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  1. #41  
    [QUOTE=BARYE]

    a catastophic blunder of monstrous dimension -- the direct product of ignorance disguised by arrogance




    an initial success being overcome by the derelection of resources and focus of iraq




    which it had been attempting to negotiate prior to 9/11 -- and had nothing to do with it or junior (everything to do with Quaddafi's intending to let his son inherit his "throne"



    junior's axis of evil pose ramped what had been a minor simmering nuisance into a world class festering atomic bomb armed nightmare




    they have gone from a place where their zeolot young fly airplanes into our skyscrapers, to one where the vast majority of even their ordinary citizens HATE us because of the savagery they've observed going on in Iraq.
    Nonetheless, we may yet hope for some good outcomes. I cannot imagine any that will justify the means. Policy cannot be judged by outcomes alone. It must also be judged by how the outcomes are achieved. In this case the means included preemption of Congress' constitutional right to declare war, lying to the world, and killing of civilians. [ http://slate.msn.com/id/2108887/
    The IBC estimates that between 14,181 and 16,312 Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the war—about half of them since the battlefield phase of the war ended last May. ]
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    If the Saudis or Arabs in general hate us for anything (an assertion you make with no basis) it is this:

    I can live with that.
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAH!!!!!!!

    How naive can you fawking be!?!?!?!

    Turkey will hate us for destabalizing their Southern region and Iran will thank us for strengthening it's Western border with a cousin Islamist state.

    But you just keep wagging your little purple finger and think everything is peachy. You're just adorable. (pats on head) Now run along and play.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Nonetheless, we may yet hope for some good outcomes. I cannot imagine any that will justify the means. Policy cannot be judged by outcomes alone. It must also be judged by how the outcomes are achieved. In this case the means included preemption of Congress' constitutional right to declare war, lying to the world, and killing of civilians. [ http://slate.msn.com/id/2108887/
    The IBC estimates that between 14,181 and 16,312 Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the war—about half of them since the battlefield phase of the war ended last May. ]
    No, the ends obviously do not always justify the means.

    Congress voted to approve the war. No declaration... but that hasn't happened since WWII.
    Who lied? A lie is an intentional misstatement meant to deceive.
    The only people reported as killing civilians are the terrorists. Our mistake has been in not acting more aggressively to eliminate them. This, of course is a balancing act, we also don't want to act in a heavy-handed fashion.
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  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAH!!!!!!!

    How naive can you fawking be!?!?!?!

    Turkey will hate us for destabalizing their Southern region and Iran will thank us for strengthening it's Western border with a cousin Islamist state.

    But you just keep wagging your little purple finger and think everything is peachy. You're just adorable. (pats on head) Now run along and play.
    I have facts (and pictures) to back up my assertions - in stark contrast to the... nothing you have to offer.
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    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    Nonetheless, we may yet hope for some good outcomes. I cannot imagine any that will justify the means. Policy cannot be judged by outcomes alone. It must also be judged by how the outcomes are achieved. In this case the means included preemption of Congress' constitutional right to declare war, lying to the world, and killing of civilians. [ http://slate.msn.com/id/2108887/
    The IBC estimates that between 14,181 and 16,312 Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the war—about half of them since the battlefield phase of the war ended last May. ]
    Your own source admits that the number reported (not confirmed) lies somewhere between 8,000 and 194,000 civilian deaths. Compare that to the 600,000 confirmed civilian executions by Saddam, the other 500,000 killed in the Iraq/Iran war and even using the largest number of 194,000 it is significantly lower than the 1,100,000 killed under the reign of Saddam. Now subtract the number if Iraqi civilians killed by suicide bombers killing their own neighbors, friends and families and the disparity grows much larger.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I have facts (and pictures) to back up my assertions - in stark contrast to the... nothing you have to offer.

    What do you have facts and pictures of? You have videotape footage of a jeffersonian democracy being embraced by a single group of people known as Iraqis?
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    What do you have facts and pictures of? You have videotape footage of a jeffersonian democracy being embraced by a single group of people known as Iraqis?
    Perhaps you missed the two elections held in Iraq over the past year? Perhaps you missed my list of foreign policy accomplishments earlier in this thread? You can't seem acknowledge even the most obvious achievements of those you oppose.

    No one is claiming Iraq is a Jeffersonian democracy.

    I'll note again that you've offered nothing as evidence of your assertion that Bush's foreign policy has been a colossal failure.
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  8.    #48  
    The original post pointed out an insider that characterized the decision-making process as if by a cabal.

