1991 Gulf War confirmed their continued existence. No credible proof existed that the weapons were ever destroyed. You claim that before the 2003 war that it was known that there were no WMD. Your statement above contradicts that assertion. Your own government said there was no proof there were no WMD. We know Iraq previously had them. Saddam was behaving as if he was hiding something. It was folly to continue the inspections process any longer - Iraq had already strung the world along for several years - in violation of UN resolutions. He appeared to be making a fool of the world (again).
    Thats why Sweden wanted more time for the inspectors. And thats why the kingdom would not justify a war on Iraq (for that reason at least), as such an attack would violate international law.
    As I said, WMD was just one of several reasons given.
    Back on topic: Sweden is hardly heterogenous anymore. Of our small (tiny is IMHO not a good definition ) population of 9 million, we have approx. 12% citizens of non-swedish heritage. This includes a substantial amount of Finns of course, but even excluding them we have a lot of citizens of non-swedish heritage. Of course one system cannot be applied to another without some altering and a load of speedbumps. But in due time, why not?
    Uh... sounds pretty homogenous (and tiny) to me.

    The "how come" is that Americans tend to value personal freedom, liberty and responsibility above social security. The Swedish system wouldn't work because it would have to be imposed.
    Another question: Is it correct that US citizens do not have payed holidays?
    It depends on the employer. There are no govt. mandated paid holidays (or vacation, in American )
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  16. #136  
    No no no. Read my posts again. I never said that it was known that Iraq did not have WMDs. I said that your claim that the entire world believed them to have it, was a lie.

    ontopic: In what way do you think that personal freedom, liberty & responsibility would suffer with free medical care for all? Because of the higher taxation?

    Vacation, i must to remember that word. So...how much vacation does an average american have? I mean, I would think that it is hardly in the interest of the shareholders of the employer to give away five weeks worth of wages if they dont have to? How does such a system work in practice?
  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by RythmDivine
    No no no. Read my posts again. I never said that it was known that Iraq did not have WMDs.
    You said:
    So clearly the entire world did not belive this prior to the war.
    ...and...
    i certainly can tell you that the entire world did not belive Iraq had WMDs prior to the war.
    Perhaps I misunderstood you?

    As I have already established, Iraq's possesion of WMD was established beyond any doubt. The weapons inspectors' job prior to the 2003 war was to establish whether the weapons known to have existed had been destroyed. Primarily due to obstruction by the Hussein regime (why obstruct if they'd had nothing to hide???) they were unable to do this. There was no rational reason to expect that continued inspections would accomplishing anything beyond further delay. Again - the onus was upon Iraq to prove they had destroyed previously known stocks of WMD. And most of the world believed he had those stocks of WMD. To not believe this would have been a denial of reality as it was understood at the time.

    One would think there'd be more concern with what exactly happened to those weapons. Were they destroyed? Are they buried in the desert somewhere? Were they shipped to Syria or elsewhere? Were they a figment of the Hussein regime's imagination, used to intimidate its neighbors? No one seems very concerned with finding out.
    I said that your claim that the entire world believed them to have it, was a lie.
    I will grant you that some may have claimed that it was not known how many or whether Iraq still possesed WMDs. No one was claiming for certain that Iraq had none - and as I've said, not knowing meant one had to assume they had them because of their demonstrated prior possession.
    ***
    ontopic: In what way do you think that personal freedom, liberty & responsibility would suffer with free medical care for all? Because of the higher taxation?
    You say "free". Nothing is free. Higher taxation is a burden and does reduce freedom and liberty. There are other more ominous costs of socialized medicine, however:

    - He who has the pay, has the say: if the government is paying for my health care, they at some point will begin to encourage lifestyle options that are "for the good of society" as a whole. Government will begin dictating what people can and can not do in their personal lives.
    - Innovation would suffer. With no profit motive, cutting-edge medical procedures might never be developed, or at best at a much slower rate than presently. The portion of the world with socialized medicine is actually receiving an "innovation subsidy" from the U.S.. Such procedures developed here are then exported without even a thank you.
    - Patient care would suffer. I've read numerous stories of very long waits for patient care in countries with socialized medicine. The best quality medical care in the world is available in the U.S..
    - Say goodbye to all the new wonder drugs developed in the U.S. and sold worldwide.

