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  1. cardio's Avatar
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    #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    Ha Ha, funny but WRONG ! Companies are now outsourcing temp jobs (illegal aliens) to have things assembled in China !
    And why do you think they are outsourcing? The American public wants higher quality for lower cost. We no longer provide that. Where was your Treo made (Tiawan). When was the last time you purchased a phone made in the US? What about the vehicle you drive, our products for the most part have not held up to the imports. I know they are assembled here now, and you can tell, the Honda's and Toyotas made in the US have more rattles, and finish issues than previously. Pride in workmanship and work ethic are a thing of the past.

    Here is a look at one article describing the work ethic (wasted time at work). Notice what age group wastes the most time.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...astingtime.TMP
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    As a consumer society we have to have a certain level of loyalty to American made products, Wal-Mart has no loyalty to this country.
    No we don't. There is no such thing as consumer "loyalty" in any real sense. You're describing a world that exists nowhere outside your earnest wishes. There are laws of economics which dictate that consumers as a whole will purchase the best acceptable products at the lowest possible prices.

    WalMart's only duty is to provide the best acceptable quality products at the lowest possible price to the consumer - all in pursuit of profits for its shareholders (to a large extent, normal people through investments, 401k plans, etc...).

    I'm sorry you don't like it, but that's how the world works. Alternatives have been tried - eventually they always fail - without exception.
    Current: iPhone 3G
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  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Actually, American workers are increasingly putting in more hours at work. Nice rhetoric though.
    This is true. I've read this on several occasions.
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  4. cardio's Avatar
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    #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    This is true. I've read this on several occasions.
    Where have you read this? What was the context, sure medical residents put in ungodly hours, but even that has been reduced. The link I posted earlier may explain this thought process, when we waste 2 hours of every 8 hour workday the job is not getting done in a timely manner. So more hours at work, but less work during those hours?
  5.    #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    No we don't. There is no such thing as consumer "loyalty" in any real sense. You're describing a world that exists nowhere outside your earnest wishes. There are laws of economics which dictate that consumers as a whole will purchase the best acceptable products at the lowest possible prices.

    WalMart's only duty is to provide the best acceptable quality products at the lowest possible price to the consumer - all in pursuit of profits for its shareholders (to a large extent, normal people through investments, 401k plans, etc...).

    I'm sorry you don't like it, but that's how the world works. Alternatives have been tried - eventually they always fail - without exception.
    So given the result of Wal-Mart taking the process you mention above as far to the extreme as possible, you're ok with this? I'm not trying to be a complete protectionist but there have to be some safeguards in place.
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Where have you read this? What was the context, sure medical residents put in ungodly hours, but even that has been reduced. The link I posted earlier may explain this thought process, when we waste 2 hours of every 8 hour workday the job is not getting done in a timely manner. So more hours at work, but less work during those hours?
    I've always heard it in the context of news stories like, "US workers have less leisure time than..." I can try and find some hard data, though.
    Current: iPhone 3G
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  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I've always heard it in the context of news stories like, "US workers have less leisure time than..." I can try and find some hard data, though.
    "US workers have less leisure time than...their North Korean counterparts."
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    So given the result of Wal-Mart taking the process you mention above as far to the extreme as possible, you're ok with this? I'm not trying to be a complete protectionist but there have to be some safeguards in place.
    Are they really that extreme? Or are they just an easy target because of their size? Can safeguards be put in place to prevent overseas slave labor from being utilized? Yes. The problem is that protectionist measures (that's what they are, and they are not necessarily bad) once in place can easily be used as a political club. In other words; today we're not allowing goods made with slave labor to be imported - a good and noble goal. Tomorrow, some politician will expand the protections so that a certain "living wage" must be paid to the overseas worker. The next day they are further expanded so that only workers allowed to unionize can be used by to supply US companies, and so on, ad infinitem. That is the fear of business, and I do not think that fear is unfounded.

