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  1.    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    ... Also the quick collapse and melting into the population of the Iraqi army wasn't foreseen (along with the resultant insurgency). The influx of foreign jihadists was neither foreseen nor prevented. All these are failures of this administration...

    The most WIDELY publicized of all of Sadamms boastful threats prior to the invaison was his plan to disperse his army and conduct a peoples militia campaign against us from the streets. He had prepositioned arms and money, and had trained "Fedayeen" prepared for the 2nd phase of the war as he described it.

    This was laughingly dismissed by Rumy, Cheney and our other "experts".

    When months after "Mission Accomplished", our friends started coming home broken and maimed -- it was brushed off again as the last throes of the "dead enders"

    Millions walked the streets around the world, here in Washington, and in NY -- shouting that Iraq would become the new base for Al Queda should we be so stupid as to invade -- its clear that neither you nor junior, were listening.
    Last edited by BARYE; 10/25/2005 at 09:38 PM.
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  2.    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    ... Also the quick collapse and melting into the population of the Iraqi army wasn't foreseen (along with the resultant insurgency)....

    the Iraqi army was a willing tool -- ruled by fear, and without much in the way of independent initiative. They would have gladly taken our paycheck and continued to perform as an army, guarding the borders, oil installations, pipelines, airports etc.

    junior was too smart to do that -- he sent them home with a thank you but no thanks -- giving OUR army thousands and thousands of angry unemployed men with starving familes and the expertise to use explosives.

    Genius.
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  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Millions walked the streets around the world, here in Washington, and in NY -- shouting that Iraq would become the new base for Al Queda should we be so stupid as to invade -- its clear that neither you nor junior, were listening.
    Cite one example of this claim you make. Opponents of the war claimed invading Iraq would anger the Arab street and destabilize the Middle East (didn't happen). No one was saying Al Qaeda was going to make Iraq their "base". It is not their "base" in any case. You don't have to make things up in order to criticise the Bush administration. As I've already said, they've made plenty of mistakes.
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  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Cite one example of this claim you make. Opponents of the war claimed invading Iraq would anger the Arab street and destabilize the Middle East (didn't happen). No one was saying Al Qaeda was going to make Iraq their "base". It is not their "base" in any case. You don't have to make things up in order to criticise the Bush administration. As I've already said, they've made plenty of mistakes.
    I was there --

    I heard other people say it -- I said it.

    Now Iraq is the new training ground for Al Queda.

    junior may not know where Bin Laden and their leaders are -- but he need not look far to find their foot soldiers -- they are daily blowing up in our faces.
    Last edited by BARYE; 10/26/2005 at 09:45 AM.
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  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    but he need not look far to find their foot soldiers -- they are daily blowing up in our faces.
    Better there than New York or Los Angeles, don't you think?
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  6.    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Better there than New York or Los Angeles, don't you think?
    I fear that day comes soon enough -- I do dread Washington someday being the target of a "dirty bomb"

    Thousands of Al Queda's new recruits have been thoroughly trained in urban warfare, disguise, and infiltration.

    They have come from round the world -- from Morocco, Syria, Tunisia, Saudia Arabia, England -- to be trained, to matriculate at Al Queda college.

    Not all survive the course.

    But those able to live and leave are indescribably more skilled and dangerous now than they could ever have been before.

    When they get home they will instruct others.

    junior's war on terror -- the war without end.

    Genius ...
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  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Now Iraq is the new training ground for Al Queda.
    Actually, Iraq is the new dying ground for Al Qaeda. In case you hadn't noticed they haven't been doing very well. Their only victories have been propaganda victories- unwittingly aided by the Western opponents of the war. They believe we don't have the stomach to finish the fight. I hope they're wrong.
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  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I fear that day comes soon enough -- I do dread Washington somday being the target of a "dirty bomb"

    Thousands of Al Queda's new recruits have been thoroughly trained in urban warfare, disguise, and infiltration.

    They have come from round the world -- from Morocco, Syria, Tunisia, Saudia Arabia, England -- to be trained, to matriculate at Al Queda college.

    Not all survive the course.

    But those able to live and leave are indescribably more skilled and dangerous now than they could ever have been before.

    When they get home they will instruct others.

    junior's war on terror -- the war without end.

    Genius ...
    And your alternative plan is what, exactly? Quit? Be nice to them? Allow them to reestablish the Caliphate? Please enlighten us all with the liberal plan for combating Al Qaeda.
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  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    And your alternative plan is what, exactly? Quit? Be nice to them? Allow them to reestablish the Caliphate? Please enlighten us all with the liberal plan for combating Al Qaeda.
    even junior has said we will leave -- the only question is after how much of our blood has first been wasted -- how many Iraqi families are embittered to the point of willing to blow themselves up in their hatred of us.


    The Britsh Defense Ministry poll that began this thread reveals much of the rot beneath the pretense of our being there is helping the Iraqis. I half expected you were going to dismiss that poll by declaring that the British Defense Ministry was a secret contributor to MoveOn.org.

    You may want to read it again:

    82% want us to leave -- 45% want us dead first.
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  10. #30  
    ...still waiting to hear your plan...

    I don't accept the poll you cite at face value. You want so badly to believe it that you accept it without question.
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  11.    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    ...still waiting to hear your plan...

    I don't accept the poll you cite at face value. You want so badly to believe it that you accept it without question.

    The plan ??!!??

    The plan was what there wasn't in March 2003.

    Now what we have is a catastrophe.

    A catastrophe undiluted by the blood and sacrifice of the 2000 friends, fathers and sons already wasted.

    The difference between our leaving now and next year, or the year after that, is in the numbers of our dead -- not in the change we will leave.

