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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    That's why we use intelligence, not torture. And reminder, Iraq had nothing to do with AQ.

    YOU ARE KILLING ME! How do you think we derive "intelligence"? Reading the DailyKos? DemocratUnderground? Do you think that we can use cell phone intercepts to track bin Laden? (Oops, Richard Shelby spilled those beans. Too bad the Dems can't lend us the geriatric SIGINT collectors they used to tape one of Newt's calls!) This is a HUMINT war. You get intelligence in a HUMINT war by talking to...humans. Some of them will be glad to talk to you. Others may need persuasion.

    As far as Iraq and AQ, you're being silly. Very silly. Danerously intoxicated with Bush Derangment Syndrome silly We're after TERRORISTS, be they AQ, Hezboallah, or PETA. Who was in Iraq prior to our attack? Was it "Meals on Wheels" that were training at Salman Pak? Here's some help.

    Do you think Abu Nidal was living in Baghdad on the PLO pension plan?retirement?
    (Though ultimately he was retired there.)

    Abu Musab Zarqawi fled to Baghdad AFTER we took down the Taliban, but well before we invaded. Didn't W say something about those that harbor terrorists?

    Do you remember Leon Klinghoffer? The Achile Lauro incident? Special Operations command did, and guess who they found in Baghdad?

    How about if I link to the story where Saddam upped the blood money for PLO bombers from $10k to $25k? Is that supporting terrorism, or since they were killing Jews in Israel it doesn't count?

    I know you won't answer, but I had to pose the questions just the same.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Again you ask questions, but won't answer them. A remarkable display of intellectual dishonesty. Consistent, if nothing else.

    McCain really must think someone other than the media pays attention to what he says. The servicemen KNOW the rules. They have been long established. People have broken them. People are in jail. I don't understand what, other than scoring political points in some obscure system only he understands, he thinks he has accomplished by doing this.

    Someone earlier mentioned that the Executive branch "owns" the military, but the legislative appropriates the funds. The legislative branch also writes the laws that governs the military.
    I answered your question with McCain's quote.

    In case you don't recall, Rumesfeld dictated certain procedures that would be 'legal' which the world tends to view as torture. That is the point. Also, the legislation would make it specifically illegal for the U.S. take someone to another country and allow them to torture the prisoner.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    YOU ARE KILLING ME! How do you think we derive "intelligence"? Reading the DailyKos? DemocratUnderground? Do you think that we can use cell phone intercepts to track bin Laden? (Oops, Richard Shelby spilled those beans. Too bad the Dems can't lend us the geriatric SIGINT collectors they used to tape one of Newt's calls!) This is a HUMINT war. You get intelligence in a HUMINT war by talking to...humans. Some of them will be glad to talk to you. Others may need persuasion.

    As far as Iraq and AQ, you're being silly. Very silly. Danerously intoxicated with Bush Derangment Syndrome silly We're after TERRORISTS, be they AQ, Hezboallah, or PETA. Who was in Iraq prior to our attack? Was it "Meals on Wheels" that were training at Salman Pak? Here's some help.

    Do you think Abu Nidal was living in Baghdad on the PLO pension plan?retirement?
    (Though ultimately he was retired there.)

    Abu Musab Zarqawi fled to Baghdad AFTER we took down the Taliban, but well before we invaded. Didn't W say something about those that harbor terrorists?

    Do you remember Leon Klinghoffer? The Achile Lauro incident? Special Operations command did, and guess who they found in Baghdad?

    How about if I link to the story where Saddam upped the blood money for PLO bombers from $10k to $25k? Is that supporting terrorism, or since they were killing Jews in Israel it doesn't count?

    I know you won't answer, but I had to pose the questions just the same.
    There were no AQ terrorists in Iraq. This is a simple fact.

    No, we are not torturing people to apprehend abortion clinic bombers or ELF memebers (I think you meant that when you said PETA). This entire mess began with 9-11, which was AQ.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by chckhbrt
    The answer should be obvious. Since it is not, the non-humans would be the "Terrorists" in Iraq and Afganistan.

    Am I being politically incorrect according to the Democrat thought manual?

    Chuck
    I simply don't think you know who "the terrorists" are in either of those locations. I think you, like many others, have bought into this "war on terrorism" and accept this nebulous enemy "terrorist" without asking who?, what?, where?, why? and allow his administration to run around willy-nilly pissing off the rest of the world.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    There were no AQ terrorists in Iraq. This is a simple fact.

    No, we are not torturing people to apprehend abortion clinic bombers or ELF memebers (I think you meant that when you said PETA). This entire mess began with 9-11, which was AQ.
    We are fighting terrorism. AQ is ONE organization. Those other organizations were in Iraq prior to March 2003. Are you refuting that? (I think PETA provides funding to ELF, the same way the IRA was funded by political fronts.)

