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  1. NRG
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       #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    Which would reduce the value of your house. If you were truly interested in the environment, you'd oppose drilling everywhere, not just in your backyard.
    I am not against drilling on land. This is just my backyard. I grew up on the water, fishing, boating, jet skiing, snorkeling, scalloping, swimming, diving, etc. and I don't want it ruined. I oppose it for the same reason I would not advocate a oil tanker port in the Keys.
  2. NRG
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       #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    That's not true at all, and you know it. Besides, what's the biggest draw in Florida? Orlando, I think. That would require one heck of a spill.
    Um, my dear Texan friend you might want to study this subject a little better. Yes, Orlando is a big draw but so are the beaches. It is not just kids that come to FL you know. Our Gulf coast as whole draws more visitors than all of Orlando.
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Here ya go.
    Great. A three day trend it our friend

    There are now over 300,000,000 million people in this country. In 20 years or less there will probably be another 50 million omre. All of these people need to go places and buy things. Petroleum is THE product that faciliates these necessary activities. We either produce it domestically, or we buy it from foreign sources. A lot of those overseas petrodollars have come back to bite us, hard.

    Bottom line is that your little slice of heaven will have some bumps on the horizon. There may be an accident...your property value may only go up 15% this year. Suck. It. Up.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Here ya go.
    Thanks, but this demonstrates the age-old connection between increase in price and decrease in demand. There hasn't been a demonstrated decrease in supply causing this decrease in demand.
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  5. NRG
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       #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Great. A three day trend it our friend

    There are now over 300,000,000 million people in this country. In 20 years or less there will probably be another 50 million omre. All of these people need to go places and buy things. Petroleum is THE product that faciliates these necessary activities. We either produce it domestically, or we buy it from foreign sources. A lot of those overseas petrodollars have come back to bite us, hard.

    Bottom line is that your little slice of heaven will have some bumps on the horizon. There may be an accident...your property value may only go up 15% this year. Suck. It. Up.
    There ya go. Let's try and get of the teet, instead of sucking it harder.
  6. NRG
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       #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Thanks, but this demonstrates the age-old connection between increase in price and decrease in demand. There hasn't been a demonstrated decrease in supply causing this decrease in demand.
    Right, when there is less oil price goes up.
  7. NRG
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       #87  
    Hey folks I will catch up with ya later! Hockey calls.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    There ya go. Let's try and get of the teet, instead of sucking it harder.
    That's just it...unlike momma there is only one teat to be had here.

    How much pain are you willing to inflict on the nation to faciliate this switch, and what, exactly, will we be switching to?
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Right, when there is less oil price goes up.
    Except the major problem is more an increase in demand (China, India... I'm in Corporate Purchasing so we watch this...) instead of a decrease in supply.

    My point is that when a commodity becomes more scarce, demand does not follow it. Demand only drops off when the commodity is non-existent which may be this commodity's problem some day.
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  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Um, my dear Texan friend you might want to study this subject a little better. Yes, Orlando is a big draw but so are the beaches. It is not just kids that come to FL you know. Our Gulf coast as whole draws more visitors than all of Orlando.
    Please name a single beach that has been ruined by an oil spill, let alone one the size of Florida's gulf coast. I am not saying they aren't expensive, dirty and really ugly, but in time, nature reclaims what man has screwed up.
  11. #91  
    Hey NRG.......

    So your "pissed" about a oil rig going in off of "your" coast. You probably wouldn't be aware of it after a few weeks. Complaining about it is pretty pointless since everything you do, touch or consume everyday is attached to oil in some way. It seems like you would be happier if the possibilty of pollution would happen in someone elses neighborhood.

    Riding a bycicle would be out of the question, since the tires that are made from oil would have to be replaced evenually.

    Maybe we should all grow our own food, build a fire in the house to cook with, heat it and to illuminate it at night. And use carrier pidgeons to communicate with each other. Reverting back to the stone age is a good solution, right?