    I sincerely fear for those Iraqis trusting us and trying to work toward a democratic Iraq. What will happen to them after we leave ?? We will leave, we will not protect them, and many will wish they had never known us.

    Western armies have easily conquered arab land before:

    Kabul, Afghanistan 1842; Baghdad 1917; the crusades.

    They have left in despair and ignominy...
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  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    shopharim, I only know what is quoted by the Reuters news story --

    It was based on a poll conducted on behalf of Britsh defense ministry
    This is all I see:
    LONDON (Reuters) - Forty-five percent of Iraqis believe attacks on U.S. and British troops are justified, according to a secret poll said to have been commissioned by British defense leaders and cited by The Sunday Telegraph.

    Less than 1 percent of those polled believed that the forces were responsible for any improvement in security, according to poll figures.

    Eighty-two percent of those polled said they were "strongly opposed" to the presence of the troops.

    The paper said the poll, conducted in August by an Iraqi university research team, was commissioned by the Ministry of Defense.

    Britain has more than 8,000 troops stationed in the south of Iraq, and has had 97 soldiers killed, the most recent the victim of a roadside bomb on Tuesday night.
    This is all I see. Please provide a link to the other data points?
  13. #33  
    I don't like to follow statistics and numbers. Especially when it involves politics. For example, let's use the fact that 82% of Iraqi's polled are opposed to troops occupying Iraq. That's all great and everything but how do we know it's not 82% of 5 people? Or that a majority of those polled were fundamentalist Muslims who hate everything about the U.S.? I'm not refuting these numbers, I just think that without more information they are bias and disingenuous.


  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    The difference between our leaving now and next year, or the year after that, is in the numbers of our dead -- not in the change we will leave.

    I sincerely fear for those Iraqis trusting us and trying to work toward a democratic Iraq. What will happen to them after we leave ?? We will leave, we will not protect them, and many will wish they had never known us.
    I sincerely fear that the US will listen to the whining of their "friends" back home and leave before it's time....then in fact we'll have done nothing and those 2000 brave soldiers would have died in vain. Let's make it so those soldiers that aren't coming home, have sacraficed for a reason....let's support the ones that are still there by letting them complete the job they are assigned and come home as successes and not failures.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    The plan ??!!??

    The plan was what there wasn't in March 2003.
    So no? No plan for dealing with Iraq and the current jifadist threat beyond simply bugging out?
    Now what we have is a catastrophe.

    A catastrophe undiluted by the blood and sacrifice of the 2000 friends, fathers and sons already wasted.
    Show me credible evidence of this "catastrophe" you constantly assert. Ask the hundreds of thousands of service men and women and their families if they feel their sacrifices were ''wasted".
    .The difference between our leaving now and next year, or the year after that, is in the numbers of our dead -- not in the change we will leave.

    I sincerely fear for those Iraqis trusting us and trying to work toward a democratic Iraq. What will happen to them after we leave ?? We will leave, we will not protect them, and many will wish they had never known us.
    Only if you get your way and they are abandoned to the tender mercies of the terrorists.
    Western armies have easily conquered arab land before:

    Kabul, Afghanistan 1842; Baghdad 1917; the crusades.

    They have left in despair and ignominy...
    I could be wrong, but I don't think any of your examples involved the "conquerors" trying to help establish democracy. How are they even remotely relevant?
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  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenCode
    I don't like to follow statistics and numbers. Especially when it involves politics. For example, let's use the fact that 82% of Iraqi's polled are opposed to troops occupying Iraq. That's all great and everything but how do we know it's not 82% of 5 people? Or that a majority of those polled were fundamentalist Muslims who hate everything about the U.S.? I'm not refuting these numbers, I just think that without more information they are bias and disingenuous.
    This is why I was inquiring about the source. usually, the polling data includes some type of demographic profile of the respondents. I wanted to evaluate the findings in light of that data.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    This is why I was inquiring about the source. usually, the polling data includes some type of demographic profile of the respondents. I wanted to evaluate the findings in light of that data.
    Don't hold your breath. It was a "secret" survey.
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  18. #38  
    2000 deaths -- to what end have they been sacraficed, how many more will die ?
    Ask John Kerry, he voted for the war.

    Who knows how many will die. I just thank God for the VOLUNTARY military and their willingness to die. I am also thankful that you are the minority and your view wasn't around during WW I and WW II.
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    #39  
    I find it amusing that BARYE will readily cite a MSM source when it will bolster his view of the deep hatred for anything non-liberal yet ignores the reports from the vast majority of the soldiers who are on the ground day in and day out. The folks who are actually putting their lives on the line for what they believe in have much more crredibility than the reporters who want their story on the front page. The soldier is not going to sensationalize the account for his glory, the reporter knows nothing else. Is it easy lugging around 80 pounds of equipment as you walk the street looking for the radicals who have been told if they kill a non-muslim they will be immediately transported to heaven, no it is not easy, it is hard, dirty, and tiring. Is it worth it, hell yes, every time a child comes up and hugs your leg, or a young woman smiles and bows in appreciation or an aged man or women reaches and holds your hand with tears in their eyes and in broken english says thank you, you have given us a life worth living. Or when the young men raise their fist in the air and chant USA, USA, USA and your heart swells with pride, yeah it's worth it. I know you do not see that on MSM, it just would not sell as many stories as the story of child sitting on the street crying because some radical trying to get to heaven drove a vehicle into a group of people and his mother was killed.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    .......The mystery is why Saddam acted in every way as if he *did* have WMD to hide.......
    Perhaps because he wanted his neighbors fearful.

    To me, this is the one legitimate reason for invading Iraq. The Bush administration never refers to it, perhaps because it was the UN that should have been offended and it refused to act. Without the UN, it was neither legitimate nor sufficient.
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