    Are you saying Zarqawi isn't AQ? That he wasn't in Iraq in 2002?

    "This entire mess began with 9-11, which was AQ".

    Wow. Was I ever ignorant! I didn't know that AQ was responsible for the Marine barracks bombing in Oct of 83. WTC 93. (Great reading in that last link. I love the part about how they kicked one of the soon to be bombers loose because there wasn't room in the INS jail.)

    I'll say it again. Every post you make reassures me that as hosed up as they are right now, the Repubs will have a good shot at increasing their majorities in '06 and '08, and holding on to the White House.
  6. #26  
    (a) In General.--"No individual in the custody or under the physical control of the United States Government, regardless of nationality or physical location, shall be subject to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.

    (b) Construction.--Nothing in this section shall be construed to impose any geographical limitation on the applicability of the prohibition against cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment under this section.

    (c) Limitation on Supersedure.--The provisions of this section shall not be superseded, except by a provision of law enacted after the date of the enactment of this Act which specifically repeals, modifies, or supersedes the provisions of this section.

    (d) Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment Defined.--In this section, the term ``cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment'' means the cruel, unusual, and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, as defined in the United States Reservations, Declarations and Understandings to the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Forms of Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment done at New York, December 10, 1984. "

    The senate intends to grant constitutional rights to terrorists.

    This means no sleep deprivation. No changing the meal schedules. No stress positions. Not even a love tap to get their attention.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    We are fighting terrorism. AQ is ONE organization. Those other organizations were in Iraq prior to March 2003. Are you refuting that? (I think PETA provides funding to ELF, the same way the IRA was funded by political fronts.)

    Are you saying Zarqawi isn't AQ? That he wasn't in Iraq in 2002?

    "This entire mess began with 9-11, which was AQ".

    Wow. Was I ever ignorant! I didn't know that AQ was responsible for the Marine barracks bombing in Oct of 83. WTC 93. (Great reading in that last link. I love the part about how they kicked one of the soon to be bombers loose because there wasn't room in the INS jail.)

    I'll say it again. Every post you make reassures me that as hosed up as they are right now, the Repubs will have a good shot at increasing their majorities in '06 and '08, and holding on to the White House.
    Keep saying that to yourself and your deperate attempt to believe Iraq and 9-11 were related in an y way shape or form. The rest of the country is beginning to see the truth through the kool-aid/jingoism fog.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Keep saying that to yourself and your deperate attempt to believe Iraq and 9-11 were related in an y way shape or form. The rest of the country is beginning to see the truth through the kool-aid/jingoism fog.
    Nice attempt at conflation. Ain't gonna work. The enemy is terror by whatever name they choose. You wish to use the "AQ wasn't in Iraq, why did we attack there" bromide. Again, we are fighting terrorists, on many fronts and in many ways. We are done waiting around for the next acronym to get the first cheap shot in. Besides, Hitler didn't bomb Pearl Harbor, did he? (Or are you channeling John Belushi?)

    I have answered, in my own words, every one of your questions.
    The courage of your convictions is evidenced by your evasion.

    The people of Iraq will vote, again, next week. I suspect that you, like NRG, would love to see this whole enterprise fail in order to gain political advantage.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Nice attempt at conflation. Ain't gonna work. The enemy is terror by whatever name they choose. You wish to use the "AQ wasn't in Iraq, why did we attack there" bromide. Again, we are fighting terrorists, on many fronts and in many ways. We are done waiting around for the next acronym to get the first cheap shot in. Besides, Hitler didn't bomb Pearl Harbor, did he? (Or are you channeling John Belushi?)

    I have answered, in my own words, every one of your questions.
    The courage of your convictions is evidenced by your evasion.

    The people of Iraq will vote, again, next week. I suspect that you, like NRG, would love to see this whole enterprise fail in order to gain political advantage.
    The fact that a happy little democratic utopia will not be the result of this massive blundering exercise is not a surprise to me nor should it be to this administration. This will be at least two, basically independent states struggling to stabalize their oil industry to get what remains of their reserves into our oil addicted veins ASAP.

    You can stand on your pious platform and state you are fighting the nebulous "terrorists" for the safety of the U.S. and thus the world all you want. It's a load of crap and you know it. What happens when a "terrorist" group springs up against a U.S. enemy, such as against the Iranian gov't? Will you wage your war against them or call them Freedom Fighters. Bah! Dismissed.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I simply don't think you know who "the terrorists" are in either of those locations. I think you, like many others, have bought into this "war on terrorism" and accept this nebulous enemy "terrorist" without asking who?, what?, where?, why? and allow his administration to run around willy-nilly pissing off the rest of the world.
    Well it is clearly obvious which side of the fence you are on, and that you swallowed the Democrat propaganda machine, hook, line and sinker.

