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  1. cardio's Avatar
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    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Perhaps because he wanted his neighbors fearful.

    To me, this is the one legitimate reason for invading Iraq. The Bush administration never refers to it, perhaps because it was the UN that should have been offended and it refused to act. Without the UN, it was neither legitimate nor sufficient.
    The UN is a joke. They will do whatever a country wants as long as the under the table money is enough. If you do not beleive me, just look at the countries that represent human rights commissions.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    The UN is a joke. They will do whatever a country wants as long as the under the table money is enough. If you do not beleive me, just look at the countries that represent human rights commissions.
    Perhaps. However, if they are only for sale and we are the richest country in the world, why can we not buy them. (And please do not try to suggest that we are too scrupulous. That dog won't hunt.)
  3. cardio's Avatar
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    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Perhaps. However, if they are only for sale and we are the richest country in the world, why can we not buy them. (And please do not try to suggest that we are too scrupulous. That dog won't hunt.)
    Might I suggest jealosy. Everyone wants to see the big dog fail (even if he won't hunt). It happens in our personal lives (everyone gloats when the patriots lose, or the Trojans lose) it happens in the coorporate world, see the smiles when Microsoft has a blunder, and it happens in politcis look at Barye and DAT talking about Delay, Libby etc. It happens in Gov't circles so the UN members like to see the US lose some of their power.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    I just thank God for the VOLUNTARY military and their willingness to die. I am also thankful that you are the minority and your view wasn't around during WW I and WW II.
    Actually it was. There were several anti-war movements during WWII that were against the US position in the war. Speaking out against our troops and what they were trying to accomplish and why. The major difference is the amount of and delayed timeframe news was distributed. Imagine how much more power these groups would have had if they saw the carnage during the first 48 hours of the D-Day invasion live on CNN and Fox News. This is what they have now.

    The media is at fault as well as they focuses only on the tragic deaths of our service, while failing on a daily basis to report why they gave their lives for (i.e. to capture 140 insurgents, uncover a huge cache of arms and explosives, to capture a high ranking AQ, etc...).
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Perhaps. However, if they are only for sale and we are the richest country in the world, why can we not buy them. (And please do not try to suggest that we are too scrupulous. That dog won't hunt.)
    Maybe because they have already been bought, i.e. Oil for Food. Maybe because buying votes and support kind of negates the process and foundation the UN was established on. Or maybe then it would be easier and cheaper to just buy support in the countries we need support from in a given situation rather than buying support and votes from 50 other countries that have nothing to do with the situation but will be voting.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    The media is at fault as well as they focuses only on the tragic deaths of our service, while failing on a daily basis to report why they gave their lives for (i.e. to capture 140 insurgents, uncover a huge cache of arms and explosives, to capture a high ranking AQ, etc...).
    It took the insurgents and terrorists 18 months to kill the first 1000 US soldiers, and 13 months for the next 1000. The other side seems to advance faster.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  7. cardio's Avatar
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    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    It took the insurgents and terrorists 18 months to kill the first 1000 US soldiers, and 13 months for the next 1000. The other side seems to advance faster.
    Faulty logic clulup. you have to take into consideration the indiviuals who have died since they were injured. If a soldier was wounded 21 months ago and died this month (does not have to be directly related to initial injury) then they are counted in that number. We (general public) do not know how many were killed and how many were wounded and died later.

    BTW Welcome back, how was your trip.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Faulty logic clulup. you have to take into consideration the indiviuals who have died since they were injured. If a soldier was wounded 21 months ago and died this month (does not have to be directly related to initial injury) then they are counted in that number.
    Wrong due to medical reasons. The number of soldiers who die much later than they were wounded can safely be assumed to be close to zero. Once you survive the accute trauma, you will not die from the wounds significantly later.
    BTW Welcome back, how was your trip.
    Thanks for asking, beach was excellent.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    It took the insurgents and terrorists 18 months to kill the first 1000 US soldiers, and 13 months for the next 1000. The other side seems to advance faster.
    Welcome back! Off topic was slow in your absence. Coincidence? Hmmmm.

    Meanwhile, such a statistical look at war is ridiculous. The number of casualties is not a legitimate measure of whether a military mission was accomplished. Sure, we would like to accomplish the mission with as little loss of life on both/all sides as possible. However, it is achieving the mission that is critical.

    However, given the proclivity towards statistics, let's not forget that the first 3000+ non-combatants were slaughtered in a matter of a few hours.