    So I say keep that oil pumping untill a nationwide alternative can be realized.

    Chuck
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    From the link you posted:

    How is Hydrogen Made?


    Today the two most common methods used to produce hydrogen are:

    * steam reforming of natural gas
    * electrolysis of water.

    The predominant method for producing synthesis gas is steam reforming of natural gas, although other hydrocarbons can be used as feedstocks. For example, biomass and coal can be gasified and used in a steam reforming process to create hydrogen.

    Electrolysis uses electrical energy to split water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen. The electrical energy can come from any electricity production source including renewable fuels.

    Learn more about hydrogen production methods from the Hydrogen, Fuel Cells, and Infrastructure Technologies Program Web site's Hydrogen Basics page.
    ----------------------

    Which of these methods produces H2 without a net expenditure of energy? If you are thinking of using renewable sources of energy (Wind, geothermal etc) to produce H2, forget it. There isn't enough of it out there to meet the planet's energy needs.

    The best H2 can do is make the generation of energy at a more controlled source, less polluting (at the plants producing H2). Then, H2 needs to be transported and converted back to energy by direct combustion or fuel cells. This is more efficient and non-polluting at the location where H2 is being converted back to energy.

    Bottom like: You need energy to produce H2. After transportation and reconversion back to energy, you'll have a net loss of energy. Otherwise, one can build a perpetual source of energy machine ((Use H2 to make more H2))..violating the 3rd law of thermodynamics.

    That's why I said .. H2 is a way of transporting energy, not a way of producing energy.
    Incorrect.... But all energy sources created at one pont require energy to make, so your point isn't valid.

    That's why I said .. H2 is a way of transporting energy, not a way of producing energy.[/
    Last edited by dlbrummels; 10/05/2005 at 03:56 PM.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    One is interested in the greater of mankind, one is interested in company profit. If you need to read a little more, and I suggest you do you can go here.
    So one has to wonder (at least I do), do you run two imaging clinics and a magazine for the good of mankind or for a profit? I am gonna guess the latter because the former doesn't buy many bmw's.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
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    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    Incorrect.... But all energy sources created at one pont require energy to make, so your point isn't valid.

    That's why I said .. H2 is a way of transporting energy, not a way of producing energy.[/
    All sources of energy derive either from the sun, earth's core, or from the energy inherent in the mass (E=mc^2).

    Energy from the sun can be in real-time (Solar panels) or stored (photosynthesis->plants and animals->coal and oil). The mass energy is usable only for unstable substances (uranium, plutonium, thorium etc).

    All sources of energy need some expenditure but in every case, the payoff from releasing STORED energy is greater. Think about it: if it took nore energy to produce a joule of energy, you wouldn't do it on a macroscopic scale (you might in limited cases where portability is important, eg batteries).

    Back to H2. The mass energy of H2 is not available (it does not undergo thermonuclear decay) unless some cold-fusion or something NEW is discovered. There is no source of H2 that taps into STORED energy from the sun or earth's core.

    So, unless we discover vast source of underground H2 stored from farts from animals eons ago there is NO known process thet will produce a net amount of energy from H2. The energy required to generate H2 will always be greater than the energy released at the point of use of H2.

    Look into it. Just responding with one word "Incorrect" doesn't cut it.
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  15. #95  
    Your post is not backed by science just your ramblings.

    Hydrogen can be produced from diverse domestic feedstocks using a variety of process technologies. Hydrogen-containing compounds such as fossil fuels, biomass or even water can be a source of hydrogen. Thermochemical processes can be used to produce hydrogen from biomass and from fossil fuels such as coal, natural gas and petroleum. Power generated from sunlight, wind and nuclear sources can be used to produce hydrogen electrolytically. Sunlight alone can also drive photolytic production of hydrogen from water, using advanced photoelectrochemical and photobiological processes.