    Nuff said........

    Chuck
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    You can stand on your pious platform and state you are fighting the nebulous "terrorists" for the safety of the U.S. and thus the world all you want. It's a load of crap and you know it. What happens when a "terrorist" group springs up against a U.S. enemy, such as against the Iranian gov't? Will you wage your war against them or call them Freedom Fighters. Bah! Dismissed.
    You, the sanctimonious liberal accusing me of piety? That is FUNNY!

    Nebulous terrorists, like the ones that blew up my buddies in Beirut, or the nebulous ones that flew airliners into the WTC?

    Are you saying that the Iranian mullahs represent democracy? Are you arguing that the Iranian people do not live under a repressive regime? Are you saying that since 1979 Iran hasn't been engaged in a war by proxy against the United States? You do know what they do to women in that country, don't you? Gays? Anyone with an unauthorized website/newspaper? Are you saying you wouldn't like to see that government overthrown and replaced with an open, non-theocratic democracy? (As an aside, I think that is going to happen. Iran's population is very young and they're tired of living la vida Islam.) You wouldn't support them with training and arms? How about a kind word or two at the UN?

    You trot out the old canard, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." There is a large grain of truth to that, as evidenced by our own history. The difference to me is shining and obvious. Others are so jaded and cynical they can't bring themselves to make a moral judgment.

    Dissmissed? I think not. Those days are gone, thanks to Al Gore's wonderful internet!

    Signed,
    Your Favorite Digital Brownshirt
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by chckhbrt
    Well it is clearly obvious which side of the fence you are on, and that you swallowed the Democrat propaganda machine, hook, line and sinker.

    Nuff said........

    Chuck
    Um yea, you are aware of the congressional voting record authorizing the invasion of Iraq? Hardly split down party lines.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    You do know what they do to women in that country, don't you? Gays? Anyone with an unauthorized website/newspaper?
    And what has the situation in Iraq turned into? Has it been moved away from the situation you describe above or moved towards it?
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    That's why we use intelligence, not torture.
    Who says we're "torturing" anyone? Step out of the fever swamps for a bit. Questioning detainees without micromanagement from the brain trust in the Senate is intelligence gathering.
    And reminder, Iraq had nothing to do with AQ.
    Invading Iraq was all about pressuring Saudi Arabia (for one) into ceasing aid to AQ. I know this isn't one of the public justifications given by the President and I have a problem with that. The public reasons were valid, but ultimately were just window dressing. But I feel it's simply not true that there's no link between Iraq and the war against AQ.
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  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    And what has the situation in Iraq turned into? Has it been moved away from the situation you describe above or moved towards it?
    Obviously away. Silly question.

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  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Ok, so which people in those geographic locations are you referring to as "non-human"?
    Allow me to chime in here: the "non-human" participants in this war on terror are clearly those who use their own suicides and the conscipted suicides of ideologically brainwashed "believers" to inflict mass casualties on innocent non-combatant civilian lives, holding crystalline clear as justification their own self-righteous blessing from their warped vision of what constitutes a higher being.
  17. #37  
    And they shoudl be eradicated without prejudice and without the slightest wavering from principle and duty.
  18. NRG
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       #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    I vote this thread "stupid thread of the day".

    nrg, why don't you throw in "President Bush hates blacks, latinos, muslims, etc"?
    You know why I brought this thread to life? Just to show how silly it was for the right yelling about Flip Flop and all that other Jazz during the elections. It is flip flop when the left does it, but safety when the right does it, what is that word I am looking for?
    Hyp......
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    It is flip flop when the left does it, but safety when the right does it, what is that word I am looking for?
    Uh, what? Bush has been (unfuriatingly, for the left) consistent on how enemy combatants are to be treated.
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  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    ..........(d) Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment Defined.--In this section, the term ``cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment'' means the cruel, unusual, and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, as defined in the United States Reservations, Declarations and Understandings to the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Forms of Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment done at New York, December 10, 1984. "

    The senate intends to grant constitutional rights to terrorists.

    This means no sleep deprivation. No changing the meal schedules. No stress positions. Not even a love tap to get their attention.
    1911sforever - It gets even worse. From The UN convention referenced:
    CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE
    ..........
    Part I
    Article 1
    1. For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
    ..........
    Article 2
    ..........
    2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
    ..........
    So if we have reason to believe a prisoner has information about a nuke that is set to go off in NYC we can't do a d@mn thing about it. It appears simple intimidation would be a violation. That's what our Senate wants?
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