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  1. NRG
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       #121  
    I also wanted to add the FEC's website. Search for Jack Abramoff and see how many Dems turn up. Happy Hunting

    http://www.fec.gov/finance/disclosure/norindsea.shtml
  2. NRG
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       #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Unfortunately too many people believe that graphic is the truth. If it is the party I align myself with it is OK, if it is the other party it has to be wrong.
    Seach the FEC website yourself. Link above.
  3. NRG
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       #123  
    Thought I would add this too!

    From the Fereal Election Commission: Please pay attention to all those Rs and notice the lack of Ds for the willfully blind:

    Donor: Abramoff, Jack A. & Pamela

    Recipient Donor Total Cycle

    Frank A. LoBiondo (R-NJ) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela ($1,000) 2006
    Eric Cantor (R-Va) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $8,000 2004

    Republican Majority Fund, Leadership PAC of Don Nickles (R-Okla) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $5,000 2004

    Rich PAC, Leadership PAC of Richard Pombo (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $5,000 2004
    Americans for a Republican Majority, Leadership PAC of Tom DeLay (R-Texas) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $5,000 2004

    Arlen Specter (R-Pa) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $4,000 2004
    George W. Bush (R) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $4,000 2004
    John Ensign (R-Nev) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $4,000 2004
    Johnny Isakson (R-Ga) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $4,000 2004

    Keep Our Majority PAC, Leadership PAC of Dennis Hastert (R-Ill) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,500 2004

    Charles H. Taylor (R-NC) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2004
    Chris Cannon (R-Utah) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2004
    Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2004
    Mark Foley (R-Fla) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2004

    Leadership PAC 2004, Leadership PAC of Michael G. Oxley (R-Ohio) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2004

    Richard Pombo (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2004
    Senate Victory Fund, Leadership PAC of Thad Cochran (R-Miss) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2004
    Christopher S. 'Kit' Bond (R-Mo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,500 2004
    Curt Weldon (R-Pa) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
    Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
    Doug Ose (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
    Ernest J. Istook (R-Okla) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
    George R. Nethercutt Jr. (R-Wash) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
    Jim Bunning (R-Ky) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
    Richard C. Shelby (R-Ala) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
    Rely on Your Beliefs, Leadership PAC of Roy Blunt (R-Mo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
    Tom DeLay (R-Texas) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004
    Tom Feeney (R-Fla) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2004

    Americans for a Republican Majority, Leadership PAC of Tom DeLay (R-Texas) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $10,000 2002
    Friends of the Big Sky, Leadership PAC of Conrad Burns (R-Mont) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $5,000 2002
    Republican Party of New Jersey Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $5,000 2002
    Senate Victory Fund, Leadership PAC of Thad Cochran (R-Miss) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $5,000 2002

    Dan Burton (R-Ind) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $3,000 2002
    Eric Cantor (R-Va) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $3,000 2002
    Suzanne Terrell (R-La) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $3,000 2002

    American Liberty PAC, Leadership PAC of Bob Ney (R-Ohio) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,500 2002

    Rob Simmons (R-Conn) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,250 2002
    Charles W. "Chip" Pickering Jr. (R-Miss) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2002
    Connie Morella (R-Md) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2002
    Gordon H. Smith (R-Ore) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2002
    James M. Inhofe (R-Okla) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2002
    James M. Talent (R-Mo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2002
    John T. Doolittle (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2002
    John Thune (R-SD) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2002
    Tim Hutchinson (R-Ark) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2002
    Tom DeLay (R-Texas) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2002
    Bob Smith (R-Fla) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,240 2002
    Bob Ney (R-Ohio) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    C. L. "Butch" Otter (R-Idaho) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    Carolyn W. Grant (R-NC) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    Denny Rehberg (R-Mont) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    Elizabeth Dole (R-NC) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    Frank A. LoBiondo (R-NJ) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    Heather Wilson (R-NM) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    J. Randy Forbes (R-Va) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    Jack Kingston (R-Ga) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    James V. Hansen (R-Utah) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    John Cornyn (R-Texas) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    Battle Born PAC, Leadership PAC of John Ensign (R-Nev) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    Kimo Kaloi (R-Hawaii) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    Marilyn Musgrave (R-Colo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    Mike Ferguson (R-NJ) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    Mike Simpson (R-Idaho) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    Ralph Regula (R-Ohio) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    Ric Keller (R-Fla) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002