    Hydrogen from Natural Gas

    The Offices of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy (EERE) and Fossil Energy (FE) are working to reduce the cost of producing hydrogen via steam methane reforming. EERE is focused on distributed hydrogen production from natural gas and bio-derived liquid feedstocks and FE is focused on sub-centralized and centralized hydrogen production. Although hydrogen from natural gas is certainly a viable near-term option, it is not viewed by DOE as a long-term solution because it does not help solve the green house gas (GHG) or energy security issues.


    Hydrogen from Coal

    Research sponsored by the Office of Fossil Energy is focused on advancing the technologies needed to produce hydrogen from coal-derived synthesis gas and to build and operate a zero emissions, high-efficiency co-production power plant that will produce hydrogen from coal along with electricity. FE is also investigating carbon sequestration technologies, in associated programs, as an option for managing and stabilizing greenhouse gas emissions from coal-fired plants.

    Hydrogen from Nuclear Power

    Research sponsored by the Office of Nuclear Energy, Science and Technology (NE) is focused on developing the commercial-scale production of hydrogen using heat from a nuclear energy system. Key research areas include high-temperature thermochemical cycles, high-temperature electrolysis, and reactor/process interface issues.


    Hydrogen from Renewable Resources

    Research sponsored by EERE is focused on developing advanced technologies for producing hydrogen from domestic renewable energy resources that minimize environmental impacts. Key research areas include electrolysis, thermochemical conversion of biomass, photolytic and fermentative micro-organism systems, photoelectrochemical systems, and high-temperature chemical cycle

    Basic Research

    In Office of Science's basic research program, a major emphasis will be placed on fundamental understanding of photoinduced water splitting that uses the energy of sunlight to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen by semiconductors or photocatalytic assemblies. To enable more efficient, lower-cost fossil-based hydrogen production, fundamental research in catalysis, membranes, and gas separation will be emphasized.

    Conversion/Fuel Cells

    Fuel cells are one of the key enabling technologies for a future hydrogen economy. They have the potential to replace the internal combustion engine in vehicles and to provide power in stationary and portable power applications because they are energy-efficient, clean, and fuel-flexible. For transportation applications, DOE is focusing on direct hydrogen fuel cells, in which on-board storage of hydrogen is supplied by a hydrogen generation, delivery, and fueling infrastructure. For distributed generation fuel cell applications, the program focuses on near-term fuel cell systems running on natural gas or liquid petroleum gas and recognizes the longer term potential for systems running on renewable/alternate fuels. In addition to the transportation fuel cell application focus (i.e. direct hydrogen fuel cell vehicles) to reduce our nation's dependence on imported petroleum, the program also supports stationary, portable power and auxiliary power applications in a limited fashion where earlier market entry would assist in the development of a fuel cell manufacturing base.

    This DOE Hydrogen Program activity is focused on the conversion of hydrogen to electrical or thermal power and the use of hydrogen to power vehicles via polymer electrolyte membrane (PEM) fuel cells, for auxiliary power units on vehicles, or for stationary applications. Phosphoric acid, Molten Carbonate Fuel Cell (MCFC), and Solid Oxide Fuel Cell (SOFC) R&D is also underway within DOE, although not directly under the Hydrogen Fuel Initiative since these technologies have a stronger tie to stationary usage than transportation.

    PEM Polymer Electrolyte Membrane (PEM) Fuel Cells

    The Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy is working to lower the cost and improve the durability of PEM fuel cells. Current R&D activities focus on improving electrocatalysts, membranes (both for ambient and high-temperature applications), and biopolar plate materials.

    Basic Research

    In Office of Science's basic research program, the emphasis will be on defining the knowledge that enables new and novel materials to transcend the barriers for low-cost and high efficiency energy conversion applications. New and improved materials need to be developed for electrodes, electrolytes, membranes, and catalysts to enable new and novel fuel cell components and operating concepts.