    No one in our medical delivery system goes without medical care, regardless of ability to pay. The poor do receive medical benefits. Even those that do not can't be turned away.
    Vacation, i must to remember that word. So...how much vacation does an average american have? I mean, I would think that it is hardly in the interest of the shareholders of the employer to give away five weeks worth of wages if they dont have to? How does such a system work in practice?
    It's really hard to say what the average is since each employer is different. Wherever I've worked, I've always gotten at least two weeks (not including sick and/or personal time). The amount of vacation one receives typically goes up with tenure with a specific employer. Five weeks would be considered a lot by an American worker, though. Frankly, I think a lot of American workers wouldn't know what to do with 5 weeks of time off. I know I'd go stir-crazy.
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    #138  
    Well, back to the original post in this thread on how Finland has it right "Notable Quote: "Fifty years ago, Finland was known for little more than the wood pulp from its endless forests. A poverty-stricken land of poorly educated loggers and farmers on the edge of the Arctic Circle, few paid it any attention.

    Today, this small Nordic nation boasts a thriving hi-tech economy ranked the most competitive in the world, the best educated citizenry of all the industrialized countries, and a welfare state that has created one of the globe's most egalitarian societies."

    It appears they also like their booze.

    http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/1....k691fy35.html
    Alcohol-related deaths in Finland jump 20 pct
  19. #139  
    Numbers and charts and graphs - oh my!

    http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/510
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  20. #140  
    I work at a million $ a year company. It was moved from Florida to Tijuana, MX. Where.... we got higher quality, better average output %, higher profits, lower bottom lines. with a nearly 300% growth in the last 2 years the mexicans have been able to get us there. The lazy americans that were working for us before could NOT have gotten us there.

    There is no reason that i can think of that the mexicans can't have better pay (vs. avg mx pay over the last few years) for doing a better job. I don't have #'s, and don't need to look them up. If someone wants to look up the adjusted pay scale for mexico vs US over the last few years then go ahead. what i know is that there is no reason to be selfish with our money. If you want to "protect the many" then protect the many in the other countries as well.

    Instead of saying why don't we keep jobs in our country, should we stop there??? why not keep jobs in our own region, state, county, city, street, household??? Now.. of course you're going to say there's no need to get stupid and say all that. I agree.

    Business is business. If a business moves from some state that has relatively high labor costs, and moves to a state with relatively low labor costs, why not ***** about that. This entire discussion, while mostly intelligent and well based in facts (mostly) is not going to sway any one persons view of outsourcing/moving out of country. If we could have logistically moved to china we would have. If we can logistically move to iraq where labor costs are speculated to be lowest in the world, we will.

    Why do we have XXX million illegal mexican aliens in this country?? as Mexican President Vicente Fox said Speaking in Spanish, "There is no doubt that Mexicans, filled with dignity, willingness and ability to work, are doing jobs that not even blacks want to do there in the United States." While that is itself not a factual statement, it's easily believable. how many mexicans did you see in new orleans after the hurricane? I wasn't there, but I don't know.... didn't see too many. what's that you say, that's only 1 city in the US. OK. whatever... it's just an example and you can find holes in any story.

    Points are, capitolism will search for higher profits. at all reasonable costs.
    If you're pissed because your job went overseas and you can't afford your porshe cayenne, then fell blessed that you don't have to feel blessed that a job came to your town that allows you to work for 12 hours a day instead of 14-16, make more money, and have a paycheck.

    In that perspective, I don't mind that my job may someday go out of country although mine won't. It's already overseas. whether it be my position in a platoon in the marine corps or an office assistant in a 1 million$ a year company. The difference is... instead of *****ing about someone else having a immeasurably better life while i may have to read a book to learn a new software, I'm keeping myself marketable to those managerial positions that will open to the shipping and logistic positions in the US to bring the foreign made goods back to this country to sell to you at a lower cost so that you can afford the gas price that's finally catching up with the rest of the world and your lifestyle is marginally affected.

    quit your complaining and adjust the regional, i mean national, i mean global changes in economics. if history is any guide, you'll either die miserable saying that you're right, or you'll realize that you're right, and you have to make yourself marketable in the changing world. either way, I hope the best for you.
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