    Do you know the working conditions for every worker who made each of the components in your Treo? They weren't all made in Taiwan - some surely were made in Malaysia or China or Korea... who knows where else. Should it be the duty of Cingular or Sprint or Amazon or whomever you bought it from to guarantee certain conditions for each worker who made it? Is that realistic?
    Current: iPhone 3G
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  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Actually, American workers are increasingly putting in more hours at work. Nice rhetoric though.
    More hours does not equal higher productivity nor higher quality.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    "US workers have less leisure time than...their North Korean counterparts."
    Yeah, but I bet we have more fun during our leisure time.
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    #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    More hours does not equal higher productivity nor higher quality.
    More hours of effective work does equate to higher production. This goes back to work ethic, as I stated earlier. One of the earlier articles I referenced shows that the work force born between 1980-1985 wasted over 2 hours per 8 hour work day, the work force born in 50's/60's waste around .70 hours per 8 hour day. This is what I was trying to say when I said work less hours, the youngest generation works 6 hours of the work day, not 8 hours of work. In regard to the claim that our hours are increasing this independent report does not allude to that.
    http://www.epf.org/pubs/newsletters/2002/wt20020605.pdf
  12. #92  
    The desire to see everyone receive a certain "base" level of care/provision is a philosophical matter; a noble one, surely, but philosophical none the less. It, as all philosophical views, can not be legislated. It must be indoctrinated.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    The examples are meant ot show how one Capitalist approach fails to accomplish social beenefits and the other Capitalist approach not only succeeds greatly with delivering healthcare & education but is also the most competative on the planet.

    Regardless of party philosophy, we have to look around and say to ourselves, "Damn, that works." then apply this to our own society.
    That seems like a very simple way to look at things. If I look at someone across the hall and notice that they are six foot four and wear a hat, wearing a hat will not make me 6 inches taller.
  14.    #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    That seems like a very simple way to look at things. If I look at someone across the hall and notice that they are six foot four and wear a hat, wearing a hat will not make me 6 inches taller.
    Now that is simplistic.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Now that is simplistic.
    My point exactly. You are saying "it appears to work for them, so let's do it." Give me a break. It's a single country that happens to agree with your agenda. When it does well, you claim that it was because of that agenda and you push it here. It's as simplistic as my example, except with an alterior motive to boot!
  16.    #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    My point exactly. You are saying "it appears to work for them, so let's do it." Give me a break. It's a single country that happens to agree with your agenda. When it does well, you claim that it was because of that agenda and you push it here. It's as simplistic as my example, except with an alterior motive to boot!

    My point is that the two philosophies are not exclusionary, Capitalism/Social Services. Sorry if the reality of that disagrees with your agenda.
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    No we don't. There is no such thing as consumer "loyalty" in any real sense. You're describing a world that exists nowhere outside your earnest wishes. There are laws of economics which dictate that consumers as a whole will purchase the best acceptable products at the lowest possible prices.

    WalMart's only duty is to provide the best acceptable quality products at the lowest possible price to the consumer - all in pursuit of profits for its shareholders (to a large extent, normal people through investments, 401k plans, etc...).

    I'm sorry you don't like it, but that's how the world works. Alternatives have been tried - eventually they always fail - without exception.
    I never let lowest price be the determining factor. Most people I know don't shop at Walmart because of their business model.

    I look for the best I can afford, and warranty, where it was made, who benefits from my purchase, way before looking for a stupid maketing ploy of falling prices. Walmart sells crap, period.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    My point is that the two philosophies are not exclusionary, Capitalism/Social Services. Sorry if the reality of that disagrees with your agenda.
    That's different than saying because it appears to work for Finland that it will work somewhere else. And nice work giving me an "agenda." I'll look into it...
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    I never let lowest price be the determining factor. Most people I know don't shop at Walmart because of their business model.

    I look for the best I can afford, and warranty, where it was made, who benefits from my purchase, way before looking for a stupid maketing ploy of falling prices. Walmart sells crap, period.
    Crap? A lot of stuff, maybe, but I just saw the Moto Razr there the other day for $99 - the lowest retail price I've ever seen it for. I might not want a Razr, put obviously many people do and wouldn't consider it "crap."

    Low prices are rarely the determining factor, but are almost always a factor. Usually an important factor.

    Considering WalMart is the top retailer in the world, you've pretty much eliminated yourself (and your friends) as "typical" consumers - not that that's a bad thing, just an observation.
    Current: iPhone 3G
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  20.    #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    That's different than saying because it appears to work for Finland that it will work somewhere else.

    Didn't say that. You did.
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