    Rely on Your Beliefs, Leadership PAC of Roy Blunt (R-Mo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002

    Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
    Ted Stevens (R-Alaska) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    Thad Cochran (R-Miss) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2002
    Dave Camp (R-Mich) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2002
    Phil Gingrey (R-Ga) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2002
    Tom Young (R-Ala) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2002
    Bill Janklow (R-SD) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $250 2002

    Rely on Your Beliefs, Leadership PAC of Roy Blunt (R-Mo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $6,500 2000
    Americans for a Republican Majority, Leadership PAC of Tom DeLay (R-Texas) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $4,000 2000

    Tom DeLay (R-Texas) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $4,000 2000

    Fund for a Free Market America, Leadership PAC of Phil Crane (R-Ill) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,750 2000

    Bob Ney (R-Ohio) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
    Craig Thomas (R-Wyo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
    Dan Burton (R-Ind) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
    Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
    Eric Cantor (R-Va) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
    George W. Bush (R) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
    John Ashcroft (R-Mo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
    John T. Doolittle (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
    Spencer Abraham (R-Mich) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
    William L. Gormley (R-NJ) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $2,000 2000
    Bill McCollum (R-Fla) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
    Bill Redmond (R-NM) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
    Bob Riley (R-Ala) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
    C. L. "Butch" Otter (R-Idaho) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
    Claude B. Hutchison Jr. (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
    Denny Rehberg (R-Mont) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
    Francis E. Flotron (R-Mo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
    George Allen (R-Va) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
    Team PAC, Leadership PAC of J. D. Hayworth (R-Ariz) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
    Mike Enzi (R-Wyo) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
    Walter B. Jones Jr. (R-NC) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $1,000 2000
    Paul Ryan (R-Wis) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $949 2000
    Bob Smith (R-Fla) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $920 2000
    Joe Pitts (R-Pa) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $894 2000
    Charles H. Taylor (R-NC) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $750 2000
    Bob Ehrlich (R-Md) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2000
    Charles R. Gerow (R-Pa) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2000
    Charles W. "Chip" Pickering Jr. (R-Miss) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2000
    Ed Royce (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2000
    Elia Vincent Pirozzi (R-Calif) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2000
    Jerry Weller (R-Ill) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2000
    Mark Emerson (R-Utah) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2000
    Tom Davis (R-Va) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2000
    Van Hilleary (R-Tenn) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $500 2000
    Rick A. Lazio (R-NY) Abramoff, Jack A & Pamela $250 2000

    http://www.capitaleye.org/abramoff_donor.asp

    PS: Even these direct donations from Abramoff would be legal, so long as there was no 'quid pro quo'.

    The tribes gave perfectly legal donations to the Democrats and to Republicans. The tribes were Abramoff's victims, he stole from them. The media, by claiming that 'Abramoff's clients' gave to Demcorats as though it were a crime, are smearing the victims. Some of the tribes' leaders have already spoken out about this.

    One more thing, the tribes, after hiring Abramoff as a lobbyist REDUCED their normal donations to Democrats.

    Again for the willfully blind who might, if they were interested, ask the obvious question:

    How many Democrats have been indicted, arrested, charged or convicted or are currently under investigation in the Abramoff affairs?

    I checked and so far, haven't found any, but here's the list I was able to find and guess what, they're ALL REPUBLICANS. I didn't include those who have been mentioned as possibly in jeopardy, like Bush himself, for firing Black the prosecuter in Guam who was investigating Abramoff there, which stopped that investigation. Hopefully Bush will explain that 'coincidence' to us sometime in the future. Or, I know this is a dream, maybe our free press will investigate that story for us.



    ...........



    Convicted through guilty pleas:

    Republican ~ Kidan ~ Abramoff partner
    Republican ~ Scanlon ~ Abramoff partner
    Republican ~ Abramoff ~ Top Republican Lobbyist
    Republican ~ Duke Cunningham ~ pled guilty to crimes separate from the Abramoff affairs, but now thought to be inplicated in the Abramoff affairs.

    Three mafia hitmen: Arrested and charged for the Florida murder of Gus Boulis, business associate of Kidan and Abramoff in the purchase of Suncruz Casinos. The three accused men received large sums of money as business consultants of Abramoff partner, Kidan. Kidan has been a suspect in this case, although no charges have been filed against him, yet.