    Perhaps the 2000 were willing to sacrifice their lives over a period of 2.5 years to help ensure that their fellow citizens don't have to sacrifice theirs once again over a period of 2.5 hours.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Perhaps the 2000 were willing to sacrifice their lives over a period of 2.5 years to help ensure that their fellow citizens don't have to sacrifice theirs once again over a period of 2.5 hours.
    Methinks you are referring to 9/11... is that really so? That would be strange, because it is a long established fact that there is no link of any importance between 9/11 and Saddam Hussein's Iraq.

    Sad that this misbelief still seems to linger in the American public.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    It took the insurgents and terrorists 18 months to kill the first 1000 US soldiers, and 13 months for the next 1000. The other side seems to advance faster.
    You missed my point. The media has continually reported the deaths of our servicemen, which I do not have a problem with.....while totally ignoring what was accomplished due to their sacrifice. This lends to lopsided journalism without telling the whole story.

    I have read countless articles giving all the numbers of our dead, and IF they even mention what they did during that mission (i.e. find and destroy 6 basements full of ammo and bombs, captured 60 insurgents and took them off the streets, killed 40 insurgents, stopped a planned attack on a civilian target like a school or hotel, etc...) they put it down like in paragraph 27 of a 30 paragraph article.

    The only way I can often see much of the progess in Iraq or Afghanistan is not through the MSM, but rather through a site like http://www.centcom.mil/ or http://www.defenselink.mil/news/ or http://www.mnf-iraq.com/ or http://www.mnf-iraq.com/releases.htm . If I can find this information so easily why can't CNN, MSNBC, New York Times, Fox News, etc....?
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 10/26/2005 at 05:48 PM.
  12. cardio's Avatar
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    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Wrong due to medical reasons. The number of soldiers who die much later than they were wounded can safely be assumed to be close to zero. Once you survive the accute trauma, you will not die from the wounds significantly later.Thanks for asking, beach was excellent.
    No, there is a significant number of post trauma injuries that we are able to maintain patients life utilizing speacilized teams (Critical Care AIr Transport) basically an aircraft configured with a portable ICU. There are CCAT Teams stationed all over the region that transport critically inured patients to a stable environment. Once these patients are at a major medical facility the wounds are treated, but there will be those that never regain contol of their own life. These patients may die through natural progression or the family may decide to terminate life support. While your statement was true in the past (even in the 1st Gulf War) our medical technology today means that is no longer the case. Actually the individual that was the 2000th service member to die was injured some months ago.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    You missed my point. The media has continually reported the deaths of our servicemen, which I do not have a problem with.....while totally ignoring what was accomplished due to their sacrifice.
    So far, all there is is a country in the grip of insurgents and terrorists, a newly established training ground for Al Qaida terrorists, now specialising in urban warfare, much more suitable for hurting the West than the techniques they learnt in Afghanistan.

    A vote is a nice thing, but if does not lead to a better life and more stability in Iraq, it is of highly limited value for the population. Even if technically the constitution passed, the majority of Sunni Iraqis voted against it, and Iraq will continue to disintegrate, at least there are no signs for a change of direction so far.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ... at least there are no signs for a change of direction so far.
    ... other than that whole election thing.

    No signs the naysayers seem to want to recognize at any rate. Do they even want the Iraqis to succeed? That's something there seems to be no sign of.

    Welcome back!
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  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Actually the individual that was the 2000th service member to die was injured some months ago.
    "The U.S. military Tuesday said Staff Sgt. George T. Alexander Jr., 34, of Killeen, Texas, died Saturday from injuries sustained earlier in the week when a roadside bomb detonated near his Bradley fighting vehicle in Samarra, raising the U.S. death toll in the two-and-a-half-year-old war to 2,000."
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    So far, all there is is a country in the grip of insurgents and terrorists, a newly established training ground for Al Qaida terrorists, now specialising in urban warfare, much more suitable for hurting the West than the techniques they learnt in Afghanistan.

    A vote is a nice thing, but if does not lead to a better life and more stability in Iraq, it is of highly limited value for the population. Even if technically the constitution passed, the majority of Sunni Iraqis voted against it, and Iraq will continue to disintegrate, at least there are no signs for a change of direction so far.
    With how fast you replied, I think it would be safe to assume you didn't bother to visit any of the links I posted. Here are just some of the headlines from what they have accomplished in the last 4 days alone....how much have you heard about any of them in the MSM?