    Applications/Technology Validation

    Eventually hydrogen will join electricity as the major energy carrier, supplying every end-use energy need in the economy, including transportation, central and distributed electric power, portable power, and combined heat and power for buildings and industrial processes. But today, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (FCVs) are currently in the pre-production stage of development, and the infrastructure to refuel them does not currently exist. The DOE Hydrogen Program is sponsoring a variety of projects to demonstrate the technical and economic feasibility of integrated hydrogen and fuel cell systems in real-world situations that are consistent with early transition strategies.

    This DOE Hydrogen Program activity is focused on field tests and evaluation of hydrogen and fuel cell technologies, and technical validation of integrated systems in real-world environments.

    Technology Validation

    The Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy is sponsoring "learning demonstrations" to build and evaluate complete system solutions that address all elements of infrastructure and vehicle technology, validating integrated hydrogen and fuel cell technologies for transportation, infrastructure, and electric generation in a systems context under real-world operating conditions. Data will be collected to determine whether targets have been met under realistic operating conditions, to provide feedback on progress, and to efficiently manage the research elements of the program and provide redirection as needed. The Office of Fossil Energy is also conducting demonstration and validation activities regarding hydrogen and hydrogen-natural gas mixtures in advanced engines, such as homogeneously charged compression ignition (HCCI) engines.
    Last edited by dlbrummels; 10/05/2005 at 07:00 PM.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by chckhbrt
    ...And use carrier pidgeons to communicate with each other. Reverting back to the stone age is a good solution, right?
    Hey, what's wrong with pigeon-based communication?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1321176.stm
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  17. #97  
    Anyone know why this thread (only this thread) is displaying really w i d e in Firefox (Safari as well)? I have to scroll side ways to read anything. Usually it's because of a graphic... I don't see any.
    Current: iPhone 3G
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  18. #98  
    Build more nuclear power plants; use less fossil fuel, price of oil will drop with demand, gas will be reasonable again. Nuclear power is the answer!
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  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    Your post is not backed by science just your ramblings.

    Hydrogen can be produced from diverse domestic feedstocks using a variety of process technologies. Hydrogen-containing compounds such as fossil fuels, biomass or even water can be a source of hydrogen. Thermochemical processes can be used to produce hydrogen from biomass and from fossil fuels such as coal, natural gas and petroleum. Power generated from sunlight, wind and nuclear sources can be used to produce hydrogen electrolytically. Sunlight alone can also drive photolytic production of hydrogen from water, using advanced photoelectrochemical and photobiological processes.
    I fully concede that H2 can be created using fossil fuels and nuclear fuels. I said as much. The process of (creating H2 from fossil fuels) -> (using that H2 in fuel cells) is more efficient than the current process of burning fossil fuels.

    The presumtion is that we'll run out of fossil fuels because of the ever increasing rate of energy usage by the planet. The known nuclear fuel reservers are also limited.

    The bottom line is (PLEASE address this instead of quoting details on generating and using H2): It will take more energy, fossil and/or nuclear, to generate a pound of H2 that you'll get out of a fuel cell by using that pound of H2.

    In no way is H2 a SOURCE of energy.

    As for renewables, studies have shown that wind and solar energy doesn't have the energy density to replace the current dependence on fossil+nuclear fuels. Vast areas of the surface of the earth will have to be covered by solar cells to generate the equivalent of current and expected rate of consumption of fossil fuels (which are nothing but solar energy from the past..)
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  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I've read otherwise could you please cite so I can read it.
    Can't vouch for all of the content, but here are a few sources for you from a quick Google of Ethanol:

    http://www.energyjustice.net/ethanol/
    http://magazine.audubon.org/incite/incite0408.html
    http://www.junkscience.com/news2/ethanol.htm
    http://www.impactlab.com/modules.php...ticle&sid=5892

    I live in a county that has a 10% ethanol mandate, and I can also tell you it reduces my own gas mileage by 2-3 MPG. This is a common experience.

    After reading this stuff, consider that we just blew millions on more subsidies for the crap in the recent transportation bill.

    Hope you enjoyed the hockey game!
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