    Also arrested and charged in the Abramoff, Republican scandal:

    Republican ~ Safavian ~ White House official.

    Told they are targets of the investigation:

    Republican ~ Congressman Tom Delay and his wife.
    Republican ~ Rudy, aide to Tom Delay.
    Republican ~ Congressman Bob Ney, and at least one aide.

    Under suspicion and/or investigation:

    Republican ~ Griles, assist. to Gale Norton in the Dept. of the Interior
    Republican Dept. of the Interior employees, several of whom took the 5th at the Senate hearings.
    Republican ~ Sen. Conrad Burns and former aide (both deny any wrongdoing)
    Republican ~ Sen. Cornyn (he denies any wrongdoing)
    Republican Christian Fundamentalist ~ Ralph Reed
    Republican strategist ~ Grover Norquist, (Abramoff's Reed's and Kidan's mentor when they were Young Republicans in their college years).


    This is just a conservative (pardon the pun) list of those under suspicion. It can be added to. I tried, but I couldn't find a single Democrat so far who is seriously being looked at for being involved, criminally, in Abramoff's schemes. It could happen, but it hasn't yet, despite the media and RNC spin.
  4. cardio's Avatar
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    #124  
    I should know better

    40 Of The 45 Members Of The Senate Democrat Caucus:

    Senator Max Baucus (D-MT) Received At Least – $22,500

    Senator Evan Bayh (D-IN) Received At Least – $6,500

    Senator Joseph Biden (D-DE) Received At Least – $1,250

    Senator Jeff Bingaman (D-NM) Received At Least – $2,000

    Senator Barbara Boxer (D-CA) Received At Least – $20,250

    Senator Maria Cantwell (D-WA) Received At Least – $21,765

    Senator Tom Carper (D-DE) Received At Least – $7,500

    Senator Hillary Clinton (D-NY) Received At Least – $12,950

    Senator Kent Conrad (D-ND) Received At Least – $8,000

    Senator Jon Corzine (D-NJ) Received At Least – $7,500

    Senator Chris Dodd (D-CT) Received At Least – $14,792

    Senator Byron Dorgan (D-ND) Received At Least – $79,300

    Senator **** Durbin (D-IL) Received At Least – $14,000

    Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) Received At Least – $2,000

    Senator Russ Feingold (D-WI) Received At Least – $1,250

    Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) Received At Least – $45,750

    Senator Daniel Inouye (D-HI) Received At Least – $9,000

    Senator Jim Jeffords (I-VT) Received At Least – $2,000

    Senator Tim Johnson (D-SD) Received At Least – $14,250

    Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) Received At Least – $3,300

    Senator John Kerry (D-MA) Received At Least – $98,550

    Senator Mary Landrieu (D-LA) Received At Least – $28,000

    Senator Pat Leahy (D-VT) Received At Least – $4,000

    Senator Carl Levin (D-MI) Received At Least – $6,000

    Senator Joe Lieberman (D-CT) Received At Least – $29,830

    Senator Blanche Lincoln (D-AR) Received At Least – $14,891

    Senator Barbara Mikulski (D-MD) Received At Least – $10,550

    Senator Patty Murray (D-WA) Received At Least – $78,991

    Senator Bill Nelson (D-FL) Received At Least – $20,168

    Senator Ben Nelson (D-NE) Received At Least – $5,200

    Senator Barack Obama (D-IL) Received At Least – $7,500

    Senator Mark Pryor (D-AR) Received At Least – $2,300

    Senator Jack Reed (D-RI) Received At Least – $3,500

    Senator Harry Reid (D-NV) Received At Least – $68,941

    Senator John Rockefeller (D-WV) Received At Least – $4,000

    Senator Ken Salazar (D-CO) Received At Least – $4,500

    Senator Paul Sarbanes (D-MD) Received At Least – $4,300

    Senator Chuck Schumer (D-NY) Received At Least – $29,550

    Senator Debbie Stabenow (D-MI) Received At Least – $6,250

    Senator Ron Wyden (D-OR) Received At Least – $6,250

    But alas I fall inot your trap.
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  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    notice the lack of Ds for the willfully blind:
    You have a fascinating definition of "willfully blind" since it is you that is only seeing scandal amongst Republicans and not amongst your pure-as-the-driven-snow Dems.