    • Task Force Baghdad Soldiers uncover weapons cache
      TAJI, Iraq -- Task Force Baghdad Soldiers discovered a weapons cache while conducting combat operations north of Baghdad Oct. 24...more
    • Terrorist stronghold raided
      BAGHDAD, Iraq – Coalition forces raided three suspected terrorist safe houses, detained six terrorists, and killed several others in the town of...more
    • Kindergarten school receives facelift
      MOSUL, Iraq – Kindergarten children in Tal Usquf, a town north of Mosul, have a newly renovated school to learn and play...more
    • Terrorists detained and VBIEDs destroyed in Husaybah
      BAGHDAD, Iraq – Coalition forces find two car bombs and detained four suspected terrorists during raids in Husaybah Oct. 24...more
    • Stryker Brigade unearths another large weapons cache near Rawah
      MOSUL, Iraq – Soldiers from 4th Squadron, 14th Cavalry Regiment (172nd Stryker Brigade Combat Team) seized a large weapons cache during...more
    • Coalition raids nab terrorists
      BAGHDAD, Iraq -- During raids on safe houses, Coalition forces killed two suspected terrorists in Mosul, Oct. 22, and detained 22...more
    • U.S. Soldiers catch terrorists planting bombs
      BAGHDAD, Iraq -- As Task Force Baghdad Soldiers continued to conduct aggressive combat patrols in districts in and around Baghdad Oct. 21, several...more
    • Stryker Brigade uncovers huge weapons caches near Euphrates River
      MOSUL, Iraq – Multi-National Forces from 172nd Infantry Brigade (Stryker Brigade Combat Team) uncovered 10 weapons caches and detained...more
    • Task Force Liberty Soldiers find cache, detain suspects in Bayji
      TIKRIT, Iraq - Task Force Liberty Soldiers followed a civilian’s tip and found a cache of explosives and weapons buried in several locations at...more
    • Coalition troops provide water in Diwaniyah
      CAMP ECHO, Iraq -- Reconstruction efforts by Multi-National Division Central-South troops give about 2,000 Diwaniyah residents with fresh...more


    I didn't challenge your statements but simply mentioned that the good the Multinational Troops are doing in Iraq are not being reported by the MSM and you change the subject twice to make your own point. I thought mine was a simple comment.
  17. cardio's Avatar
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    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    "The U.S. military Tuesday said Staff Sgt. George T. Alexander Jr., 34, of Killeen, Texas, died Saturday from injuries sustained earlier in the week when a roadside bomb detonated near his Bradley fighting vehicle in Samarra, raising the U.S. death toll in the two-and-a-half-year-old war to 2,000."
    My bad, you are correct. I was reading an article on new procedures to treat abdominal injuries from blast and confused him with a member who died recently at Brooks Army Medical Center.
  18. #58  
    Good news, obviously.

    From the UK Guardian (not exactly a bastion of right-wing agitprop):

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0...601208,00.html

    Selected morsels:
    This left Abu Theeb, a man who has devoted himself and his resources to fighting the Americans, in a curious position. His battle on polling day would be to secure a safe and smooth voting for his people - in a referendum organised by the enemy. In doing so he would be going up against the al-Qaida forces, and risking a split in the insurgency in Iraq.

    I spent five days with Abu Theeb and his people last week, and I witnessed a very curious thing: a bunch of mujahideens talking politics and urging restraint. "Politics for us is like filthy dead meat," Abu Theeb told me. "We are not allowed to eat it, but if you are passing through the desert and your life depends on it, God says it's OK." This is a profound shift in thinking for these insurgents, a shift that might just change the way things develop in Iraq.
    ...
    This rift in the insurgency has already gone far beyond angry words. Clashes erupted between al-Qaida fighters and Iraqi mujahideen cells after al-Qaida killed a group of Iraqi insurgents who they claimed were spying for the Americans.
    ...
    Back in the village, politics has become a hot issue. Everywhere - in the mosques after prayers, at weddings, in the main market and in private mujahideen circles - the talk is of politics. Abu Theeb says his move into politics has come at a price: he has had to shave off his beard so that he can visit Baghdad. For weeks he has been travelling, visiting houses, urging people to register to vote. "It's a new jihad," he says. "There is time for fighting and a time for politics."
    ...
    Two days after the balloting, Abu Theeb and two other clerics sat on the floor of a mosque debating the political future of their group and the Sunnis in general. "We should keep all the options open," Abu Theeb told them. Even a coalition with the enemy.
    Current: iPhone 3G
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  19. #59  
    Current: iPhone 3G
    Retired from active duty: Treo 800w, Sprint Touch, Mogul, Apache, Cingular Treo 650, HP iPaq 4350, T|T, M505 - Nokia 3650 - SE R520m, T610, T637, Moto P280, etc, etc...
  20. #60  
    Methinks you are referring to 9/11... is that really so?
    No.

    Whether AQ was there before or not, they are there now (as your latter post indicates). The likes of the same people who perpetrated mass murder on 9/11 are engaged in Iraq. So, if a body count is so critical, and if it is critical that the lives not be lost in Ě
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