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  1. cardio's Avatar
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    #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    In that case, Bush must be a Liberal, or which of the following is based on facts and logic, in your view:
    - War against WMD in Iraq
    - Nomination of Harriet Miers
    - Nomination of Michael "Heck of a job" Brown
    - Trust in people like Enron's CEO Ken Lay
    - The "Terry Schiavo is not braindead and may recover" case
    - Support for "Intelligent" Design
    - etc.
    YAWN, more babbling from clulup. Nothing but his own form of a dripping faucet, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip over and over.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
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  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    YAWN, more babbling from clulup. Nothing but his own form of a dripping faucet, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip over and over.
    Feeling helpless, got no argument? Why not try an ad hominem attack?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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    #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Feeling helpless, got no argument? Why not try an ad hominem attack?
    Yeah, I agree that is your MO. You attempt to attack the president or America every chance you get.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
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  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Yeah, I agree that is your MO. You attempt to attack the president or America every chance you get.
    Why is calling Pres. Bush a liberal an 'attack'. (It isnt in my book. -it's ok to be a liberal or conservative.)
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    #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Why is calling Pres. Bush a liberal an 'attack'. (It isnt in my book. -it's ok to be a liberal or conservative.)
    It is not in reference to just this post. Look at the vast majority of the post form clulup and you will note the trend of bashing. The irony of the situation is as soon as someone calls him on rehashing the same statements over and over and over, regardless of if they relate to the current topic he cries "you are attacking me". His post was a stab at the president by insinuating that the president did not use facts for going to war with Iraq (even though the majority of the world all felt he had or was close to acquiring WMDs at the time), nomination of supreme court justice, etc etc.

    If he had simple said I feel President Bush is a liberal fine, but he had to rehash the same old same old again
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
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  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    In that case, Bush must be a Liberal, or which of the following is based on facts and logic, in your view:
    Since you insist on re-losing the same battles over and over...
    - War against WMD in Iraq
    as the facts were known prior to the war - Iraq had WMD and had used them in the past. They had suspected connections to terrorists. The President came to the logical conclusion based on those facts that Iraq posed a threat to the US and acted.
    - Nomination of Harriet Miers
    You got me there. That nomination was idiotic - but says nothing about Bush's conservative or liberal worldview.
    - Nomination of Michael "Heck of a job" Brown
    Can you name a government in the world at any level that has eradicated cronyism? Again, this says nothing about Bush's conservative or liberal worldview.
    - Trust in people like Enron's CEO Ken Lay
    Guilt by association? McCarthyism! Bush has done more to clean up corporate accounting than any other predident I can think of. Maybe you can name one I'm forgetting?
    - The "Terry Schiavo is not braindead and may recover" case
    Uh, she was, in fact, NOT brain-dead. She had expressed no indisputable wish to not live as she was. Are you suggesting the disabled are not to be afforded the benefit of the doubt when contemplating whether or not they should be starved to death?
    - Support for "Intelligent" Design- etc.
    Which is more logical: the universe was created by some being or some force, or the universe just winked into existence of its own accord? They are both incredible propositions.

    You need to separate your apparent loathing for Bush and "fundamentalists" from your understanding of conservatism as a political and social philosophy.

    My declaration of conservatism being based in logic and facts is not a blanket endorsement of George W. Bush, the Republicans, the Church, or any other man-made institution or personality. As I stated quite clearly, I am not a Republican - some of the reasons you mention should explain why. Parties take positions for political expediency that are sometimes at odds with some of my core values. The Harriet Miers nomination would be a good example of that.

    Your critique reveals emotional arguments that you make based on your feelings about Bush and religious fundamentalists - thank you for so eloquently making my point.
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  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    His post was a stab at the president by insinuating that the president did not use facts for going to war with Iraq (even though the majority of the world all felt he had or was close to acquiring WMDs at the time), nomination of supreme court justice, etc etc.
    It is a fact that in fact there were no WMDs in Iraq, so the factual basis for his decision is in fact missing.

    However, you are suggesting that President Bush's actions in the following cases were driven by "facts and logic":
    - Nomination of Harriet Miers
    - Nomination of Michael "Heck of a job" Brown
    - Trust in people like Enron's CEO Ken Lay
    - The "Terry Schiavo is not braindead and may recover" case
    - Support for "Intelligent" Design

    I guess we must be using different definitions of fact and logic, but hey, no big deal.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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    #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    It is a fact that in fact there were no WMDs in Iraq, so the factual basis for his decision is in fact missing.