    Abramoff not only gave a lot of money - he also directed his clients to give a lot of money.

    "Willfully blind", indeed.
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  6. NRG
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       #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I should know better

    40 Of The 45 Members Of The Senate Democrat Caucus:

    Senator Max Baucus (D-MT) Received At Least – $22,500

    Senator Evan Bayh (D-IN) Received At Least – $6,500

    Senator Joseph Biden (D-DE) Received At Least – $1,250

    Senator Jeff Bingaman (D-NM) Received At Least – $2,000

    Senator Barbara Boxer (D-CA) Received At Least – $20,250

    Senator Maria Cantwell (D-WA) Received At Least – $21,765

    Senator Tom Carper (D-DE) Received At Least – $7,500

    Senator Hillary Clinton (D-NY) Received At Least – $12,950

    Senator Kent Conrad (D-ND) Received At Least – $8,000

    Senator Jon Corzine (D-NJ) Received At Least – $7,500

    Senator Chris Dodd (D-CT) Received At Least – $14,792

    Senator Byron Dorgan (D-ND) Received At Least – $79,300

    Senator **** Durbin (D-IL) Received At Least – $14,000

    Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) Received At Least – $2,000

    Senator Russ Feingold (D-WI) Received At Least – $1,250

    Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) Received At Least – $45,750

    Senator Daniel Inouye (D-HI) Received At Least – $9,000

    Senator Jim Jeffords (I-VT) Received At Least – $2,000

    Senator Tim Johnson (D-SD) Received At Least – $14,250

    Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) Received At Least – $3,300

    Senator John Kerry (D-MA) Received At Least – $98,550

    Senator Mary Landrieu (D-LA) Received At Least – $28,000

    Senator Pat Leahy (D-VT) Received At Least – $4,000

    Senator Carl Levin (D-MI) Received At Least – $6,000

    Senator Joe Lieberman (D-CT) Received At Least – $29,830

    Senator Blanche Lincoln (D-AR) Received At Least – $14,891

    Senator Barbara Mikulski (D-MD) Received At Least – $10,550

    Senator Patty Murray (D-WA) Received At Least – $78,991

    Senator Bill Nelson (D-FL) Received At Least – $20,168

    Senator Ben Nelson (D-NE) Received At Least – $5,200

    Senator Barack Obama (D-IL) Received At Least – $7,500

    Senator Mark Pryor (D-AR) Received At Least – $2,300

    Senator Jack Reed (D-RI) Received At Least – $3,500

    Senator Harry Reid (D-NV) Received At Least – $68,941

    Senator John Rockefeller (D-WV) Received At Least – $4,000

    Senator Ken Salazar (D-CO) Received At Least – $4,500

    Senator Paul Sarbanes (D-MD) Received At Least – $4,300

    Senator Chuck Schumer (D-NY) Received At Least – $29,550

    Senator Debbie Stabenow (D-MI) Received At Least – $6,250

    Senator Ron Wyden (D-OR) Received At Least – $6,250

    But alas I fall inot your trap.
    Ah, Cardio, where are these donations from and could I have a source please. Thanks
  7. NRG
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       #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    You have a fascinating definition of "willfully blind" since it is you that is only seeing scandal amongst Republicans and not amongst your pure-as-the-driven-snow Dems.

    Abramhof not only gave a lot of money - he also directed his clients to give a lot of money.

    "Willfully blind", indeed.
    So show me where the Dems had recieved money from Abramoff.
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    So show me where the Dems had recieved money from Abramoff.
    Show me where Al Capone personally ever killed anyone.

    Please re-read my post a little more closely.
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       #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Show me where Al Capone personally ever killed anyone.

    Please re-read my post a little more closely.
    His clients giving it to the Dems is completely legal, right?
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    #130  
    these "hear no evil, see no evil" dems are a fascinating bunch. truly. what better amusement can there be but to watch these folks try convincing themselves that other people are actually believing their bull**** here! lol.
    Last edited by vw2002; 01/28/2006 at 05:02 PM.
  11. #131  
    I havent really followed this story all that much (other than Abramoff accepting a plea). I am not convinced that there arent politicians on both sides of the aisle that are caught up in this (or will be when its all done).
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  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    His clients giving it to the Dems is completely legal, right?
    I don't know for sure whether it was or was not. You seem pretty convinced, though.
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  13. NRG
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       #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I don't know for sure whether it was or was not. You seem pretty convinced, though.
    It is legal as long as there is no 'quid pro'.
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    It is legal as long as there is no 'quid pro'.
    Sorry. I fail to see the practical difference between money given by Abramoff and money given by tribes at Abramoff's direction. It's a nice fig leaf for the Dems to use, but really - what's the difference?
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  15. #135  
    Maybe one implication of having another give money on your behalf would be that it is harder to prove vs. giving it yourself?
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  16. NRG
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       #136  
    I not quite too sure what to make of it, but it is another carrot to add to the stew.