    In a democratic country, such processes should be open and debated. One can argue that Congress was misled and that it has relinquished it's duty to debate these issues. The executive branch remains unchecked in it's closed process to this day.

    These are the risks of having the White house, House and Senate (and the supreme ct?) being run by the same party...
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  9. cardio's Avatar
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    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    The original post pointed out an insider that characterized the decision-making process as if by a cabal.

    In a democratic country, such processes should be open and debated. One can argue that Congress was misled and that it has relinquished it's duty to debate these issues. The executive branch remains unchecked in it's closed process to this day.

    These are the risks of having the White house, House and Senate (and the supreme ct?) being run by the same party...
    Well, the solution is to go to the polls and vote. That happened and the majority decided that they liked the way things were going so the party stayed in power. Will that happen again in a couple of years, we will have to wait and see.
  10.    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Well, the solution is to go to the polls and vote. That happened and the majority decided that they liked the way things were going so the party stayed in power. Will that happen again in a couple of years, we will have to wait and see.
    Totally agree. In a democracy, people get the govt. they deserve.
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  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    No, the ends obviously do not always justify the means.
    [I may remind you of this admission in another thread.]

    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Congress voted to approve the war. No declaration... but that hasn't happened since WWII.
    I concede that Congress was also derelict.
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Who lied? A lie is an intentional misstatement meant to deceive.
    I consent to the definition. In this case the "misstatements" were so pervasive and in so many spaces, that a fair-minded person might reasonably infer intent. Indeed, a fair-minded person cannot do other than to infer intent.
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    The only people reported as killing civilians are the terrorists. Our mistake has been in not acting more aggressively to eliminate them. This, of course is a balancing act, we also don't want to act in a heavy-handed fashion.
    If one chooses "pre-emptive" war, then one must take responsibility for "collateral damage." Please read the referenced article. It says that at least half of those deaths took place before the "cessation of hostilities" and the onset of terrorism. One may well argue that, in the absence of an occupation, there would have been no terrorism. In fairness, I must admit that Saddam would likely have killed some of his citizens in our absence. Therefore, the net civilian deaths cannot be known. However, we are not talking here so much about outcomes as means.

    [I recommend to everyone here The Lessons of Terrorism by Caleb Carr. It is available from Fictionwise.com as an e-book suitable for viewing on a Treo. Carr observes that Americans have systematically and routinely slaughtered innocent civilians, as a matter of strategy, in every war since the French and Indian War.]
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    What do you have facts and pictures of? You have videotape footage of a jeffersonian democracy being embraced by a single group of people known as Iraqis?
    I would think that 9.8 million voters of the Iraqi population voting with a 79% national approval during this week's election is at least a good hint at the answer to your question.

    I also find it ironic that those opposed to the idea of democracy used it to vote no as "in Anbar province, west of Baghdad, 97% voted against the document. In Salah al-Din, north of the capital, 82% rejected it.

    In Ninevah, a mixed region of Sunni Arabs, Shiites and Kurds, 55% voted against the constitution"

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...n_x.htm?csp=15
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 10/25/2005 at 10:09 PM.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray
    [I may remind you of this admission in another thread.]
    Please do. I do not believe that the ends always justify the means. Sometimes they do, obviously.
    I consent to the definition. In this case the "misstatements" were so pervasive and in so many spaces, that a fair-minded person might reasonably infer intent. Indeed, a fair-minded person cannot do other than to infer intent.
    If you're asserting that the government made these "misstatements" regardless of who was in charge - I'll agree. The same WMD claims were made under previous administrations.
    If one chooses "pre-emptive" war, then one must take responsibility for "collateral damage." Please read the referenced article. It says that at least half of those deaths took place before the "cessation of hostilities" and the onset of terrorism. One may well argue that, in the absence of an occupation, there would have been no terrorism. In fairness, I must admit that Saddam would likely have killed some of his citizens in our absence. Therefore, the net civilian deaths cannot be known. However, we are not talking here so much about outcomes as means.
    That's fair enough, however I don't know how reliable the numbers in your cited source are. I can therefore make no judgement based upon them. One thing you neglect is that Saddam will no longer be committing those crimes. The people of Iraq are free to choose their own course. Surely that counts for something?
    [I recommend to everyone here The Lessons of Terrorism by Caleb Carr. It is available from Fictionwise.com as an e-book suitable for viewing on a Treo. Carr observes that Americans have systematically and routinely slaughtered innocent civilians, as a matter of strategy, in every war since the French and Indian War.]
    When time allows, I'll check this out. It's not going to be easy to convince me of this, though.
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