    However, you are suggesting that President Bush's actions in the following cases were driven by "facts and logic":
    - Nomination of Harriet Miers
    - Nomination of Michael "Heck of a job" Brown
    - Trust in people like Enron's CEO Ken Lay
    - The "Terry Schiavo is not braindead and may recover" case
    - Support for "Intelligent" Design

    I guess we must be using different definitions of fact and logic, but hey, no big deal.
    Are you suggesting that prior to the invasion, the majority of the intelligence agencies from around the world believed Saddam did not have nor was he able to acquire WMDs?

    I am only asking about your first opinion, no need to go any further. As normal, you make a statement and expect everyone to believe you. Please show me the evidence that prior to the invasion the majority of the world's intelligence agencies believed there was no threat of WMD's. If possible use statements made prior to the invasion, I am tired of seeing the after the fact statements.
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    #109  
    honest to god, this is so tired. clulup digging around for arguments against america as usual... yawn, yawn, yawn. its the same... old.... crap... over and over and over and over.... its just... bland. I can see broaching topics tastefully now and then... but this... ill tell ya... this is just sad. variety is the spice of life. for him to be endlessly stuck on the same broken record like this speaks volumes.
    Last edited by vw2002; 01/27/2006 at 12:13 AM.
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Since you insist on re-losing the same battles over and over...as the facts were known prior to the war - Iraq had WMD and had used them in the past. They had suspected connections to terrorists. The President came to the logical conclusion based on those facts that Iraq posed a threat to the US and acted.You got me there. That nomination was idiotic - but says nothing about Bush's conservative or liberal worldview.Can you name a government in the world at any level that has eradicated cronyism? Again, this says nothing about Bush's conservative or liberal worldview.Guilt by association? McCarthyism! Bush has done more to clean up corporate accounting than any other predident I can think of. Maybe you can name one I'm forgetting?Uh, she was, in fact, NOT brain-dead. She had expressed no indisputable wish to not live as she was. Are you suggesting the disabled are not to be afforded the benefit of the doubt when contemplating whether or not they should be starved to death?Which is more logical: the universe was created by some being or some force, or the universe just winked into existence of its own accord? They are both incredible propositions.

    You need to separate your apparent loathing for Bush and "fundamentalists" from your understanding of conservatism as a political and social philosophy.

    My declaration of conservatism being based in logic and facts is not a blanket endorsement of George W. Bush, the Republicans, the Church, or any other man-made institution or personality. As I stated quite clearly, I am not a Republican - some of the reasons you mention should explain why. Parties take positions for political expediency that are sometimes at odds with some of my core values. The Harriet Miers nomination would be a good example of that.

    Your critique reveals emotional arguments that you make based on your feelings about Bush and religious fundamentalists - thank you for so eloquently making my point.
    So lets briefly summarize some of your points above:
    WMD in Iraq: Misconception
    Harriet Miers: Idiocy ("idiotic", as you put it)
    Michael Brown: Cronyism
    Ken Lay: Just bad luck Ken was one of Bush's best pals and supporters
    Intelligent Design: Religious belief

    So, which of the above fits to "facts and logic", in your view? Idiocy, cronyism and religious belief hardly qualify as logic and fact.

    The conservative position is not based on facts and logic any more than the liberal one (probably not less either), it's just your personal bias which makes the decisions look more logical to you.

    As to the other posts: there's no need for another Iraq thread...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  11. #111  
    Sorry, clulup, but I have no intention to defend the conservative bona fides of George W. Bush. The things you point out are his position as a Republican politician. As I thought I made clear, I am not a Republican.

    As to my personal bias - I also admitted to a personal bias. You might also wish to note that I said I used to be a liberal but was persuaded of the superiority of conservatism. Have you been on both sides of the fence?
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  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    You might also wish to note that I said I used to be a liberal but was persuaded of the superiority of conservatism. Have you been on both sides of the fence?
    There's the famous quote by Winston Churchill: "If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain."

    The quote is interesting because (a) Churchill never said anything of that sort, and (b) Churchill was a Conservative at age 25 and a Liberal at age 35...