    http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?...rticleId=10924
  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    That Bush is not up to the challenge is the view of the majority of the US citizens (presently, 52% say his presidency is a failure), so I am in good company: Poll results
    I would have to look up the exact numbers.....but I do believe Clinton had right around the same approval (or disaproval) ratings during his 5th year in office.

    Is Clinton just as bad a President in your view since he had the same polls as during the same time in his adminstration?

    Or, did the approval ratings not matter much with Pres Clinton?

    EDIT: Here is a little perspective on the situation:

    Bush, Congress slip in latest poll

    By Charles M. Madigan
    Tribune national correspondent
    Published January 18, 2006, 3:10 PM CST


    President George Bush's sixth year in office begins Thursday and a new Gallup analysis says public opinion about the president has been at a low point over the past 12 months.

    The job rating for Congress is in decline, too, with 67 percent of the people disapproving.

    Gallup analyst Jeffrey M. Jones reports Bush's approval rating slipped to 37 percent in November, a new personal low that has dragged his overall approval rating for the last 12 months to 43 percent.

    Bush's approval rating had shown some improvement as 2005 ended and stayed in the low 40 percent range for most of December. His fifth-year average was 45.8 percent, which ranks him close to President Bill Clinton's 46 percent approval rating during 1994 to 1995. Bush's father had a lower approval rating in 1992 to 93, at 41 percent.

    The Gallup Poll has been collecting data on presidential approval since the Truman presidency. Of the 63 presidential years that have passed in that time, Bush's fifth year ranks as No. 48 on the list.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...ck=1&cset=true
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 01/30/2006 at 04:54 PM.
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    So show me where the Dems had recieved money from Abramoff.
    NRG....I listed several points earlier that you said you agreed were valid points:

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    My first couple thoughts:

    1) Dean is a shoot from the hip kind of guy that has tended to exagerate or lean facts to prove a point....which has earned him some criticism from fellow Dems in the recent past.

    2) First of all this is an on going investigation. There may be more or less Dems added to the list. I think that also the Washington Post would be interested in seeing how their current investigation is fraudulent and false.

    3) He used clever language like: "There's no evidence that I've seen that Jack Abramoff directed any contributions to Democrats". This is a plausable deniability statement, IMHO.

    4) If Deans statements are taken at face value why then have significant number of Dems return tens of or hundreds of thousands dollars back to the tribes that according to Dean had no relationship with Jack in the very least? That seems like it could be perceived like a got caught with the hand in the cookie jar type of action.

    5) I also found it interesting to watch the interviewer look bewildered and unbelieving with Dean repeatedly saying no Dem had any part whatsoever with Jack.
    Then you turn around and post.....show me where a Dem could be involved.

    Okay....I will take it step by step in a little more detail...

    First of all this is an on going investigation
    I don't think anyone disagrees that there are more Reps involved in this than there are Dems. But since this is an ON GOING investigation, Dems can be added and Dems can be removed from investigation. Here are a couple points that might relate to this:

    Democrats Also Got Tribal Donations
    Among the biggest beneficiaries were Capitol Hill's most powerful Democrats, including Thomas A. Daschle (S.D.) and Harry M. Reid (Nev.), the top two Senate Democrats at the time, Richard A. Gephardt (Mo.), then-leader of the House Democrats, and the two lawmakers in charge of raising funds for their Democratic colleagues in both chambers, according to a Washington Post study.

    ----------

    Of the 18 largest recipients of tribe contributions directed by Abramoff's group, six, or one-third, were Democrats. These included Sen. Patty Murray (Wash.), who chaired the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee from 2001 to 2002, and Sen. Byron L. Dorgan (N.D.), a leader in Indian affairs legislation.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...060202158.html
    Some of these very specific points that have listed in this June article have been addressed since then, but many have not.....leading me to believe that it they are still points of investigation.

    Democrats Benefited from Abramoff Contributions, Too
    CNSNews.com Senior Editor
    January 05, 2006

    (CNSNews.com) - The National Republican Senatorial Committee said Wednesday that 40 of 45 members of the Senate Democrat Caucus have taken money from lobbyist Jack Abramoff, his associates and Indian tribe clients.

    Abramoff pled guilty Tuesday to conspiracy, fraud and tax evasion. He also plans to implicate a number of U.S. lawmakers and congressional staffers in a bribery scandal.

    Among those named by the NRSC as the worst examples of "Democrat hypocrisy" for taking money from Abramoff and his associates are: Sen. Byron Dorgan, (D-N.D.) who received at least $79,300; Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa), who received at least $45,750; Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.), who received at least $68,941 and Sen. Debbie Stabenow (D-Mich.), who received at least $6,250.

    Dorgan is among the lawmakers who have already returned campaign donations or given those donations to charity.

    http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics....20060105b.html
    This was released by the Reps, but from records from the Campaign Finance Analysis Project Website, www.campaignfinanceanalysisproject.com, Accessed December 7, 2005; Political Money Line Website, www.tray.com, Accessed December 7, 2005; Internal Revenue Service Website, www.irs.gov, Accessed April 21, 2005. Even though there is no doubt this is politically motivated to throw it back in the Dems face, if the sources are sound, it does beg the question of Dem involvement.


    Senator Reid (D-NV) Questioned on Abramoff Ties…
    Monday, January 23, 2006

    Mr. Reid received $30,500 from three Indian tribes for whom Abramoff lobbied in this election cycle, according to a reassessment of political contributions by the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics (CRP), which has compiled campaign funds given to lawmakers by Abramoff, his associates or clients he represented.” (Don Lambro, “Abramoff fallout follows Reid on red-state tour,” Washington Times, January 15, 2006)
    http://www.gopsenators.com/newsdesk/...e.aspx?ID=1495
    Harkin pays tribe for his use of skybox
    From The Hill
    Thursday, October 20, 2005

    Sen. Tom Harkin failed to account properly for two fundraisers he held in lobbyist Jack Abramoff’s skybox at Washington’s MCI Center in 2002 and 2003, according to filings with the Federal Election Commission (FEC) and a spokeswoman for the Iowa Democrat.

    Abramoff, the subject of multiple federal criminal probes for his dealings with Indian tribes and a Florida casino chain, routinely hosted political fundraisers in skyboxes at four sporting venues in the Washington area. Several members of Congress admitted earlier this year to having failed to disclose properly or pay for the use of the skyboxes.

    -------------------

    Harkin’s disclosure is the latest example that the expanding Abramoff scandal has the potential to ensnare a few Democrats the way it has many Republicans. Although Abramoff was a solidly Republican lobbyist with strong ties to conservative lawmakers, his staff at Greenberg Traurig included Democrats, many of whom worked with Democratic lawmakers on legislative issues and fundraisers.

    The Hill: http://www.gopsenators.com/newsdesk/...e.aspx?ID=1371

    Mostly Republicans (but not all)

    Between 2001 and 2004, Abramoff joined with his former partner, Michael Scanlon, and tribal clients to give money to a third of the members of Congress, including former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, according to records of the Federal Election Commission and Internal Revenue Service. At least 171 lawmakers got $1.4 million in campaign donations from the group. Republicans took in most of the money, with 110 lawmakers getting $942,275, or 66 percent of the total.

    Of the top 10 political donors among Indian tribes in that period, three are former clients of Abramoff and Scanlon: the Saginaw Chippewa Tribe of Michigan, the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians, and the Agua Caliente Band of Cahuilla Indians of California. All three gave most of their donations to Republicans -- by margins of 30 percentage points or more -- while the rest favored Democrats.

    Abramoff faces allegations that he bilked the casino-owning tribes out of millions of dollars and attempted to corrupt public officials. E-mails released by the Senate Indian Affairs Committee during a year of hearings offer evidence that he directed the tribes to donate funds to specific lawmakers.

    Continued to Give

    Abramoff's tribal clients continued to give money to Democrats even after he began representing them, although in smaller percentages than in the past.