    I am indeed a Liberal, however not in the US sense, but in the "Middle European" sense, where liberal means little intervention of the state in economic affairs, so it is more or less the opposite of "left" (though I am certainly a social liberal, not the selfish, greedy variant apparently predominant in other places).

    I was somewhat left when I was young, so yes, I have been on different sides of the fence. But I certainly never was conservative. Conservatism is the misconception that things used to be better in the past and therefore need conservation... It's an anti-progress belief system. "Liberal" in the true sense means "free", free from prejudice, free to set the goals and achieve them in a rational way, without the burden of religious and other dogmas.
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    #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    There's the famous quote by Winston Churchill: "If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain."

    The quote is interesting because (a) Churchill never said anything of that sort, and (b) Churchill was a Conservative at age 25 and a Liberal at age 35...

    I am indeed a Liberal, however not in the US sense, but in the "Middle European" sense, where liberal means little intervention of the state in economic affairs, so it is more or less the opposite of "left" (though I am certainly a social liberal, not the selfish, greedy variant apparently predominant in other places).

    I was somewhat left when I was young, so yes, I have been on different sides of the fence. But I certainly never was conservative. Conservatism is the misconception that things used to be better in the past and therefore need conservation... It's an anti-progress belief system. "Liberal" in the true sense means "free", free from prejudice, free to set the goals and achieve them in a rational way, without the burden of religious and other dogmas.
    Man, I just about pissed my pants when I read clulup say he was free from prejudice. Once I regained control, I realized he did not include his prejudice against America and President Bush to be true prejudice since everyone knows that he and the swiss are so much better than us poor commoners here in America.
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  14. NRG
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       #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    NRG.....don't tell me this is going to be another one of those....Hobbes answer this one....I do, asking your thoughts on my answers to your questions......and never hear from you again situation!?!
    Hobbes sorry it took so long to get back to you, I have been rather busy with a new project.

    No I don't think your points are off base at all. I think the one thing we need to look at as far as donations go is when the money came in. Some of the tribes that gave through JA were giving to the Dems before they were JA clients. In fact after they became JA clients their donations to the dems decreased. Plus some of the contributions given by these folks have tradionally been given to dems cause they are in their respective district. It is very complicated and I won't claim to know all specifics, but from what I have seen JA never gave to dems.
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Man, I just about pissed my pants when I read clulup say he was free from prejudice. Once I regained control, I realized he did not include his prejudice against America and President Bush to be true prejudice since everyone knows that he and the swiss are so much better than us poor commoners here in America.
    That Bush is not up to the challenge is the view of the majority of the US citizens (presently, 52% say his presidency is a failure), so I am in good company: Poll results
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    #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    That Bush is not up to the challenge is the view of the majority of the US citizens (presently, 52% say his presidency is a failure), so I am in good company: Poll results
    On of clulup's favorite tactics

    If you don't like the subject or can not formulate an answer
    CHANGE SUBJECT!!!!
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  17. NRG
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       #117  
    Hmm. The hits keep comin' for the Grand Ole' Party.

    Source: Yahoo!

    Ariz. Court Orders Lawmaker Out of Office (Republican)
    By PAUL DAVENPORT, Associated Press Writer 51 minutes ago

    PHOENIX - An Arizona legislator has been removed from office for overspending during his 2004 primary race, making him the first lawmaker in the country to be ousted for violating a state's public campaign financing system.

    After a five-month court battle, the Arizona Supreme Court on Thursday ordered first-term Republican Rep. David Burnell Smith to leave office at midnight.

    "I will no longer exercise any duties as a representative," the 64-year-old lawyer said Friday.

    Under Arizon's 1998 Clean Elections Law, candidates who voluntarily participate must collect a set number of $5 contributions from voters to qualify for public funding. In return, they must adhere to certain spending limits.

    -snip-
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    #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Hmm. The hits keep comin' for the Grand Ole' Party.
    As I have said, if they did the crime, let em do the time. Don't care what party they are or who they are married to.
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  19. NRG
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       #119  
    Wanted to add an easy to understand graphic.

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    #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Wanted to add an easy to understand graphic.

    Unfortunately too many people believe that graphic is the truth. If it is the party I align myself with it is OK, if it is the other party it has to be wrong.
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