    The Saginaw Chippewas gave $500,500 to Republicans between 2001 and 2004 and $277,210 to Democrats, according to a review of data compiled by Dwight L. Morris & Associates, a Bristow, Virginia-based company that tracks campaign-finance reports. Between 1997 and 2000, the tribe gave just $158,000 to Republicans and $279,000 to Democrats.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...cKJc&refer=us#

    DEMS GIVING MONEY BACK
    If they are innocent, then why are Dems giving money back that were legally given to them, if they have nothing to fear?

    Tribe: Abramoff Arranged Dorgan Donation
    WASHINGTON Nov 29, 2005 — New evidence is emerging that the top Democrat on the Senate committee currently investigating Jack Abramoff got political money arranged by the lobbyist back in 2002 shortly after the lawmaker took action favorable to Abramoff's tribal clients.

    -----------

    The revelation came as Dorgan took to the offensive Monday, saying there was no connection between the $20,000 in donations he got from Abramoff's firm and tribal clients in spring 2002 and a February 2002 letter he wrote urging the Senate Appropriations Committee to fund the tribal school building program.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1354456
    Dorgan Tangled in Abramoff Web
    Revelations about the activities of Jack Abramoff continue to cause discomfort for the many lawmakers who received meals, trips and campaign contributions from the former powerhouse GOP lobbyist.

    Democrats are hoping to capitalize on Republican ethical woes. But as The Washington Post reported in June, some prominent Democrats, including former senator Thomas A. Daschle (S.D.), Sens. Harry M. Reid (Nev.) and Byron L. Dorgan (N.D.), were among beneficiaries of the largest campaign contributions from Abramoff's associates and clients.

    ----------

    As the Associated Press reported last week, Dorgan had his own dealings with Abramoff's circle. Dorgan acknowledged to the AP that in the fall of 2003 he pushed Congress to approve legislative language urging government regulators to decide whether the Mashpee Wampanoag tribe of Massachusetts deserved federal recognition. About the same time, Dorgan met with the tribe's representatives and Michael D. Smith, an Abramoff associate.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...120401158.html
    Associated Press: Dorgan Used Arena Skybox Of Lobbyist
    From Associated Press
    Friday, December 02, 2005


    About 48 lawmakers
    Over the past month, the AP has reported that about four dozen lawmakers, Republicans and Democrats, collected donations from Abramoff's tribal clients and firm about the time they wrote letters to the Bush administration or Congress favorable to the tribes.

    Congressional ethics rules require lawmakers to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest in performing official duties and accepting political money. The Justice Department is investigating whether Abramoff, already charged with fraud, won any undue influence through donations and favors.

    --------------

    Used arena skybox

    Dorgan, however, benefited from the very arena skybox that has become a symbol of Abramoff's controversial efforts to win Washington influence, records show.

    The Choctaw tribe, an Abramoff client that was a primary focus of the Senate hearings, sponsored a fund-raiser March 28, 2001, for Dorgan's political group, the Great Plains Leadership Fund. The event treated Dorgan and his donors to a bird's-eye view of a professional hockey game from a skybox Abramoff leased in Washington's MCI Center, while lobbyists got the chance to bend his ear.

    Dorgan knew the fund-raiser was sponsored by the Choctaw and that two Abramoff lobbyists attended, but at the time he didn't know they were connected to Abramoff, his spokesman said. "He was told the skybox was the Choctaws'," Barry Piatt said.

    Dorgan didn't reimburse the tribe, instead reporting the event as an "in-kind" $1,800 tribal contribution without specifying it involved the skybox.

    Documents the Senate released show Abramoff charged the Choctaw $223,679 to underwrite use of the skybox in 2001, the year of Dorgan's fund-raiser, even though the tribe "very rarely" used it. Dorgan has denounced the fees as outrageous.

    Dorgan and his staff met several times with Abramoff's lobbying team, according to the lobbying firm's billing records.

    Investigators have information suggesting Dorgan and his staff may have had more than 20 contacts with Abramoff's lobbying team involving the Marianas, tribes and other clients over the years, said a person directly familiar with the investigation who spoke only on condition of anonymity because the probe continues. Piatt said Dorgan's office doesn't keep records of staff meetings but any notations in billing records shouldn't be trusted because Abramoff was fired from his firm over his billing practices.

    ------------------

    New money flowed into Dorgan's political coffers.

    The summer before the help, Smith sent three donations to Dorgan totaling $1,500 while a separate Abramoff client, the Saginaw Chippewa, sent Dorgan a total of $10,000. The Saginaw were interested in a second provision in the same Interior spending bill, inserted by Burns, that provided the tribe $3 million in school construction money.

    The spending bill was finalized Oct. 27, 2003, with both the Saginaw and Mashpee provisions.

    Six weeks later, Smith donated $5,000 to North Dakota Senate 2004, a joint fundraising committee set up to help Dorgan's re-election. Smith made a second $5,000 donation to the same Dorgan committee in February 2004, campaign reports show.

    http://www.gopsenators.com/newsdesk/...e.aspx?ID=1372


    Dorgan returns Abramoff money
    From Washington Times
    Wednesday, December 14, 2005

    The top Democrat on the Senate committee investigating casino lobbyist Jack Abra
    moff is returning $67,000 in donations after press reports showed that he collected the money from Mr. Abramoff's gambling clients around the time he took actions favorable to those clients.

    --------------

    The NRSC has begun circulating among fellow Republicans new reports showing that all but five of the chamber's 44 Democrats have taken Abramoff-related money. In addition, the Democratic National Committee, the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee and the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee have taken more than $1.2 million, according to records provided to The Washington Times.

    In total, Senate Democrats and their national committees have accepted $3.1 million, compared with $4.3 million in contributions to Republicans from Mr. Abramoff, his clients and his associates.

    ---------------------

    Democrats, meanwhile, have been attacking Sen. Conrad Burns, Montana Republican, who received $150,000 in contributions from Mr. Abramoff, his tribal clients and his associates. Democrats have run ads citing the federal investigation into Mr. Burns' association with Mr. Abramoff and accused him of associating with a "shady character."

    But the NRSC says the same scrutiny should be focused on Michigan's two Democrat senators -- Carl Levin and Debbie Stabenow. They received about $6,000 each in Abramoff-related money.

    Washington Times story quoted here (since I don't subcribe to online articles): http://www.gopsenators.com/newsdesk/...e.aspx?ID=1374
    BLOOMBERG: In the last week, two Democrats have said they're returning donations from Indian tribes represented by Abramoff and from his associates. Senator Byron Dorgan of North Dakota -- the top Democrat on a committee investigating the lobbyist -- gave back $67,000. Senator Max Baucus of Montana is returning $18,893.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...cKJc&refer=us#
    Dozens send back lobbyist's donations
    Lawmakers fear link to Abramoff


    Montana Senators Max Baucus, a Democrat, and Conrad Burns, a Republican, were the latest to return Abramoff-connected cash.

    Baucus returned $18,892, including $1,892 he had failed to report for use of Abramoff's skybox at a Washington, D.C., sports arena.

    ------------------

    Senator Byron Dorgan, a North Dakota Democrat who, like Burns, sits on a congressional committee that oversees Indian tribes' issues, returned $67,000 in Abramoff-related donations a few days before Burns and Baucus gave back their campaign cash.

    ''Members of Congress try to hold onto as much money as possible, until it becomes politically distasteful to hold onto it," said David Donnelly, national campaigns director for the Public Campaign Action Fund.

    --------------------

    Abramoff spread his money around to lawmakers and candidates in both parties.

    According to an analysis prepared by the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics, Abramoff and his clients doled out more than $4.4 million to candidates since 2000, with $1.5 million of the money going to Democrats.

    http://www.boston.com/news/nation/wa...sts_donations/

    I hope these are enough examples for the moment as it is getting very late. The point simply being.....claiming no Dems are involved simply because they are not on the current list at this VERY moment is extremely premature and taking a political shot on inconclusive evidence during the beginning of an on going investigation.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 01/30/2006 at 06:24 AM.
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    That Bush is not up to the challenge is the view of the majority of the US citizens (presently, 52% say his presidency is a failure), so I am in good company: Poll results
    Not so fast...

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Bush_Job_Approval.htm

    Bush's approval rating has clearly been trending up (despite the NSA-surveillance issue, I might add) and his disaprove numbers have been trending down.

    Does this mean you're wrong and getting more-so each day?
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    #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I not quite too sure what to make of it, but it is another carrot to add to the stew.

    http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?...rticleId=10924
    Your own cite blows your argument out of the water. It comes right out and says in the first paragraph that the majority of the money went to the republicans and a much lower sum went to the democrats. Guilty is Guilty.
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